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A question for all those who returned to India...

ab parashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
Hi Guys,

My question is aimed at all those who have returned to India(after working in US/any other country) and joined a company in India( Product/consulting).

I am at that stage of my career where I have spent enough time in my adopted country and would like to go back to India. The reason's being totally personal.

I am quite happy at my current position with the quality of work,salary and the workload and have a balanced life.For the new position that I am looking to get in India,money is not an important consideration,however the number of work hours(or flexibility thereof,is important). I have heard horror stories from some of my friends working 10-12 hours 6 days a week ( I know they are true since that my was original company in India:-)

While I do my job search I want to avoid such shops in particular.
I would request the ranchers to let me know if they heard about any company in particular.

Thanks much.
Grishma Dube
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 275
Avoid Accenture then...........

if u leave by 7.00 pm u r taking a half day........


Regards,

Grishma
Vijay Vaddem
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 13, 2004
Posts: 243
Originally posted by Grishma Dube:
Avoid Accenture then...........

if u leave by 7.00 pm u r taking a half day........


Regards,

Grishma


Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
But whats the time on which people start the work in Accenture? .
Following are some of the companies ideal to work with:
1)iFlex Solutions
2)Infosys Technologies
3)Persistent
4)Cisco India
5)Honeywell
There are many midsized,small companies working in good technologies ranging from Embedded Design,Logistics,GIS etc.


Namma Suvarna Karnataka
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
I think in Polaris, people work for close to 15 hrs.
danny liu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 185
I think in Polaris, people work for close to 15 hrs.


I just wonder if there are some laws for that. It is really unbelievable.
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704
In Polaris, during the interview process the interviewer asks questions like this:

Are you married? Can you stay over nights?
The project for which we are going to recruit you is in very critical stage, so you need to spend more tiime once you join etc.,
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
If manager in Polaris is woman,then whats the problem of staying during night in a company?
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Originally posted by danny liu:

I just wonder if there are some laws for that. It is really unbelievable.


In well managed projects these kinds of things don't happen.Problem in many projects is managers/leaders are not fully conversant with Software Engineering.General trend over the years is as soon as programmer has completed 3/4 years in programming,(s)he is promoted to these kinds of positions.
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Originally posted by soniya saxena:
I think in Polaris, people work for close to 15 hrs.


I dont think so. My friend goes to offie at 10 in the morning and reaches home by 12 in the night. That is less than 15 hrs.


Groovy
Grishma Dube
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 275
I came office by 9:30 - 10 in the morning and i leave by 9- 9:30 pm everyday.

I've some other co-workers, who are coming to office by 7:00 and leaves office by 9:00 pm
Anbu Selvam
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 09, 2005
Posts: 15
Consider SAP Labs,Bangalore..some of my friends working there go to office around 10:30 AM and return by 6:00 PM...sounds kewl isn't it..
paul sinnott
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 11
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


I dont think so. My friend goes to offie at 10 in the morning and reaches home by 12 in the night. That is less than 15 hrs.


How long i.e. how many years do you think you can keep that up for before you burn out? How many hours are actually productive especially when a person gets really tired. 15 hours a day is kind of exploitative I think. Whats really the point of a life like that? Do you enjoy IT that much?


%0
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
polaris sucks...their HR sucks.........their managers suck.....their interviews suck...their offers suck.....such a sucker company!

Originally posted by Jagdish Reddy:
In Polaris, during the interview process the interviewer asks questions like this:

Are you married? Can you stay over nights?
The project for which we are going to recruit you is in very critical stage, so you need to spend more tiime once you join etc.,
danny liu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 185
I came office by 9:30 - 10 in the morning and i leave by 9- 9:30 pm everyday.

I've some other co-workers, who are coming to office by 7:00 and leaves office by 9:00 pm


I feel sorry for these indian professionals. It seems that they are treated as
labors rather than qualified professionals.
Vedhas Pitkar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 27, 2001
Posts: 445
Originally posted by soniya saxena:
polaris sucks...their HR sucks.........their managers suck.....their interviews suck...their offers suck.....such a sucker company!




Hey Soniya,
Why such aggression against Polaris?Doesnt it fall in your list of companies?
Hu Jiabao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2004
Posts: 39
bcos she is Sonia Sucksena


working in Shanghai CHINA PRC
Amit Basnak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 71
Well I have odd working timings
I work from 4-30 pm to 1-30 am in the morning but sometimes more than that.
Now this has been a daily routine and I do suffer from mental health and lack of social activities.
Arun Prasath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2003
Posts: 192
Originally posted by Amit Basnak:
Well I have odd working timings
I work from 4-30 pm to 1-30 am in the morning but sometimes more than that.
Now this has been a daily routine and I do suffer from mental health and lack of social activities.


Are you with Polaris??
V Chauhan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 15, 2002
Posts: 70
I would say, the work hours also depend on the kind of project you are working on, in addition to the company.

I had a phase in my career in 2002-2003, when I had to work for around 15 hours a day. It continuted for 3-4 months. But since then on most of the days, I reach office at around 10:30 in the morning and be back at 7:30 / 8 in the evening.

If someone is working on a production support project, the work hours will be erratic. The person will usually spend sometime working during US daytime ( for a client based in US).
[ April 04, 2007: Message edited by: B Agrawal ]
Vishwa Kumba
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 1066
Originally posted by soniya saxena:
polaris sucks...their HR sucks.........their managers suck.....their interviews suck...their offers suck.....such a sucker company!


Soniya,

Why do you hate Polaris so much? Their website claims that "Polaris is the world�s first CMMi Level 5 company." I don't what "i" stands for?, but looks like Company has 5,500 employees and has worked on 2,000 projects for the over last 18 years.

I do not know now, but 6 years ago, one of my friend used to work at Polaris, Chennai and he liked it, though Later he quit for a better opportunity.
Venkatraman Kandaswamy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 120
Its been almost 5 years since I worked in TCS, Chennai. I used to work 9 to 6.00pm. But there were other projects where my friends used to work 9 to 9.00 on a regular basis and sometimes even till 2.00am. It all depends on the Project leader/manager. I had a smart Project leader who was practical. Very rarely had we had to stay back late. That is understandable and I have even done that without complaining. I will never work 15 hours on a regular basis. Since I am being paid only for 40 hours a week and anything more I need to be compensated.

But again even those 15 hourers are to be blamed. Many waste their day time hours in front of the coffee machines and reading useless stuff ( and posting to javaranch ) and sit late to prove to their bosses that they are working late hours - which is stupid in my opinion. If the boss is smart let him/her judge you by your merits not by the long hours that you put. If thats the criteria they measure you with quit the job or change projects. Its not worth spending your precious youth working 15 hours in a confined place.

Next how many hours can a human work ideally? 10 hours max? You become inefficient exponentially. If you are taking 6 hours to complete your task after 6.00pm, instead come to work at 8.00am the next day and you will complete it in 1 hour flat.

Anyways, I am planning to catch the boat home sometime next year - lets see how I deal with this long work hour culture...hope things have changed for the better.


--Venkatraman<br />SCJP 1.4<br /><a href="http://kvrlogs.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">blog</a>
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16228
    
  21

Actually, LONG before dot-coms, offshoring, or even outsourcing, it made me nervous to install software that was timestamped at 3 a.m. Allowing for the infamously nocturnal habits of the 1980's American geek programmer, that's still late enough in the day that I worry about the mental alertness of the person who was assembling it.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
About Polaris, its just that I found them pretty unprofessional. They put me in a room and I had to wait for 1 hr 45 min before the interviewer turned up. Not even a glass of water offered. In the second round, there was this technical person who discussed compensation with me. I would expect that to be the job of HR. He gave me an offer equal to number of years of experience which is kind of lame in my opinon. He tried to evade my detailed questions on compensation and tried to convince me that I should just take up the offer with Polaris and not worry abt compensation details. Also he said that people come at 8:30 and work until 11-12 at night and the same was expected of me. Also, I noticed that most of the people in their HR were kids, wonder if they have a mature HR department at all.

Originally posted by Vishwa Kumba:


Soniya,

Why do you hate Polaris so much? Their website claims that "Polaris is the world�s first CMMi Level 5 company." I don't what "i" stands for?, but looks like Company has 5,500 employees and has worked on 2,000 projects for the over last 18 years.

I do not know now, but 6 years ago, one of my friend used to work at Polaris, Chennai and he liked it, though Later he quit for a better opportunity.
Mike Gershman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
India did not invent program-eat-sleep-program jobs. I had plenty of assignments like that decades ago.

If there is nothing else you would rather do, that is heaven. If you are just in it for the money, that can be agony.

When I interviewed junior programmer applicants and found that their skills were just good enough to do the job and they were programmers just to earn a living, I advised them to find a profession they really wanted to pursue. Of course, there may not be many decent-paying alternatives in some places.

Remember that the technical managers are often the real enthusiasts who think that your goal should be a really cool project, not reasonable hours, or you shouldn't be working on their project. Of course, executive managers usually work long hours themselves, so don't look for much sympathy from them.


Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
K Riaz
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 375
Originally posted by soniya saxena:
About Polaris, its just that I found them pretty unprofessional. They put me in a room and I had to wait for 1 hr 45 min before the interviewer turned up. Not even a glass of water offered. In the second round, there was this technical person who discussed compensation with me. I would expect that to be the job of HR. He gave me an offer equal to number of years of experience which is kind of lame in my opinon. He tried to evade my detailed questions on compensation and tried to convince me that I should just take up the offer with Polaris and not worry abt compensation details. Also he said that people come at 8:30 and work until 11-12 at night and the same was expected of me. Also, I noticed that most of the people in their HR were kids, wonder if they have a mature HR department at all.



Why do Indians accept this? Is this normal? They are abused and forced to work ridiculously long hours. I cannot believe you must work until midnight. Here (in the UK), most people usually get to work by 9-9.30am and leave at 5-5.30pm. The latest I have ever worked is 6pm.
Mike Gershman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
Soniya said:
They put me in a room and I had to wait for 1 hr 45 min before the interviewer turned up. Not even a glass of water offered.

The times I kept an applicant waiting were due to an unexpected event, not rudeness. Sometimes, I may have been so rushed that I forgot to apologize, but I hope not.

One story:
A friend of mine was kept waiting in an office for the final interview until the senior manager showed up with a cup of coffee in his hand. My friend asked him in all innocence, "Where's mine". The manager slammed his fist on the desk and said "I like that! You're hired!" They were fast friends ever since.

Maybe you should have asked for a glass of water.
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
In US, I never ever had to wait more than 5 minutes for the interviewer. In India, I have had to wait for long periods for every interview and Polaris was top of the charts. What Indians lack is respect for other people's time. Hiring companies think they are doing a big favour by hiring you and to be hired, you have to go thru all their shit. There was another company where my hubby went for an interview. He was called for a 2 hr interview at 10:30. And they interviwed him till 5 with long time gaps between the various rounds. No food or water.

Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
Soniya said:

The times I kept an applicant waiting were due to an unexpected event, not rudeness. Sometimes, I may have been so rushed that I forgot to apologize, but I hope not.

One story:
A friend of mine was kept waiting in an office for the final interview until the senior manager showed up with a cup of coffee in his hand. My friend asked him in all innocence, "Where's mine". The manager slammed his fist on the desk and said "I like that! You're hired!" They were fast friends ever since.

Maybe you should have asked for a glass of water.
kayal cox
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 19, 2004
Posts: 376
Originally posted by soniya saxena:
In US, I never ever had to wait more than 5 minutes for the interviewer. In India, I have had to wait for long periods for every interview and Polaris was top of the charts. What Indians lack is respect for other people's time. Hiring companies think they are doing a big favour by hiring you and to be hired, you have to go thru all their shit. There was another company where my hubby went for an interview. He was called for a 2 hr interview at 10:30. And they interviwed him till 5 with long time gaps between the various rounds. No food or water.



Gosh! You should not really generalize. I have no doubt that you and your hubby have had some bad experiences. But I doubt if that gives you the authority tell "What Indians lack is respect for other people's time. Hiring companies think they are doing a big favour by hiring you and to be hired"

I have worked in three Indian companies, Wipro, HCL, DSQ. And I have been interviewed in TCS, CTS, Polaris, IIS infotech etc. Never ever have I had a bad experience. The utmost delay would be ten minutes. The only time, I had a long interview ( at HCL), they were courteous enough to ask me if I needed water, and pointed me to the vending machine.

Even regarding long hours, they only times I have had to stay back late, was during deployment schedules, and even then ladies who had kids at home were allowed to leave early, and only the coffee-swigging-pizza-eating-bachelor guys stayed behind to take care.

It really upsets me when one or two incidents are quoted to paint a bad picture of the whole industry in a country, and people of a whole nationality. Indians also have lives at home, they hang out with friends, go to movies, take care of their parents, they have kids, and their kids also have school, extra curricular activities, they fall sick...
[ April 04, 2005: Message edited by: kayal cox ]
Murugan Patham
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 20
Well, I can feel the frustration of Soniya as well the agony of Kayal.

As Kayal said, we can't generalize the entire industry. I blame the people who work more. Even When I was in Saudi Arabia, where working time are very restrictive, guys (Indians) who worked for SAMBA used to stay very late. Usually the Managers will stay late to catch up with their work after day long meetings. So PM's stay late to please their Managers and in turn Programmers stay late to please their PM.

Same thing in India, most of the folks stay late to please their Managers or they want to achieve more things in short time. The thing is most of the Project Managers/Leaders don't realize the Critical Path Time.

As one of the members said, after 3/4 years the person will become Team Lead and after 2 years PM and so on. Do they really get trained in the Project Management, do they really understand the Software Engineering.

As Soniya said, POLARIS is not so good company, few of my friends are working in POLARIS India and as well in POLARIS US. They really suck
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704

Originally posted by kayal cox
Gosh! You should not really generalize. I have no doubt that you and your hubby have had some bad experiences. But I doubt if that gives you the authority tell "What Indians lack is respect for other people's time. Hiring companies think they are doing a big favour by hiring you and to be hired"

I have worked in three Indian companies, Wipro, HCL, DSQ. And I have been interviewed in TCS, CTS, Polaris, IIS infotech etc. Never ever have I had a bad experience. The utmost delay would be ten minutes. The only time, I had a long interview ( at HCL), they were courteous enough to ask me if I needed water, and pointed me to the vending machine.

Even regarding long hours, they only times I have had to stay back late, was during deployment schedules, and even then ladies who had kids at home were allowed to leave early, and only the coffee-swigging-pizza-eating-bachelor guys stayed behind to take care.

It really upsets me when one or two incidents are quoted to paint a bad picture of the whole industry in a country, and people of a whole nationality. Indians also have lives at home, they hang out with friends, go to movies, take care of their parents, they have kids, and their kids also have school, extra curricular activities, they fall sick...


True based on few incidents we cant judge entire scenario. But unfortunately most of the times we need to wait for a long time. I too attended most of the above companies you mentioned. Out of this companies companies like Wipro, Infosys, HCL, DSQ have maitained very good time sense.

I had very bad experience with TCS. Once I went for interview with TCS, Kalkotta. Before going the interview I informed the TCS HR that I cant spend long times for waiting so if he can tell the exact time I can be there in their office before the time. He said ok come at 10AM. I went at 10am the HR came and said and went inside. He didnt turned still I call him at 12. When I called him at 12 he is saying to me you are supposed to spend for whole day? So pathetic answer I got from him, And I heared same kind fo stories with TCS from many of my friends. I guess TCS is tests candidate patience by making him to wait for long hours

Even Accenture makes people to wait for long hours. They will ask you to come at 9.30AM and the interview process goes still evening some times more also. And they dont even bother to provide you water, tea, coffee

If you get a call from PCS, Mumbai they will mention in the call letter that the interview process will take long time so please come with your lunch boxes )
ankur rathi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
Guys & Gals ,
Whats wrong with long time in office ... in fact , you learn a lot ( if you are staying for work ) ...
And I don't think efficiency reduces because of late night ... it is just a physcology ...
arnel nicolas
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 149
Originally posted by rathi ji:
Guys & Gals ,
Whats wrong with long time in office ... in fact , you learn a lot ( if you are staying for work ) ...
And I don't think efficiency reduces because of late night ... it is just a physcology ...


hi rathi,

are you speaking in behalf of a manager or as a developer? Working very late at night is not that productive as you think nor even conducive for learning as you have said. If you think you are more productive with this kind of situation then i think there is something wrong with you............psychologically.....
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704

Originally posted by rathi ji:
Guys & Gals ,
Whats wrong with long time in office ... in fact , you learn a lot ( if you are staying for work ) ...
And I don't think efficiency reduces because of late night ... it is just a physcology ...


Infosys' Chairman and Chief Mentor Officer (CMO) - Mr.Narayana Murthy's Speech on Late sitting :

I know people who work 12 hours a day, six days a week, or more.

Some people do so because of a work emergency where the long hours are only temporary. Other people I know have put in these hours for years. I don't know if they are working all these hours, but I do know they are in the office this long. Others put in long office hours because they are addicted to the workplace. Whatever the reason for putting in overtime, working long hours over the long term is harmful to the person and to the organization.

There are things managers can do to change this for everyone's benefit. Being in the office long hours, over long periods of time, makes way for potential errors. My colleagues who are in the office long hours frequently make mistakes caused by fatigue.

Correcting these mistakes requires their time as well as the time and energy of others. I have seen people work Tuesday through Friday to correct mistakes made after 5 PM on Monday.

Another problem is that people who are in the office for long hours are not pleasant company. They often complain about other people (who aren't working as hard); they are irritable, or cranky, or even angry. Other people avoid them. Such behaviour poses problems, where work goes much better when people work together instead of avoiding one another.

As Managers, there are things we can do to help people leave the office.

First and foremost is to set the example and go home ourselves. I work with a manager who chides people for working long hours. His words quickly lose their meaning when he sends these chiding group e-mails with a time-stamp of 2 AM, Sunday.

Second is to encourage people to put some balance in their lives. For instance, here is a guideline I find helpful:

1) Wake up, eat a good breakfast, and go to work.
2) Work hard and smart for eight or nine hours.
3) Go home.
4) Read the comics, watch a funny movie, dig in the dirt, play with your kids, etc.
5) Eat well and sleep well.

This is called recreating . Doing steps 1, 3, 4, and 5 enable step 2.
Working regular hours and recreating daily are simple concepts. They are hard for some of us because that requires personal change. They are possible since we all have the power to choose to do them.

In considering the issue of overtime, I am reminded of my eldest son. When he was a toddler, If people were visiting the apartment, he would not fall asleep no matter how long the visit, and no matter what time of day it was.! He would fight off sleep until the visitors left.. It was as if he was afraid that he would miss something. Once our visitors' left, he would go to sleep. By this time, however, he was over tired and would scream through half the night with nightmares. He, my wife, and I, all paid the price for his fear of missing out.

Perhaps some people put in such long hours because they don't want to miss anything when they leave the office. The trouble with this is that events will never stop happening. That is life! Things happen 24 hours a day.

Allowing for little rest is not ultimately practical. So, take a nap.Things will happen while you're asleep, but you will have the energy to catch up when you wake.

Hence "LOVE YOUR JOB BUT NEVER FALL IN LOVE WITH YOUR COMPANY"

- Narayana Murthy
ankur rathi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
I have read this mail previously ... good one .

But this is also not bad :

1] Wake up, go to work & have nice breakfast ...
2] Work hard and smart for eight or nine hours ...
3] Then have nice evening snacks ...
4] Some games , TV & enjoyment ...
5] Come back to qubicals , do your study net is always available ...
6] Whenever you get bore , go home , eat food , have some chat with friends , have long drive on bike & enjoy icecream & then have nice sleep ...
[ April 05, 2005: Message edited by: rathi ji ]
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704
All companies doenst provide you that facility know Many companies will switch off ACs after 7 or 8 pm
ab parashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
Thanks a lot for your replies everyone.Since I have worked in India during the 2001-02 crash,I felt that the 14-15 hour work-day would have vanished in the current scenario.On the contrary it seems that some companies have made it the norm.


I guess there is no use taking a paycut(on going back...I know the cost of living stuff but no one can pay me comparable enough) and working double the hours just for a big name tag.I might be able to find an organization that is better but I am not willing to risk it.And as far as I can see, I will hardly have any time left for my personal and social life.I guese,I will stay put wherever I am, and enjoy the stability.

Cheers.
pooja jain
greenhorn
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 12, 2005
Posts: 213
Originally posted by rathi ji:
I have read this mail previously ... good one .

But this is also not bad :

1] Wake up, go to work & have nice breakfast ...
2] Work hard and smart for eight or nine hours ...
3] Then have nice evening snacks ...
4] Some games , TV & enjoyment ...
5] Come back to qubicals , do your study net is always available ...
6] Whenever you get bore , go home , eat food , have some chat with friends , have long drive on bike & enjoy icecream & then have nice sleep ...



Cool ... I like it .


:d
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
Under the current economy, I doubt the stability of any US company. And as I see it, career growth is much higher in India. And I speak from personal experience. As for work hours and flexibility, you have to hunt for the right place, thou it may not be that easy.

Originally posted by ab parashar:
I guese,I will stay put wherever I am, and enjoy the stability.

Cheers.
Billy Tsai
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
do these companies have employee resturants, cafe and entertainment facilities?


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subject: A question for all those who returned to India...