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Jobs in Canada

Sandeep Baskar
Greenhorn

Joined: May 27, 2005
Posts: 4
Hello all,

I might be moving to Canada in the near future. Could anyone give me a picture of job situation in Canada for 2-3 years experienced?

thank you
Sandeep
Prem Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 189
In canada 2-3 years exsperience will probbably get you an "entery level" position and about 40,000 Canadian dolars, on top of which they will tax you to death. I think the job situation is absolutly terible here....... but maybee I was exspecting too much. I had to fight for my life to get the programming job I have now.
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by Shawn DeSarkar:
In canada 2-3 years exsperience will probbably get you an "entery level" position and about 40,000 Canadian dolars, on top of which they will tax you to death. I think the job situation is absolutly terible here....... but maybee I was exspecting too much. I had to fight for my life to get the programming job I have now.


Canada is similar to the states, except that there is no H1B or anything like it and the economy is much better. We currently have a budgetary surplus and a trade surplus with the US. Our currency floats relative to the US$-Yuan and we supply huge quantities of food, oil, and other raw materials.

Non-Canadian experience accounts for very little, this makes it difficult for foreign workers to find jobs. The story of the third world Medical Doctor driving a taxicab in Toronto is true. On the plus side Toronto is very cosmopolitan with lots of ethnic diversity.

Taxes are high, the government considers you to be "rich" if you earn over $58,000 Cdn$, the marginal tax rate is nearly 50%. These taxes do buy you a lot of services that you would need to pay out of pocket in the US. The most significant is health care. I just ran the $40,000 income through Quick-Tax assuming a single person, you would pay about $8000 in income tax if you lived in Ontario. That's about 20%.
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by peter wooster:
Canada is similar to the states, except that there is no H1B or anything like it and the economy is much better.


The difference between Canadian immigration and the US is that it is very easy to come to the US on a temporary basis, but hard to come permanently. Canada is the exact opposite.

Non-Canadian experience accounts for very little, this makes it difficult for foreign workers to find jobs.


Because after all, nothing significant occurs outside of Canada.

I just ran the $40,000 income through Quick-Tax assuming a single person, you would pay about $8000 in income tax if you lived in Ontario. That's about 20%.


I shudder to think what $2660 a month net would get you in Toronto.

Cheers!

Luke
Prem Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 189
I was once offered $12/h to goto Toronto for a tech job. Maybee canada is not so bad, but it definitly is not good for "IT" and programming. Im thinking of becoming a carpenter
Sandeep Baskar
Greenhorn

Joined: May 27, 2005
Posts: 4
Originally posted by Shawn DeSarkar:
I was once offered $12/h to goto Toronto for a tech job. Maybee canada is not so bad, but it definitly is not good for "IT" and programming. Im thinking of becoming a carpenter


I am quite surprised. I am working in germany for the past 2 years. As far as I know, Ireland job market is pretty good in Europe. I think the reason is because of the low wages and taxes. I thought the same would apply to canada. Canandian dollar is weaker than US$ and the wages are not as high as those in US. As canada being an immediate neighbour of US, shouldn't Canada be the 1st contry to benefit from this "outsourcing spree"?
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Sandeep Baskar:
Canandian dollar is weaker than US$ and the wages are not as high as those in US.


This may be true, but Toronto is more expensive than a lot of American cities to live in. Canadian firms have been underpaying folks for years, and then wondering why so many of us head south.

Cheers!

Luke
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Luke !

The difference between Canadian immigration and the US is that it is very easy to come to the US on a temporary basis, but hard to come permanently. Canada is the exact opposite.

When you say "it is very easy to come to the US on a temporary basis", are you kidding, unless you are speaking about illegals without any visa ?
As one immigration lawyer in Florida recently confirmed to me, honest legality respectful temporary immigration (H1B) has totally disappeared in practice nowadays, trend beginning in 2002. The issue is not really about the some 5,000 $ in all now asked to discourage alien hiring, but the minimum 3 mounths waiting for formalities (on purpose of course, still expected to discourage alien hiring). This makes honest hiring through H1B impossible, but for bodyshoppers who are used to cheat anyway, and without any risk for INS controls are inexistant. What is more, this lawyer confirmed H1B are litteraly reserved in practice to indians and chinese, others nationalities which could be granted them are inexistant, simply because process is already well known since long with these 2 countries and their 2 billions plus population makes the pool wide enough for not needing any other.

In clear it is IMHO totally impossible to come to the US on a temporary basis except for indians or chinese.

Your "hard to come permanently" stating is not really relevant either to me, for once you get any legal visa you get automatically a GC after 3 years.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Prem Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 189
Right now, I do Java Servlets, JSF, front end for an MS SQL server database. I am Responsible for making sure the systems runs fine in a production environment. If the SQL server is slow its my fault. I completely "design" everything I code, really I just get the order to create something and I do it. I must use all opensource such as Tomcat, Apache Torque, Eclipse, Myfaces JSF inplementation. This is all medical grade software im building.

I get 35,000 - Tax Canadian Is that a common wage in Canada for such a thing ?
What would an American or Indian get ?
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by Shawn DeSarkar:
Right now, I do Java Servlets, JSF, front end for an MS SQL server database. I am Responsible for making sure the systems runs fine in a production environment. If the SQL server is slow its my fault. I completely "design" everything I code, really I just get the order to create something and I do it. I must use all opensource such as Tomcat, Apache Torque, Eclipse, Myfaces JSF inplementation. This is all medical grade software im building.

I get 35,000 - Tax Canadian Is that a common wage in Canada for such a thing ?
What would an American or Indian get ?


Where are you? That's a ridiculously low salary for Toronto, most secretaries earn more than that. The doctor gets 10 times that much.
john mattucci
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 03, 2000
Posts: 331
What would you say the job market is like in Toronto? I live in Toronto with about 4.5 years experience. My current contract is about to end in about a week or so and I've been looking for work since I started my current position about four months ago and Ive not had one single interview. Mind you I do not have a BSc in Comp Science. Im going to school part-time to complete my degree. But now I'm wondering is it really worth it i.e. is there really a future in this?
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
The issue is not really about the some 5,000 $ in all now asked to discourage alien hiring, but the minimum 3 mounths waiting for formalities (on purpose of course, still expected to discourage alien hiring).


I don't disagree with your overall claim that the non-immigrant system is completely messed up, but your specifics are off somewhat. Actullay, a lot.

The alien head tax fees are around $1500 for an H-1B, and $750 for an L-1. For a TN non-immigrant, they are exactly zero. There is no $5,000 fee. For an individual already in H-1B status, portability means that employment with a new H-1 employer can commence immediately upon DHS receipt of the new H-1 petition.

In clear it is IMHO totally impossible to come to the US on a temporary basis except for indians or chinese.


Your opinion is contradicted by the tens of thousands of Canadians, Britons and Australians who avail themselves of TN, H-1, L-1 and E-3 visas.

Your "hard to come permanently" stating is not really relevant either to me, for once you get any legal visa you get automatically a GC after 3 years.


This has never been the case. With respect, I think your understanding of the US immigration system is somewhat flawed. Having been through the entire system, I can assure you it is significantly different from how you perceive it to be.

Cheers!

Luke
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Shawn DeSarkar:
I get 35,000 - Tax Canadian Is that a common wage in Canada for such a thing ?


By comparison, my first job out of college (with a History degree) in 1994 installing NT on Servers paid marginally less than that. If you're living in Toronto, that's poverty level.

Cheers!

Luke
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by john mattucci:
But now I'm wondering is it really worth it i.e. is there really a future in this?


Yes. Just not in Canada.

Cheers!

Luke
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Luke !

I wouldn't like to insist too much for this is not topic's matter, so we could have to create a new one, as it could collect much useful info without spoiling this one.

I don't disagree with your overall claim that the non-immigrant system is completely messed up, but your specifics are off somewhat. Actullay, a lot.

Not only non-immigrant system, immigrant system is too : the only legal immigration possibilities are marriage & DV-lottery, so both relevant to total randomness, rather than selecting those who have professionnal skills strong enough to have a real chance to succeed. If each year tens of thoushands skilled workers are dismissed in favor of some 50,000 DV-lottery selected burger flippers, do you believe it is any better for US ? I am not really exagerating, people with real skills will rely on a visa labor, those with no useful skill will rely on pure chance through DV-lottery, hence my quote.

The alien head tax fees are around $1500 for an H-1B, and $750 for an L-1. For a TN non-immigrant, they are exactly zero. There is no $5,000 fee. For an individual already in H-1B status, portability means that employment with a new H-1 employer can commence immediately upon DHS receipt of the new H-1 petition.

No, it has become much more expensive, for H1B only from 1st october 2005 :
_ 185 $ standard visa fee.
_ 1,500 $ for companies > 25 people, 750 $ for others.
_ 500 $ for fraud detection (hilarious, USCIS doesn't ever detect any fraud while we can see many by ourselves on this forum without searching, especially from indian bodyshoppers, but not only).
_ 1000 $ "premium fee" for fast visa delivery.
_ some 2500 $ average for an immigration lawyer, not mandatory but highly recommended to make sure the process is not much delayed by one of many possible legal issues.

So in total 2,435 $ minimum, in practice about 5,000 $ including the (mandatory in practice) immigration lawyer's fee, I insist.

Your opinion is contradicted by the tens of thousands of Canadians, Britons and Australians who avail themselves of TN, H-1, L-1 and E-3 visas.

Not really, for I was speaking about normal access to labour visas, you are speaking about networking. There is a huge trend to promote only anglo-saxon people or assimilated for cultural grounds, so nowadays present and former commonwealth nations are practically the only ones to have some real chance for labour visa (exception with chinese), but appart from these 5 nations you are stating the some other 200 nations are not represented at all.
You should try to find an immigration lawyer and speak to him frankly about this, you would discover the situation is much nearer from my words than yours.

This has never been the case. With respect, I think your understanding of the US immigration system is somewhat flawed. Having been through the entire system, I can assure you it is significantly different from how you perceive it to be.

The US immigration system is totally opaque, like at poker you have to "pay for seing" some 5,000 $ to an immigration lawyer to build a file so as to check for immigration possibility. There is simply no official way to evaluate real chance for immigration, or checking its result. While valuable aliens immigration is a strategic economical interest for US, it is executively assumed by private immigration lawyers. Absurd, and deadly on long term.

Of course you can guess I am a (hopefuly valuable, check my certifications below) alien who cannot get sponsorship, as many thousands others. The halt of valuable immigration to US looks very true from outside, and seems confirmed by some other strategic economic figures, such as drop of 2.5 % each year of alien students in US universities in favor of alien universities, which have a much better value for money ratio (much cheaper than US and as good if not better). So I believe I am not exagerating at all.

Best regards.
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
the only legal immigration possibilities are marriage & DV-lottery, so both relevant to total randomness, rather than selecting those who have professionnal skills strong enough to have a real chance to succeed.


Approximately 180,000 (these are FY2003 numbers) employment-based immigrants are admitted every year. My own Green Card says category "E37", so I can assure you they are still being given out. They do pale in comparison with family-based immigrants, who number around 740,000 - but employment-based immigrants are a substantial minority of US immigrants.

I am not really exagerating, people with real skills will rely on a visa labor, those with no useful skill will rely on pure chance through DV-lottery, hence my quote.


You are 100% accurate here, but I will suggest that some DV winners are well-educated. I worked for one Irish fellow like that at my first job here in the US.

So in total 2,435 $ minimum, in practice about 5,000 $ including the (mandatory in practice) immigration lawyer's fee, I insist.


You're correct on the specific numbers. My H-1B experience is a little rusty on the specific numbers in the new law. I will point out again that the $1,000 premium processing fee is only of any relevance if the alien beneficiary does not (and has not had) H-1B status in the past, since aliens who had H-1B status are eligible for portability and do not need to wait for the H-1B petition to be approved. The flip side of such a situation is that aliens who cannot benefit from portability are usually subject to the cap - and therefore cannot obtain H-1B status until October 1st.

Not really, for I was speaking about normal access to labour visas, you are speaking about networking. There is a huge trend to promote only anglo-saxon people or assimilated for cultural grounds


Weren't you just saying that the non-immigrant system is essentially closed to anyone not Chinese and Indian? Now you're saying it's an Anglo-Saxon networking thing. The strange thing is that many Canadian citizens obtaining TN status are not Anglo-Saxon in any sense of the word except linguistically - they're leaving their (or their parents') adopted country for the same reasons we mention in this thread - lousy rates of pay.

appart from these 5 nations you are stating the some other 200 nations are not represented at all.


I've never stated anything of the sort. I can dig up the non-immigrant employment numbers if you want, from nations such as France, Germany, Spain, South Korea, etc - they're surprisingly large.

You should try to find an immigration lawyer and speak to him frankly about this, you would discover the situation is much nearer from my words than yours.


I've worked with immigration lawyers and prospective immigrants, providing advice and suggestions on immigration-related boards since 1997.

The US immigration system is totally opaque, like at poker you have to "pay for seing" some 5,000 $ to an immigration lawyer to build a file so as to check for immigration possibility. There is simply no official way to evaluate real chance for immigration, or checking its result.


$5,000 is more than I paid in (dubious) legal fees for the entire process. Any reputable immigration attorney can for $50-$150 give you some ideas as to your possible avenues for permanent residency, and their relative likelihood of success. As with any legal proceeding, any attorney who gives you a guarantee of success is lying - but experienced and reputable attorneys can give you a good ballpark figure.

The problem, as you correctly point out, is how can someone on the "outside" like yourself get your first H-1B and into the US.

Cheers!

Luke
john mattucci
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 03, 2000
Posts: 331
This is in response to Luke. With all due respect I'm looking for constructive comments rather than place your tail between your legs and run. Current obligations contrain me to remain in Toronto. So I'm looking for comments/opinions from individuals who have their fingers on the pulse stating what the actual state of the industry is like in the city or surrounding areas.
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by john mattucci:
With all due respect I'm looking for constructive comments rather than place your tail between your legs and run. Current obligations contrain me to remain in Toronto. So I'm looking for comments/opinions from individuals who have their fingers on the pulse stating what the actual state of the industry is like in the city or surrounding areas.


My apologies. You asked if there was any future in what you were doing, so I suspect the notion of running has crossed your mind as well. Based on everything I've seen in this forum the past few weeks about pay conditions in Toronto since I left, I'm not sure what constructive comments can be offered. You may not like that answer, but it's what I'm seeing.

Cheers!

Luke
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Luke !

You're correct on the specific numbers. My H-1B experience is a little rusty on the specific numbers in the new law. I will point out again that the $1,000 premium processing fee is only of any relevance if the alien beneficiary does not (and has not had) H-1B status in the past, since aliens who had H-1B status are eligible for portability and do not need to wait for the H-1B petition to be approved. The flip side of such a situation is that aliens who cannot benefit from portability are usually subject to the cap - and therefore cannot obtain H-1B status until October 1st.

Things have much changed very recently, unless keeping tuned evry mounth you couldn't be aware of this. Sadly the US administration (no real political attack, we have far worse in France) keeps trying to deal with the new situation with past recipes which are no longer relevant. It was for example totally silly to extend H1B cap with an extra 20,000 for owners of an US MS.
First while even US native MS have very hard times to find a first job with so many seasoned IT available (1 mandatory year of paid experience minimum, so beginners are doomed), these are alien IT beginners so it will be even harder for them and will simply make in all IT beginners jam on market worse. What is more on 8th march USCIS announced it was available for alien MS owners even gotten outside US, simply because they couldn't find enough candidates (students in US, both natives & aliens, are running away from IT field because of the awful hardships to find a first job, what is worse bad paid anyway compared to US standards).
So the real issue is that US gov didn't realize the new situation needs new solutions, the old ones will simply worsen it, immigration needs must be totally re-examined, especially in qualified labour field.

I've worked with immigration lawyers and prospective immigrants, providing advice and suggestions on immigration-related boards since 1997... Any reputable immigration attorney can for $50-$150 give you some ideas as to your possible avenues for permanent residency, and their relative likelihood of success. As with any legal proceeding, any attorney who gives you a guarantee of success is lying - but experienced and reputable attorneys can give you a good ballpark figure.

So could you simply provide me with the email address of a reliable cheap one, perhaps through private email ? Mine is "eric.lemaitre7@wanadoo.fr". The whole world heard about Stella awards (http://www.stellaawards.com/) or awful lawyer things (http://www.power-of-attorneys.com/), so I much beware of US lawyers.

The problem, as you correctly point out, is how can someone on the "outside" like yourself get your first H-1B and into the US.

This is IMHO a great US default, France relies too much on public (so much we are a doomed socialist country by fact now), while by contrary excess US relies too much on private. A minimum public control should exist in US on all strategic fields so as at least to be able to estimate real situation and avoids excesses when private goes wrong. A minimum public control would have for example prevented the 2 californian electricity companies to ally for higest prices instead of being concurrent, and would allow to know if there are or not too many alien IT pros in US for visa caps. IMHO relying only on private companies figures to estimate this is an aberration, private will always state "not enough really qualified cheap ones, so many aliens needed", US natives will always state "use US ones even if not qualified enough, so no aliens needed". Such a strategic need as labour could be delegated to private lawyers for effectiveness with controlled fees, but real alien labour needs figures should be in control of US gov only.

Best regards.
Jas Oberai
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 231
Nice post...being in toronto ..I too would like to share my experience.Got a B.E in Comp.Sc. from India and came to toronto last june.After trying hard and doin 2-3 lowly jobs,ended up finally in a "junior java developer" job.got payed 33K and not much was left after gas and tax deductions.But after that contract was over in March,I am not able to get any job..not even voluntary,intern etc.I'm tryin hard and in the process cleared SCJP1.4 last month(88%),but that didnt helped either.Now,I will give the SCWCD and SCJA this month and keep tryin till July,otherwise I too would become a truck driver and earn 65K with less tensios....totally frustated.
thanks


SCJP 1.4 (88%)<br />SCWCD 1.4 (88%)
Shane Davison
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 03, 2005
Posts: 1
Wow, I hope things aren't that bad in the rest of the country.
Anyone want to comment on other major cities?

I lived in Canada (SK) for most of my life and came down here
after graduating for what I thought was going to be my dream
job. It didn't work out that way but I decided to stick around
for a while. So I've been here for about 10 years - about 1/2
of the time on H1B and the rest on TN. Originally the latter
was very quick/easy/cheap to get but the last few years it's
been harder and takes longer (they now always seem to find one
thing that requires clarification/resubmission).

Anyway, I was thinking of heading back sometime soon but wasn't
sure where - Vancouver & Edmonton/Calgary were likely candidates,
but TO/Ottawa isn't out of the question. Or maybe I can stay
here forever on TN's ? :-)
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
I wouldn't be put off by the pessimists, the job situation in TO is much better than it was a year ago, you even see programming jobs advertised in the TO Star Careers section. I've heard that the situation in Calgary is very good at present, especially in the resource (oil&gas) business.
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by Luke Kolin:
Because after all, nothing significant occurs outside of Canada.

Luke


Actually, its "nothing significant occurs outside of Toronto"
eric zhao
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 26, 2003
Posts: 20
While it's true that the job market is getting better in toronto (there has been more hiring ads in banks web sites etc), it is still very hard. And most of the contract jobs are only for people with 5 years experiences. After working in states for 2 years as a java developer and landed in Toronto in April 2004, it took me 5 months to land another java job paying 38k (entry level in an university setting).

In short, if you are still in entry level and not graduating from a canadian university, it's still very dark out there. Unless you are capable of lying big on your resume to try your luck on some dumb agencies.
danny liu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 185
Eric,
In short, if you are still in entry level and not graduating from a canadian university, it's still very dark out there.


As long as you get a degree from a north america university, it should count.


Unless you are capable of lying big on your resume to try your luck on some dumb agencies.


Don't ever try that. Smart interviewers may capture you.


Dan
eric zhao
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 26, 2003
Posts: 20
I only hope there are more smart interviewers out there.

I agree an US degree works pretty much the same in canada. However, most entry level jobs are taken by local new graduates through internships. Another difference I noticed, Canada's job market relies more on agencies than in the states. Although my own experience with agency in both countries are they are pretty much useless unless you are already in senior level. Definately not to promote it, but I only applaud for my friend who pulled it off pretending he is senior level. Sometimes, this f***ing system just doesn't deserve much respect.

Anyhow, with a MS degree in computer from states and 2 years working experience, I got 3 real interviews in three months between June and august last year before landed a job. Nothing happened at all in the first two months. Good test of patience (rather not though). Overall, it's MUCH better than 2001, 2002 in US if you had been there. Two months back, I even got contacted by an agency for a temp job without ever applying for it. That's very different from a year ago.

Anyway, best wishes for all the java people.
danny liu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 185
Canada's job market relies more on agencies than in the states.


I doubt it. That is because you are new to Canada. If you know a couple of IT professionals, it is much easier to find a job.

with a MS degree in computer from states and 2 years working experience, I got 3 real interviews in three months


That's not bad.

However, most entry level jobs are taken by local new graduates through internships.


They are even cheaper than you.

Dan
 
With a little knowledge, a cast iron skillet is non-stick and lasts a lifetime.
 
subject: Jobs in Canada