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what cirtificates company expect for architect job ?

pooja jain
greenhorn
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Joined: Jan 12, 2005
Posts: 213
what cirtificates ( minimum ) require to become an architect . I know the quiestion is tricky but should have some answer . do you hire a person as a software architect if he/she has SCJP , SCWCD cirtificate or you expect some more cirtificate ?

thanks .
pooja .


:d
Barry Gaunt
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Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Posts: 7729
This question is not really specific to SCJP, I think it possibly belongs in the Jobs Discussion Forum.


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Sania Marsh
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Joined: Jul 12, 2004
Posts: 469
I would expect some experience rather than certification
Svend Rost
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Joined: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 904
I agree with Rite.

You need experience on big projects, and a degree
in computer science will most likely also help.

/Svend Rost
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
I've been an architect without a single certification. I don't think certifications make you an architect, but rather knowledge and experience.

--Mark
ankur rathi
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Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
I am not disagree with you all but will not cirtifications give you enough knowledge ....
Anselm Paulinus
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Joined: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 389
Mark is absolutely right, but certification can speed it up for you - Here I mean SCEA.
Svend Rost
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Joined: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 904
You might argument, that a certification never hurts, but if you have
formal training and documented expirience then there's no need for a
certification.

A SCEA alone won't get you the job... your expirience will.

/Svend Rost
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
I know SCEA's who couldn't architect systems. SCEA is more just learning what tools are out there, the subtle part is piecing them together correctly.

--Mark
ankur rathi
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Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
As I alreday told you that I am not disagree with you .
But I think , it is not the always that company will hire an already experienced , *very-very good* , *expert* architect ( actually it is not possible to find always ) so they can hire a person who has shown his/her desire to learn new technology , desire to get cirtificate etc , that may be expert in near future ...

Atleast , Junior Architect ....
soniya saxena
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Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
Plain and simple answer is EXPERIENCE if you want to become a good architect in a good company.
Sadanand Murthy
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Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382
Originally posted by rathi ji:
As I alreday told you that I am not disagree with you .
But I think , it is not the always that company will hire an already experienced , *very-very good* , *expert* architect ( actually it is not possible to find always ) so they can hire a person who has shown his/her desire to learn new technology , desire to get cirtificate etc , that may be expert in near future ...

Atleast , Junior Architect ....


If any company hires an architect based solely on certifications, then that company's software systems/apps will be a dismal failure if that person doesn't have actual work experience. And this work experience is not just taking someone else's design and coding a component. Architecting solutions requires a lot more than just the desire to learn new technology. I've interviewed candidates who have listed their titles as Architect, Application Architect, Tech. Lead etc with years of experience (according to their resumes). Most of such candidates have failed miserably in the interviews. Even for the role of a sr. developer. Many of such candidates that I've interviewed didn't have the java/j2ee technical skills/knowledge commensurate with the years of work experience in java/j2ee.

I personally will not care a whit for the certifications, especially if I'm interviewing the candidate for a lead/architet position.


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K Riaz
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Joined: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 375
Employers will be wary of certified people with no experience, as they tend to want to learn, instead of do, like people with P.hDs.

You know what they say, good candidates don't need certifications. However, I don't blame you for trying.
[ March 18, 2005: Message edited by: Kashif Riaz ]
Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
Bartender

Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3476

Well, I'm not the best person to talk here, but here is MHO :
Certifications don't make you a programmer, developer of an architect.
Only the real world experience and real projects make you an architect, (big company is a huge bonous, I think).
In addition, you will need :
Good leadership.
Communications skills (with your team) .
Confidence & patient.
Bye.
[ March 18, 2005: Message edited by: John Todd ]
peter wooster
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Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
One thing that I need an answer to is "what is an architect?". Is this what we used to call a systems analyst? Those were guys who understood the business but couldn't program their way out of a paper bag, but they drew nice flowcharts and truth tables (nowadays that would be UML).
Svend Rost
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Joined: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 904
Good question Peter.

The simple answer would be: those who creates architectures.

A broadly accepted definition of software architecture is the one stated by Bass et al.:
The software architecture of a program or computing system is the structure or structures of the system, which comprise software elements, the externally visible properties of those elements, and the relationships among them.

We have to distinguish between a junior architect, who primarily is a technologist, and the senior architect who primarily is a strategist.

An architect needs to be competent in several domains:
- Technology
You take a system viewpoint, you model, make tradeoff analyses and prototypes.
- Business knowleadge
As a good technologist you create good architectures, as a strategist you create the right architecture for your organization.
- People skill
If you don't have the necessary people skill, you will have problems motivation your team, communication with people on many levels of the organzation ect.

My 0,2 �

/Svend Rost
ankur rathi
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Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
Originally posted by John Todd:

In addition, you will need :

Good leadership.
Communications skills (with your team) .
Confidence & patient.


I am agree with you but these are additional thing ( as you also mentioned ... ) the main thing is technical knowledge & awareness , right .

And it comes from only experience , this is totally wrong . cirtificates gives you chance to read something ...
soniya saxena
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Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
Nope, it is not wrong. There is no substitute for experience. Experience comes first. This can be further complemented by certifications.

Originally posted by rathi ji:

And it comes from only experience , this is totally wrong . cirtificates gives you chance to read something ...
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Let me ask you this, there's a big hair complex bomb 20 feet for you that's about to go off, and there are two guys to defuse it, one who has defused bomb's for the past 5 years (maybe not bombs quite so complex, but similar in nature) and the second guy who says, "I haven't actually defused a bomb, but I've got a certificate in bomb disarmament." Who do you want to touch that bomb? :-)

--Mark
Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
Bartender

Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3476

Well, I'm not against certifications, I hold some of them !
certifications are absolutly useful (well, not all certifications ofcourse), certifications can sharpen your knowledge, and they are fun to study (currently, I'm preparing for SCDJWS).
I remember when I started to prepare for SCJP, I was surprised, alot of things that I don't know any thing about them .
Certifications can give you the taste of developing or architecting, but not the experience.
IMHO, even colleage degrees don't make you a doctor, a lower or a developer.
colleage degrees say :
You are a candidate to be a doctor, you can be a doctor, but you are not a doctor.
To be a doctor you have to work and get experience.
I think the same is true for certifications ...
And that was funny Mark
ankur rathi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Let me ask you this, there's a big hair complex bomb 20 feet for you that's about to go off, and there are two guys to defuse it, one who has defused bomb's for the past 5 years (maybe not bombs quite so complex, but similar in nature) and the second guy who says, "I haven't actually defused a bomb, but I've got a certificate in bomb disarmament." Who do you want to touch that bomb? :-)

--Mark


And if you have two guys one is who has cirtification in bomb defusion & one who even don't have this cirtification then whom do you choose ...
Varun Khanna
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2002
Posts: 1400
Originally posted by rathi ji:


And if you have two guys one is who has cirtification in bomb defusion & one who even don't have this cirtification then whom do you choose ...


I will choose bomb (not cErtification or experience).
[ March 19, 2005: Message edited by: Varun Khanna ]

- Varun
K Riaz
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 375
Originally posted by rathi ji:


And if you have two guys one is who has cirtification in bomb defusion & one who even don't have this cirtification then whom do you choose ...


I would wonder what the hell someone would be doing in a bomb defusing unit if he/she didn't had neither any experience AND certification.

If you pass a Driving test (similar to certification), you will only become a good driver after many years of driving (i.e. experience), but be at your most dangerous when you first drive AFTER passing.
[ March 19, 2005: Message edited by: Kashif Riaz ]
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by Kashif Riaz:

I would wonder what the hell someone would be doing in a bomb defusing unit if he/she didn't had neither any experience AND certification.
...


It could be very difficult to find people with experience defusing bombs, especially the big hairy kind. As the old saying about parachuting goes "why practice something you can only do wrong once".
Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
Bartender

Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3476

Let me ask you rathi :
If there is a bomb, which person you will use :
Person with 5 years of experience in bombs or
Person who has a certificate but no experience ?
And if your were a manager and your boss asked you to find an architect for the company, what you will do ?
Hire and experienced architect or
Hire a person holds SCEA ??
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by John Todd:
Hire and experienced architect or
Hire a person holds SCEA ??


What about a Systems Analyst with 25 years experience with CICS and COBOL and an SCEA who knows your business domain like the back of her hand?
ankur rathi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
Originally posted by John Todd:
Let me ask you rathi :
If there is a bomb, which person you will use :
Person with 5 years of experience in bombs or
Person who has a certificate but no experience ?
And if your were a manager and your boss asked you to find an architect for the company, what you will do ?
Hire and experienced architect or
Hire a person holds SCEA ??


Guys & gals , why you are understanding me wrong ...

I am not comparing an experienced person & a person who holds cirtificates , I am comparing a person who has cirtificates & one who don't ...

One more thing , experience comes *automatically* you don't have to do *anything* for that , so taking cirtificates with job ( experience ) is much more beneficial ...
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
You have to be in the right company to get the right kind of experience. Plus you have to really learn from your experiences and store it in ur head for future use. I know people who have worked for 10-15 yrs and still know nothing.

Originally posted by rathi ji:

One more thing , experience comes *automatically* you don't have to do *anything* for that , so taking cirtificates with job ( experience ) is much more beneficial ...
Arun Prasath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2003
Posts: 192
I agree with soniya.
Yes one needs to learn along with the experience. Unless he/she learns, the experience becomes a waste. I have seen many, who just know how to do things in IDE for achieving or building EJB components, without knowing what happens behind it. Why should things be done that way etc.,
Such experience are not useful at all..

Originally posted by soniya saxena:
You have to be in the right company to get the right kind of experience. Plus you have to really learn from your experiences and store it in ur head for future use. I know people who have worked for 10-15 yrs and still know nothing.

ankur rathi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
soniya & arun ,

That is what , I wanted to say but you all were not listening ...
You all were saying that *experience is the only thing that I will look before giving job* , * there is no substitite for experience* etc ...

knowledge is greater than experience ...
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704
But when the interviewer gets two candidates with same experience, same knowledge level definitely the interviewer will prefer a person with certification. Certification is kind of proof saying that I have this kind of knowledge. But always experience will have more weightage then certification
Svend Rost
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 904
when the interviewer gets two candidates with same experience, same knowledge level definitely the interviewer will prefer a person with certification.


If the interviewer has two candidates with the proper training (say M.Sc.)
and the proper expirience (say 10 years exp, and documented impl. of two
larger systems) but one of the persons has a certification then the
interviewer will choose the candidate whome he has the right chemestry with,
and trusts have the right people skill ect.

I think it's important to remember, that we are talking about a job as an
architect, and not as a developer or programmer.

/Svend Rost
Peter Rooke
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2004
Posts: 800

Person with 5 years of experience in bombs or
Person who has a certificate but no experience?

This is a bad example, you could not get anywhere near a UXB (or Bomb), in the [British] Army without passing a EOD course - this gives both the qualification, and the experience (in a controlled environment). How do you know if the person with only experience has knows anything about EOD. Maybe they have just dealt with fake or simple devices.

What is relevant is that in the IT industry, companies are reluctant to give proper training or experience, then they complain about IT skills shortages, and blame everyone but themselves. Experience is no measure of aptitude, or knowledge - if it has been bad experience.

PS - I don't think they defuse bombs these days - they tend to use a 'wheelbarrow' robot first; then if possible, use a small charge to disrupt the device. Defusing would be one of the last alternatives.


Regards Pete
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by rathi ji:
knowledge is greater than experience ...


Not at all. Knowledge is relatively easy to come by and relatively easy to pick up. Experience on the other hand is a much rarer commodity. Ideally I'm looking for a blend of knowledge and experience. The truth is though that there are certain things you just can't learn in books or in school. The only way these things are learned is through painful experience.

If I'm the lead developer on a project, who am I going to trust with the most responsibility? The guy just out of college, even some big name prestigious university, who has never worked a professional software project in his life? Or am I going to trust the guy who has been around the block a few times and knows from experience what the pitfalls, challenges, and expectations are? I'm going to rely on the guy with experience every time. He likely has a proven track record and has shown that he can get things done. The book smart guy with no experience hasn't shown anybody anything yet.

More importantly than what anyone here thinks may be more important, the market has clearly determined that while it values a mix of experience and knowledge, it is the experience that is really important.
Billy Tsai
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Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1297
PhD degree


BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Manmohan Singhania
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Joined: Feb 19, 2004
Posts: 55
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Not at all. Knowledge is relatively easy to come by and relatively easy to pick up. Experience on the other hand is a much rarer commodity.

But everybody says "knowledge is power" and not "experience is power"?
Knowledge comes by proper experience.


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Mike Gershman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
There is an obvious difference in risk/reward between architecting an application and defusing a bomb. In the bomb case, failure is catastrophic while almost every successful approach is equally good.

In the architecture case, a conventional solution may look good but leave the client highly vulnerable to a competitor with a solution which is much lower cost or much higher functionality, while a bad solution should be caught early in the review or prototyping stages.

The newly educated architect is more likely to think outside the box and suggest new technologies, paradigms, and algorithms while most experienced developers, like most generals, will seek to repeat past victories. This can mean the difference between google running LINUX on arrays of commodity mother boards and some of their competitors running Solaris on expensive Sun servers.

Bottom line - my best architecture teams have had a mix of old hands and new grads.


Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by rathi ji:

One more thing , experience comes *automatically* you don't have to do *anything* for that , so taking cirtificates with job ( experience ) is much more beneficial ...


Think again.

Good experience comes from doing good work at good companies with good people. Bad experience comes from doing easy/lazy/simple work. Maybe two guys both have "10 years" experience but there can be a world of difference in what was done in those 10 years, and that's what we, as hiring managers, evaluate.

--Mark
K Riaz
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 375
Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
PhD degree


A Ph.d proves that you like to learn, but do little or nothing. Its used as a safety net for people who are afraid to go straight into employment.
Arjunkumar Shastry
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Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Originally posted by Kashif Riaz:


A Ph.d proves that you like to learn, but do little or nothing. Its used as a safety net for people who are afraid to go straight into employment.


This is much exggagerated.IMO,For some kind of work you require in depth knowledge than just experience.My friend did PHD is game theory and now working as Senior Financial Analyst in San Francisco.To work in those areas,you require subject knowledge which may not be possible to gain in all companies.


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