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Lots of people learning Java

Daniel Rhoades
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
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Is it me or in the last few months, has the number of Indian people trying to learn Java risen as dramatic as the number of company's outsourcing there telesales teams to India?

I wonder if there is a link, is outsourcing set to continue to web/application development too?

I also have met many people here in the UK that are just learning Java to make money - where has development passion gone... coding for 14hrs a day for the love of it!

BTW: I'm not a racist person at all - this is just an interesting observation!


Drinking more tea is the key...
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Indians always try to learn stuff that will bring money to the pocket. Hardly anything new on that front.

They are enthusiastic to learn new stuff and always willing to bend and try their best to do that.

If your eyes just opened to figure that out, welcome to the new millenium.


Kishore
SCJP, blog
Daniel Rhoades
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 186
I figured that was the case, but it just seem to of risen lately. I wondered if there is currently a push to outsource development out that way, the same way people like British Telecom are doing at the moment to save some ���.

Just curious...
kayal cox
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Joined: Aug 19, 2004
Posts: 376
Are you basing your observations on any kind of statistics? if so, can you please post the links to the source?

Thanks.
Daniel Rhoades
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 186
No official stats, but I'm receiving increasing offers (telesales) to partner with Indian based firms for PHP and Java development work.

Again, this isn't really a super-serious question (Im not meaning to offend anybody), I just wondered if there were any large company's in the news outsourcing their development work over-seas (not India specifically) in order to cut costs.
Mike Gershman
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Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
Are you basing your observations on any kind of statistics? if so, can you please post the links to the source?

This is harder than it sounds, at least in the US, because the current administration does not always keep statistics when it may not like the results.

However, some private researchers have collected solid statistics. You can start with the extensive and well documented work of of Prof. Norman Matloff of UC Davis "Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage".
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html

Then there is the book "Outsourcing America: What's Behind Our National Crisis And How We Can Reclaim American Jobs" by Prof. Ron Hira of RIT, which is coming out next month (ISBN 0814408680). I recently saw Ron's slides and they are breathtaking.

There are ways to defend the current situation, but lack of solid data is no longer one of them.


Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:

I recently saw Ron's slides and they are breathtaking.



Irrespective of content of Ron's book; what is happening is not breathtaking. It is bound to happen because of different technology innovations in the last decade or so. These made physical presence of resource of medium IQ irrelavant. So, there is now insourcing to some less than famous tech savvy towns like Tulsa,OK and Des Moines,Iowa getting lot of jobs and tech relocations.
Arjunkumar Shastry
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Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:
Is it me or in the last few months, has the number of Indian people trying to learn Java risen as dramatic as the number of company's outsourcing there telesales teams to India?

IMO,number of people learning Java has reduced in India compared to period 1998-2001.As Kishore said it correctly,people will try to learn anything that will earn them money.This happens in every country,but here percentage might be more as Govt.jobs are stagnant and relatively less growth in other sectors.(For soldier recruitment of Indian Army,there are average 20 applicants for one post out of which 19 are rejected and one is hired!!)
The reason behind people learning Java have reduced are:
1)more jobs of tech support/problem fixing.
2)Outsourcing of jobs which involve software products like SAP/Peoplesoft etc.I have seen people working on these areas are much more than people working on swing/struts.
3)Increasing .Net popularity.


Namma Suvarna Karnataka
Helen Thomas
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Joined: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 1759
The next new language is surely on the horizon as we speak.


Le Cafe Mouse - Helen's musings on the web - Java Skills and Thrills
"God who creates and is nature is very difficult to understand, but he is not arbitrary or malicious." OR "God does not play dice." - Einstein
Daniel Rhoades
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 186
Interesting, thanks for all your replies
Mike Gershman
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Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
Kishore Dandu said:
what is happening is not breathtaking. It is bound to happen because of different technology innovations in the last decade or so. These made physical presence of resource of medium IQ irrelavant.

Off-shoring is inevitable, misuse of the H1B program is not.

H1B visas are intended to bring in foreign professionals at market salaries when no US professionals are available. This simple concept has been changed into a flood of lower-paid workers in direct competition with US workers.

Competition, even fair competition, between US workers and H1B visa holders is outside the intent, and often the letter, of the law.

Greed has overcome common sense and businesses are blatently going beyond the law to preferentially hire visa holders:
http://www.coderanch.com/forums/
This practice has now been well documented and it is up to the injured parties, US professionals, to insist that the laws be tightened and fully enforced. This will take more work but it is already happening.

There will be an adjustment period as college students and legacy programmers learn Java and .net, as companies are forced to reopen the job title "entry level programmer", and as age discrimination laws are strictly enforced (you can't ask anything of a 40-year-old applicant that you don't ask of a 20-year-old applicant - that's the law!). I notice that Sun is now constructing a new certification, "Java Associate", specifically based on input from "an expert who knows exactly what you'd be looking for when hiring an entry level programmer into your team".

The end result will be that work that can go offshore will still go offshore and work that must be done in the US will be done by Americans.
[ March 12, 2005: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
Kishore Dandu said:

Off-shoring is inevitable, misuse of the H1B program is not.

H1B visas are intended to bring in foreign professionals at market salaries when no US professionals are available. This simple concept has been changed into a flood of lower-paid workers in direct competition with US workers.

Competition, even fair competition, between US workers and H1B visa holders is outside the intent, and often the letter, of the law.

Greed has overcome common sense and businesses are blatently going beyond the law to preferentially hire visa holders:
http://www.coderanch.com/forums/
This practice has now been well documented and it is up to the injured parties, US professionals, to insist that the laws be tightened and fully enforced. This will take more work but it is already happening.

There will be an adjustment period as college students and legacy programmers learn Java and .net, as companies are forced to reopen the job title "entry level programmer", and as age discrimination laws are strictly enforced (you can't ask anything of a 40-year-old applicant that you don't ask of a 20-year-old applicant - that's the law!). I notice that Sun is now constructing a new certification, "Java Associate", specifically based on input from "an expert who knows exactly what you'd be looking for when hiring an entry level programmer into your team".

The end result will be that work that can go offshore will still go offshore and work that must be done in the US will be done by Americans.

[ March 12, 2005: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]



We were discussing about off-shoring in this topic. Please do not hijack the post.

If you have problems with H1 programs/ people of H1 visa or H1 abuses etc, you are welcome to start a new post and proceed from there.
soniya saxena
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Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
Very true
Mike manages to turn every post into his personal grouse against H1Bs.
Mike,

Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:



We were discussing about off-shoring in this topic. Please do not hijack the post.

If you have problems with H1 programs/ people of H1 visa or H1 abuses etc, you are welcome to start a new post and proceed from there.
Mike Gershman
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Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
The original post of this thread, by Daniel Rhoades:
Is it me or in the last few months, has the number of Indian people trying to learn Java risen as dramatic as the number of company's outsourcing there telesales teams to India?

I wonder if there is a link, is outsourcing set to continue to web/application development too?

I also have met many people here in the UK that are just learning Java to make money - where has development passion gone... coding for 14hrs a day for the love of it!

BTW: I'm not a racist person at all - this is just an interesting observation!


The original topic was more people in India and the UK learning Java.

Kayal Cox challenged Daniel to provide "statistics" and I provided some data.

Kishore suggested inevitability, not of offshoring but of outsourcing to Tulsa,OK and Des Moines,Iowa, cities in the US. This does involve visa holders. I suggested that this is not inevitable if the laws are enforced.

How have I changed the topic?
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Mike Gershman:
This practice has now been well documented and it is up to the injured parties, US professionals, to insist that the laws be tightened and fully enforced. <h1>This will take more work but it is already happening.</h1>

Can you please provide more information on what is already happening?

Thanks,
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
The original post of this thread, by Daniel Rhoades:

Kishore suggested inevitability, not of offshoring but of outsourcing to Tulsa,OK and Des Moines,Iowa, cities in the US. This does involve visa holders. I suggested that this is not inevitable if the laws are enforced.

How have I changed the topic?


Visa holders are part and parcel of tech companies irrespective of location(either San Jose or Dallas or Des Moines or Tulsa).

I was just explaining different outsourcing scenarios happening in addition to offshoring.
Daniel Rhoades
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 186
It is a valid concern to protect one's job security, and I believe it is right to evaluate people entering a country looking for a particular type of job, to ensure that people already present in the country will not suffer job loss as a result of a high influx of people moving into the country with those particular skills.

I believe Austrailia has a strong policy towards this.

Although it my initial thread message did not specifically state this, I think its a valid extension.
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:


I believe Austrailia has a strong policy towards this.



Lately even Australia relaxed their visa norms for tech folks. Couple of guys that I know got their green cards there in no time, compared to long periods in US. What takes....
Mike Gershman
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Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
This will take more work but it is already happening.
Can you please provide more information on what is already happening?

Start with this link:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
I will post more info later.
K Riaz
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Joined: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 375
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:
Is it me or in the last few months, has the number of Indian people trying to learn Java risen as dramatic as the number of company's outsourcing there telesales teams to India?

I wonder if there is a link, is outsourcing set to continue to web/application development too?

I also have met many people here in the UK that are just learning Java to make money - where has development passion gone... coding for 14hrs a day for the love of it!


But how many of those learning Java will actually find a good Java job?
Daniel Rhoades
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 186
Thats probably cause all the Austrailians are here in the UK

i.e no skilled IT labour left down under!

In London + surrounding area, UK there are loads of Austrailians/NZ in IT over here, all good folk though!
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:

In London + surrounding area, UK there are loads of Austrailians/NZ in IT over here, all good folk though!


Can you give me what 'good' measuresup as in your criteria?
Daniel Rhoades
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 186
I have several Indian friends (esp. from my Uni years), they are just not in IT... however they are also good folk
K Riaz
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Joined: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 375
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:

In London + surrounding area, UK there are loads of Austrailians/NZ in IT over here, all good folk though!


Thats very true, we had a new australian web services person start last month. Like all Australians, his very friendly.
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:

Start with this link:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
I will post more info later.


Thanks Mike.
Eric Lemaitre
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Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Mike !

Start with this link:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
I will post more info later.


OK, but... so what ?
Many people are whining about the facts related in such works, and all agree, but what is done by the relevant politicians who should take such things into account ? Nothing for now, and even worse the H1B caps are still raised to include new university alien freshers who will make native US IT start jobs even harder. So laws voted despite this situation simply enforce the problem and even legitimate it.

IMHO such reports are totally useless as long as nothing is done in response. I even begin to wonder whether any such problem simply exists, as all government actions till then go in the very same direction, making alien immigration increase by different additionnal ways.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Mike Gershman
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Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
OK, but... so what ?


1. If you go back over many of the threads on this BB, you will see many posts that say "Where is your hard data?" Now there is hard data on H1B/L1 abuse.

2. Many lawmakers really believed that there was a desparate programmer shortage in the US justifying massive imports of temporary workers. They are being educated that the only shortage is of visa holders willing to accept McWages. Everything takes time in Washington, but the wheels are turning.

Note: McWages = substandard wages, as in McDonalds.
Eric Lemaitre
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Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Mike !

...Now there is hard data on H1B/L1 abuse. ...Everything takes time in Washington, but the wheels are turning.

Don't get misled Mike, I totally agree with the final conclusion and proposal of "http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html", I even am in favor of eliminating DV lottery to replace it with the new H1B program proposal it suggests, so that USA only immigrants are labor qualified instead of randomly chosen.

But the issue is that even best ideas are as long as they are not applied. Lawmakers are thinking you say, but WHEN will something be done ? 10 years, 20 years, ... ? I will believe it when I see it, and it takes so long that even if it comes one day situation will have changed so much it won't be relevant again, hence my "so what ?". Solutions only thought are useless, only applied solutions may be useful.

Best regards.
Anselm Paulinus
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Joined: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 389
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi Mike !

...Now there is hard data on H1B/L1 abuse. ...Everything takes time in Washington, but the wheels are turning.

Don't get misled Mike, I totally agree with the final conclusion and proposal of "http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html", I even am in favor of eliminating DV lottery to replace it with the new H1B program proposal it suggests, so that USA only immigrants are labor qualified instead of randomly chosen.
Best regards.


Government like equity; equity like nature does not act in vain.
Have you considered eliminating the H1B program so that there is no migration to the USA at all, be it labor qualified or not; at least you are still more productive where ever you are than one who is not labor qualified.
Kishore Dandu
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Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Anselm Paulinus:


Government like equity; equity like nature does not act in vain.
Have you considered eliminating the H1B program so that there is no migration to the USA at all, be it labor qualified or not; at least you are still more productive where ever you are than one who is not labor qualified.


The tech companies in US will be screwed if H1 visa is eliminated. I can see many of these firms going down the pipe if that happens.

There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US.
kayal cox
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Joined: Aug 19, 2004
Posts: 376
Mike: There are ways to defend the current situation, but lack of solid data is no longer one of them.


Oh, I was not at all defending the situation. In fact, I was not even offering my comments or opinions on it.

My intention of asking for statistics was to understand if there was indeed many more people learning Java than before (as against .Net, DBA etc..), and did not have anything to do with offshoring. I should have probably mentioned what statistics I was looking for.
[ March 15, 2005: Message edited by: kayal cox ]
Anselm Paulinus
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Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:


The tech companies in US will be screwed if H1 visa is eliminated. I can see many of these firms going down the pipe if that happens.

There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US.


In a simillar vain Fast food and security providing companies will be screwed without unskilled labors; there are real needs for the unskilled labors. In Economics; the price of a commodity does not depend on the amount of time spent in producing the commodity but on the forces of demand and supply. If there are shortage of unskilled workers the cost of hiring one will be almost as high as the cost of hiring an IT worker. Within the last four years that the demand for IT skills fell short of supply; wages of IT professionals fell by 25%; and those in the labor force put in more effort to remain at the labor force. No one is indispensable and the government knew precisely what it was doing by virtue of the green card lotto.
Kishore Dandu
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Originally posted by Anselm Paulinus:


In a simillar vain Fast food and security providing companies will be screwed without unskilled labors; there are real needs for the unskilled labors. In Economics; the price of a commodity does not depend on the amount of time spent in producing the commodity but on the forces of demand and supply. If there are shortage of unskilled workers the cost of hiring one will be almost as high as the cost of hiring an IT worker. Within the last four years that the demand for IT skills fell short of supply; wages of IT professionals fell by 25%; and those in the labor force put in more effort to remain at the labor force. No one is indispensable and the government knew precisely what it was doing by virtue of the green card lotto.


As far as I remember Green card lottery is there for quite some time. It is designed only for under-represented countries. SO, countries like India, UK etc are not-qualified to apply for it. It has no relavance to H1-visa numbers etc.
Mike Gershman
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Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
Kishore said:
The tech companies in US will be screwed if H1 visa is eliminated. I can see many of these firms going down the pipe if that happens.

There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US.

In my considerable experience, the most talented programmers take under two years to be highly productive. Retrained legacy programmers take even less time. At present, there is excess capacity in most US university Computer Science departments and there is no shortage of potential students if the jobs came back.

Since H1B visas last 3 years with one renewal outside the quota, I don't see how there will be any problem replacing repatriating visa holders with permanent US residents.

You could argue price competition, but many of these jobs are the US end of an off-shored project, so they don't sink the budget.

I do believe that there must be much more selectivity then during the bubble. Gerald Weinberg showed years ago that a good programmer is over ten times as productive as an average programmer. Productivity is a bigger cost driver than raw salary.
peter wooster
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Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
The tech companies in US will be screwed if H1 visa is eliminated. I can see many of these firms going down the pipe if that happens.

There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US.


Please explain exactly what resource is missing in the U.S. It appears that IT companies in Canada are doing quite well, without a visa like H1. There are plenty of Indian workers here, but they are mostly landed immigrants, the equivalent of green card, the rest are Canadian citizens.
Kishore Dandu
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Originally posted by peter wooster:


Please explain exactly what resource is missing in the U.S. It appears that IT companies in Canada are doing quite well, without a visa like H1. There are plenty of Indian workers here, but they are mostly landed immigrants, the equivalent of green card, the rest are Canadian citizens.


Irrespective of how good canadian IT firms are doing, the preferred destination for IT immigrants is US(compared to Canada). US has stricter immigration policy with respect to granting Green cards compared to Canada(& Australia lately)
Kishore Dandu
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Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
Kishore said:

In my considerable experience, the most talented programmers take under two years to be highly productive. Retrained legacy programmers take even less time. At present, there is excess capacity in most US university Computer Science departments and there is no shortage of potential students if the jobs came back.

Since H1B visas last 3 years with one renewal outside the quota, I don't see how there will be any problem replacing repatriating visa holders with permanent US residents.

You could argue price competition, but many of these jobs are the US end of an off-shored project, so they don't sink the budget.

I do believe that there must be much more selectivity then during the bubble. Gerald Weinberg showed years ago that a good programmer is over ten times as productive as an average programmer. Productivity is a bigger cost driver than raw salary.


I agree that there are many college graduates waiting for a entry-level opportunity. The problem comes with their salary expectation. That is why(not in all but in many cases I observed) they are left out of consideration. Simple logic of supply and demand.
peter wooster
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Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:

Irrespective of how good canadian IT firms are doing, the preferred destination for IT immigrants is US(compared to Canada). US has stricter immigration policy with respect to granting Green cards compared to Canada(& Australia lately)


Please directly address my question. The question was "Please explain exactly what resource is missing in the U.S.?" In that question I was asking for clarification of your statement that "There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US."
Kishore Dandu
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Posts: 1934
Originally posted by peter wooster:


Please directly address my question. The question was "Please explain exactly what resource is missing in the U.S.?" In that question I was asking for clarification of your statement that "There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US."


Thanks for asking a question clearly.

The resources missing are
a) Hardware engineers(from my discussions with enterpreneuars from bay area)
b) Entry level IT staff who can work for reasonable market wages(since people from schools like Berkley expect about 80K per year just out of school).
Mike Gershman
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Posts: 1272
Kishore said:
people from schools like Berkley expect about 80K per year just out of school)

That is absolutely wrong!

I recently graduated with a MS - Computer Science from NYU's Courant Institute and I know that the fresher graduates expect far less money.

In your opinion, what salary expectation would result in a US job offer for a top recent graduate without commercial Java experience?
[ March 16, 2005: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]
 
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