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How come so many Indians?

Jim Sera
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 28, 2005
Posts: 11
I don't mean to offend anyone but I am just so curious as to why 95% of this board has programmers of Indian origin? I'm American and about 80% of our workforce in IT is also Indian.

Is nobody studying Computer Science in American universities these days? How come I don't see very many American Software Developers?
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Because most of the Americans dont want to do lower level jobs like programming, they are busy in Architecting solutions and Designs but for we Indians coding is better.
Praveen Nagpal
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 27, 2005
Posts: 19
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:
Because most of the Americans dont want to do lower level jobs like programming, they are busy in Architecting solutions and Designs but for we Indians coding is better.


Well.. not sure whether this was a tounge in cheek comment or not but seriously I won't agree with this at all. This forum is not meant exclusively for coders and neither the fact that Indians are only good at so called "lower level jobs" like coding. Things have changed a lot in the last few years.
Rashmi Banthia
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 22, 2003
Posts: 79
Because there are more than a billion Indians and you would find them everywhere. :-)

-Rashmi
Ramesh Choudhary
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 200

Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:
Because most of the Americans dont want to do lower level jobs like programming, they are busy in Architecting solutions and Designs but for we Indians coding is better

That's a shaky statement. Americans are not known for sneering at 'low level' jobs. A person is working at a janitor is not looked down in that society(That's the info i got from my friends).

Ignoring and ridiculing low level jobs is more prevalent in societies which have not industrialized. All the developing countries fall in this category.
[ August 07, 2005: Message edited by: Ramesh Choudhary ]
Mike Gershman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
The exact reason that even US sites have more and more Indian programmers is that entry level programmers jobs are plentiful in India and scarce in the US. Far fewer US students major in programming than ten years ago. In India, the computer classes are still packed.

Once Indian programmers have, or can claim, five years of paid Java expereience, they can come to the US under the H1B program and happily work for lower wages than historic US salaries. This drives down the salaries of US programmers and allows employers to benefit from lower costs whether the work is done in the US or India.

This is all win-win if you're not an American programmer.


Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Homer Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 311
How come I don't see very many American Software Developers?

Please note the sarcasm.

The situation you are commenting on is strictly an illusion. You cannot prove the assertion that Americans are being run out of the business by their own government. You are just a dead horse beater.

1) While the names they use on this board may look Indian. It's just trendy and you can't prove they are really Indian.

2) What you are seeing is that Indians are way behind the times. The Americans have just left this tired fascade saloon. They have moved to that trendy new site down the road on the right.

3) Americans are bad at Math and Science. They can't do anything complicated as program. If it don't run on Xbox or PlayStation it better be IPODable.

Prema Chakravarthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 91
1. Most programmers that post here are indian programmers from India. So, what? India happens to have the most programming jobs at the moment.
2. There are more IT Indian programmers because a lot of Indians moved to the states in the nineties. They have green cards and some of them don't mind lower wages. The others are bright people and already moved on to higher level positions.
2. I interviewed some Indian women that were married to indian guys that had green cards. However, a lot of them were not technically as competant. I did meet a few good ones but may be just 10% or so are real good.
3. It is incorrect that employees will bring Indians into US on H1B because they will accept lower wages. We are hiring where I work and we are not sponsoring any one because there is an abundant supply of programmers locally.
Vinit Patil
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 17, 2005
Posts: 37
May be the US programmers are
1) overloaded with their work
2) more concentrating on their work

than Indian programmers.

-Vinit
Rashmi Tambe
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 07, 2001
Posts: 418
Originally posted by K Riaz:


Not better, just cheaper.


I am a silent observer of this forum and you seem to have some problem with Indians. Your posts always have negative comments about Indians. Being cheaper is not the only thing that Indians offer...outsourcing industry in India could not have lasted so long by just being cheaper, quality does matter too. Indian IT giants like infosys, wipro, TCS and so many are not surviving because they are cheaper. You can't be a market leader just by offering poor quality stuff at low rates. Please change your attitude and try admiring people when they are good at something.
[ August 08, 2005: Message edited by: Rashmi Tambe ]
Dharam Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 04, 2005
Posts: 162
Anyway, 730 people have joined Infosys in a single day.
Here the news goes

[ August 08, 2005: Message edited by: Sampige Malleswaram ]

Powered by Sonia
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Rashmi !

I am a silent observer of this forum and you seem to have some problem with Indians. Your posts always have negative comments about Indians. Being cheaper is not the only thing that Indians offer...

When K Riaz said "Not better, just cheaper", it may have double meaning. You took it as against Indians, I took it as against "always cheaper policy". So K Riaz may have meant IT jobs go to India simply because of this "globalization" policy, today's IT business trend is clearly exporting all which can be outsourced where it is cheapest, which profits now to India but will profit tomorrow to Pakistan and China because India is getting less cheap, which is already happening. If K Riaz meant he was against this policy, I totally agree with him.

outsourcing industry in India could not have lasted so long by just being cheaper, quality does matter too. Indian IT giants like infosys, wipro, TCS and so many are not surviving because they are cheaper. You can't be a market leader just by offering poor quality stuff at low rates. Please change your attitude and try admiring people when they are good at something.

Indians are no better nor worse than others, in any country about IT you have 20% people really good, 20% really bad, and the remaining 60% average. You can't say Indians are good simply because IT business deciders outsource there now. What will you say when massive layoffs happen in India because IT outsourcing has shifted to Pakistan and China as India is no longer cheap ? Pakistanese and Chinese are better than Indians this is why outsourcing goes there now ? Absurd...

IMHO we will see soon who is really good or not, which means not simply passively making profits of temporary economical trends or actively able to turn it into a real policy. As US is clearly declining in IT field for strategical reasons, it could lose very soon its suppremacy to other countries which have the ability to take its place. It could be India if indians are able to innovate. It could be China if chinese adopt more liberal politics. It could be Europe if europeans adopt liberalism rather than soft socialism they have now. Wait and see...

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Ramesh Choudhary
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 200

What will you say when massive layoffs happen in India because IT outsourcing has shifted to Pakistan and China as India is no longer cheap


Massive lay off's are out of question. Our labour laws are notoriously rigid. You cannot lay off more than 100 employees at a time. And that too an advance (3 months)notice has to be given by the management.


You can't say Indians are good simply because IT business deciders outsource there now.


That's true. The motive seems to be getting things done at a cheaper cost.
American businessmen are very shrewd individuals. When they proclaim that India is going to be 'IT superpower' our media goes over the moon. Infy, TCS etc., are all glorified with terms such as 'Technology Leader' etc.,. I don't think we are going to be 'super power' with outsourced work.
[ August 08, 2005: Message edited by: Ramesh Choudhary ]
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Where did you read this ?
AFAIK,labor laws in India are not applicable to people working in IT.Govt. organizations,banks frequently give volantary retirement scheme!!


Namma Suvarna Karnataka
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

Originally posted by Ramesh Choudhary:


Massive lay off's are out of quastion. Our labour laws are notoripusly rigid. You cannot lay off more than 100 employees at a time. And that too a advance (3 months)notice has to be given by the management.


NO, you're mistaken!!!
India is employer friendly now -- software professionals especially have no job security now. 3 months notice is not needed. for most companies 1 month is more than enough and if they are willing to pay one months salary they can tell you at 5 PM that this was your last day. This has happened.

BTW, Indians may loose out to China/Pak/Bangladesh/Srilanka if they are too demanding. However, more likely, salaries will go down and will get stabilized at some sensible figure; and I'd personally prefer it that way!

Polarization is not good for India in any way -- crime rate will increase (banglore attacks are warnings), real estate is going crazy and what makes us believe that we s/w professionals deserve more than ppl working in other industries. Ultimately, they will also fight for hike an that will ncrease production cost of everything from Oil to Steel. So in 5 years, though you may get 12 LPA, you might still be a very mediocre person given PPP - purchasing power parity.

And I dare not think about 15-20 years from now since globaliztion and privatization have screwed up our education system so much (including affordability) that it is going to be impossible to produce so many skilled an qualifies professionals. Think about that!!!

- Manish
[ August 08, 2005: Message edited by: Manish Hatwalne ]
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Ramesh !

The motive seems to be getting things done at a cheaper cost. American businessmen are very shrewd individuals. When they proclaim that India is going to be 'IT superpower' our media goes over the moon. Infy, TCS etc., are all glorified with terms such as 'Technology Leader' etc.,. I don't think we are going to be 'super power' with outsourced work.

Very true, but it still can become very profitable to India if relevant measures are taken. At present in India IT professionnals are making well but not the population in whole, all goods are getting much more expensive especially household, and it can change drasticly if outsourcing trends change. But if Indian government takes the right measures for allowing this temporary IT richness peak to flood in the relevant places (investment, education, IT innovation, training) and restraining exegerated inflation without interering too much in economy, this richness is likely to remain. If not, richness will vanish as soon as outsourcing trend shifts, and massive layoffs will happen there like in USA.

As you pointed out American businessmen are very shrewd individuals, the "outsource all to cheapest" policy is particulary harmful to their country, but if Indian government takes the right decisions this could be good to India on long term, a real opportunity to make things last.

Best regards.
Ali Hussain
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 19, 2005
Posts: 211

I am a silent observer of this forum and you seem to have some problem with Indians. Your posts always have negative comments about Indians. Being cheaper is not the only thing that Indians offer...

When K Riaz said "Not better, just cheaper", it may have double meaning. You took it as against Indians, I took it as against "always cheaper policy". So K Riaz may have meant IT jobs go to India simply because of this "globalization" policy, today's IT business trend is clearly exporting all which can be outsourced where it is cheapest, which profits now to India but will profit tomorrow to Pakistan and China because India is getting less cheap, which is already happening. If K Riaz meant he was against this policy, I totally agree with him.


I agree with you Eric! Most of us would not have reacted in such a manner, if someone with an Indian name had made the same comment. Every time Mr Riaz says anything that does not conclude by declaring India as the super IT power, the hell breaks lose. Guys be nice to him. He might not be as bad as some of my Indian friends think. Remember "Freedom of speech"...

Personally I believe India is doing so well in outsourcing not just because they are cheap (though it is very important), but they are smart and hard working people. Survival of the fittest.
[ August 08, 2005: Message edited by: Qutub Shahi Awan ]

- SCEA, SCJD, SCBCD, SCWCD, SCMAD, SCJP, ICAD (WebSphere), Lotus Principal CLP, Lotus CLP, Lotus CLS
Ramesh Choudhary
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 200

NO, you're mistaken!!!
India is employer friendly now -- software professionals especially have no job security now. 3 months notice is not needed. for most companies 1 month is more than enough and if they are willing to pay one months salary they can tell you at 5 PM that this was your last day. This has happened.

Hey, but massive layoff's like 10,000 may not be possible here.


Indians may loose out to China/Pak/Bangladesh/Srilanka if they are too demanding

That's unlikely. IT industry structure cannot be created in a week. First they may snare low level job's like support, call centre's etc.,. Then they may jump up in the value chain and grab jobs of our programmer's. But that will take atleast 10-15 years.



Polarization is not good for India in any way -- crime rate will increase (banglore attacks are warnings), real estate is going crazy and what makes us believe that we s/w professionals deserve more than ppl working in other industries. Ultimately, they will also fight for hike an that will ncrease production cost of everything from Oil to Steel.


That's impossible. Production jobs are primarily brown collar jobs.No person from indian middle class works in a brown collar job. These job's are primarily filled up by people from poor rural areas.They would never compare with IT professionals.A person is more likely to compare with others working in same area. Hype and hoopla aside, IT hardly employs 1% of our population. Location's such as Calcutta, Delhi and Mumbai with no considerable IT presence are costly. Crime is an integral part of a Capitalist economy. Disparities in income are here to stay, as they have for
all these centuries. These disparities will fuel the crime rate.

And I dare not think about 15-20 years from now since globaliztion and privatization have screwed up our education system so much (including affordability) that it is going to be impossible to produce so many skilled an qualifies professionals. Think about that!!!

On the contrary i would aver that facilities are improving at a good rate.
Our research paper(Of Indian Univ's) count is steadily increasing. Private college managements are investing considerable amount of money to improve the facilities. Our's is a society that's on an ascent in all fields(including crime ).
David O'Meara
Rancher

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 13459

Let me take a moment to describe the difference between anonymous forums and the community we try to support here at the Ranch: history matters.

If you act like an ass at the Sun site you'll be flamed or ignored, but you can keep it up till your fingers bleed. The same behaviour here will earn you a reputation. Keep it up and you'll be banned. IP blocks are in effect for the worst.

This is the second time I've seen the same behaviour. This thread will be reported to the other moderators and I expect it will be either truncated or deleted. Asking others to continually clean this rubbish is unfair so in future I will be asking for accounts to be deleted.

Please try to be civil. Be nice, there is no alternative. Please read the original post and try to stay on topic.

thanks,
Dave.
Anand Prabhu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 299
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:
Because most of the Americans dont want to do lower level jobs like programming, they are busy in Architecting solutions and Designs but for we Indians coding is better.


I think Outsourcing or/and related topics like this one affect all of us and we should discuss this without getting too personally involved and not heeding too much to emotions. Riaz's reply to this post now seems to take this thread off the curve again. I am displaying the message by Sameer again. If we read the entire message in context, I feel he is implying that Americans prefer architecting/designing while Indians prefer coding. How did "cheapness" sneak in here?
Ali Hussain
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 19, 2005
Posts: 211
I think Outsourcing or/and related topics like this one affect all of us and we should discuss this without getting too personally involved and not heeding too much to emotions. Riaz's reply to this post now seems to take this thread off the curve again. I am displaying the message by Sameer again. If we read the entire message in context, I feel he is implying that Americans prefer architecting/designing while Indians prefer coding. How did "cheapness" sneak in here?

Please read the original post and try to stay on topic.

Just a hint...
Marc Peabody
pie sneak
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Posts: 4727

Originally posted by Homer Phillips:
3) Americans are bad at Math and Science. They can't do anything complicated as program. If it don't run on Xbox or PlayStation it better be IPODable.

Xbox Live will poison everyone's culture eventually.


A good workman is known by his tools.
Anand Prabhu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 299
Originally posted by Qutub Shahi Awan:

Just a hint...


Thanks. I think moderation is best left to the moderators. What's acceptable/tolerable/off-limits etc to each one of us is different and we will let the moderators warn us if/when we reach that threshold.
Ali Hussain
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 19, 2005
Posts: 211

I think Outsourcing or/and related topics like this one affect all of us and we should discuss this without getting too personally involved and not heeding too much to emotions. Riaz's reply to this post now seems to take this thread off the curve again. I am displaying the message by Sameer again. If we read the entire message in context, I feel he is implying that Americans prefer architecting/designing while Indians prefer coding. How did "cheapness" sneak in here?



Thanks. I think moderation is best left to the moderators. What's acceptable/tolerable/off-limits etc to each one of us is different and we will let the moderators warn us if/when we reach that threshold.


Yes exactly. We dont want other ranchers to tell us whether we are getting too "personally involved or heeding much too emotions". Please leave that to the Moderator. Thanks anyway. No offence
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Jim Sera:
I don't mean to offend anyone but I am just so curious as to why 95% of this board has programmers of Indian origin? I'm American and about 80% of our workforce in IT is also Indian.

Is nobody studying Computer Science in American universities these days? How come I don't see very many American Software Developers?



Trying to stick to topic

The short answer is "a significant base of Indian immigrants that came to US in the 60's and 70's", "growth of the Indian educated middle class in the 80's" and "growth of US economy in the 90's". All 3 events colluded to form conditions favorable for what I can "The Great Indian IT Migration" in the 90's. The bursting of the IT bubble in the new millenium resulted in outsourcing of IT jobs to India.


Here's the long answer

In the early 90's, I beleive the following factors contributed to an increase in the number of Inidan IT professionals
1) THere was a high demand for software engineers in the US. The internet bubble was just beginning to grow, plus there was the looming Y2K problem. Companies that relied on software to do business were desperate to fix the Y2K problem, or throw away their existing system and start from scratch. Companies that did not rely on software were desperate to deply software systems so they could stay competitive
2) Lots of Junior science colleges. There was a certain prestige in getting admission into a science college, and only the best students could get admission into a Junior science college
3) Indian computer science graduates that had left for US in the 70's and the 80's had become immensely succesful. Every student who had enrolled in Junior Science college started dreaming of becoming the next Sameer Bhatia. The mother of every student that was enrolled in Science college started dreaming of sending his son to America and then demanding a large dowry
4) Since, there was a large bank of students who were eligible to become computer graduates, and Bachelors in Computers became a highly demanded course, colleges started offerring Bachelors in Computer Engineering degree courses because it was a very lucrative business. This created a "bank" of Computer Engineers
5) On the heels of colleges, many people started offerring "computer courses" to people who cannot get admission to Computer Engineering colleges which created another "bank" of software developers
6) Indians who had settled in US in the 60's and 70's saw 2 things happenning at once:- Demand for software engineers rising in US, and supply of software engineers started growing in US. Connecting the supply to the demand became a very lucrative business. This formed a new breed of Indians called as "Body-shoppers"
7) The entire process started snowballing. Since demand for software engineers increased, more colleges started offerring software engineering courses and computer courses, and more Indian IT professionals started graduating, and more body-shoppers started opening up. The influx of Indian IT professionals created a bank of IT professionals in US that were willing to to work for cheaper than their American counterparts. This increased the demand for Indian IT professionals. Study hard, get admission in IT college, apply for H1 became a mantra among the Indiam middle-class. This would have continued infintely if the US stock market hadn't crashed

So, that's why you have so many Indian IT professionals in the 90's. I beleive the reasons are purely a collusion of sevaral factors:- the growth of US economy, the growth of middle-class educated culture in India and people who are willing to take advantage of the situation to make money. It has nothing to do with the quality of work. I beleive Indian IT engineers are as good as our American brothers. However, in the 90's American programmers were true "geeks"; ie; people who are in programming because they are absolutely in love with programming, whereas many Indian programmers were programmers because it paid well.

The situation started changing in the late 90's. American colleges finally caught up, and becoming a software engineer in US in the late 90'ssuddenly became "cool". Unfortunately, the market crashed. US IT companies were forced to cut costs. So, they just moved their operations to India, or they started contracting indian companies. They figured that since most of the work is being done by Indians anyways, why not move all operations to India? Some of the Indians who had entered US workforce in the 90's started becoming IT/project managers in 2000. Those manager make good contact points between US firms and Indian contracting companies. Americans who graduated with an engineering degree around the turn of the millenium suddenly found that all the jobs moved to India.

Now, the number of Indian programmers have increased exponentially because a)the number of colleges offerring computer courses increased expnentially, b) number of people trying to get into computer colleges increased exponentially and c) number of jobs available to Indian IT professionals increased. Since, jobs have moved to India, Indians can find an IT job easily(the job is local, they dont' have to apply for the pesky H1B and they aren't at the mercy of Bodyshoppers). Also, since IT labor is cheaper, American companies can probably afford to employ 2 Indian programmers for every programmer in the US, and still make money. This has increased the number of IT positions in India.

so, that's the long answer to your question
Jason Cox
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 287
I wonder how much of it is American insecurity about their jobs manifesting itself as xenophobia?

Although I have and do work with a lot of Indians, I do not currently know a single IT professional that is worth a damn (which does not necessarily translate to "good" or even "competent") that is not currently working in their preferred field. Granted, some of them have taken pay cuts in recent years or foregone raises, but that is hardly unusual since the dotcom crash.

Though I find it interesting how Indians are often singled out when, in retrospect, I have worked with immigrants from many different countries over the past few years. Quite frankly, it's the all 30 something white guy shops that concern me these days. In fact, it was that very environment that produced some of my worst working conditions.

Diversity is a good thing.
Prem Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 189
Incidentally, in Canada, if you are of Indian or Chinese ancestry and a Canadian Citizen, you can expect half the wage of everyone else.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Shawn DeSarkar:
Incidentally, in Canada, if you are of Indian or Chinese ancestry and a Canadian Citizen, you can expect half the wage of everyone else.


Shawn, comments like these are inciteful and wildly inappropriate. If you can provide some evidence that this is true, perhaps a research study, a news report, or even a recognized source, heck, even a not so recognized source on the internet (e.g. someone's blog), then feel free to make a case. But just making wild general accusations without any support detracts from the quality of this site.

--Mark
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

Shawn, comments like these are inciteful and wildly inappropriate. If you can provide some evidence that this is true, perhaps a research study, a news report, or even a recognized source, heck, even a not so recognized source on the internet (e.g. someone's blog), then feel free to make a case. But just making wild general accusations without any support detracts from the quality of this site.

--Mark


Those comments do not match with my Canadian experience. In Toronto there is very little difference in the wages paid to people based on race or origin. There is a difference if their experience is foreign rather than Canadian, but that applies to the Scots and the Irish as much as it does to the Indians and the Chinese. Actually both Indian and Chinese programmers are very highly respected.
Andrew Monkhouse
author and jackaroo
Marshal Commander

Joined: Mar 28, 2003
Posts: 11404
    
  81

I think moderation is best left to the moderators. What's acceptable/tolerable/off-limits etc to each one of us is different and we will let the moderators warn us if/when we reach that threshold.
We rarely have a problem with anybody posting a general request for forum members to remember the "be nice" rule (similar to David's post). "What's acceptable/tolerable/off-limits etc to each one of us is different" also applies to the moderators - I might not realise that a particular post by somebody else offends another person.

Likewise, if you are offended by a particular post in any topic or forum, please let a moderator or Sherrif know about it. This site is for everybody's enjoyment.

More importantly though, we should all be doing our best to ensure our posts do not offend anybody. We do understand that this is not always possible - it is always possible that some post may be found offensive no matter how friendly the original post was intended. But it is important to try.

We would prefer it if forum members did not wait for moderators to tell them that they have overstepped the boundaries - this sort of attitude has unfortunately lead to some people appearing to test the boundaries: trying to see what they can get away with before their posts get deleted. This attitude annoys the moderators, and tends to get accounts locked. It is much more sensible for each person to moderate themselves.

Regards, Andrew
[ August 08, 2005: Message edited by: Andrew Monkhouse ]

The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam with J2SE 5: paper version from Amazon, PDF from Apress, Online reference: Books 24x7 Personal blog
Prem Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 189
I was giving my opinion on a topic and sorry if i offended anyone with the my opinion on the subject, I was not offended by anyone
[ August 08, 2005: Message edited by: Shawn DeSarkar ]
Homer Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 311
More importantly though, we should all be doing our best to ensure our posts do not offend anybody.

In keeping with Mark's statement, I've heard Rush Limbo say you just have to stand up to the liberals. Shawn's statements, while midly, polemic are just real . But I like Shawn's opinions, I sure hope he keeps expressing them.

Sometimes I think the be nice rule is see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

I haven't seen notthing particularily offensive in this thread. I have no idea why Meara popped up out of lurking. I'm with Shawn, I've seen lots of foreign nationals in the US being underpaid the prevailing wage. I find it very offensive that certain people see no evil.

They are usually the same people. The setiment is always, I'm doing fine, everything is great. I've followed this board for a long, long time. The original poster's point is clear and accurate. The poster's on the JR are more and more of non-US origin.

It's true. Indian's statistically are not any better quality wise and no worse. Indian's in India can be cheaper. That's a good thing.
[ August 08, 2005: Message edited by: Homer Phillips ]
gov kur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2004
Posts: 73
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) Indian computer science graduates that had left for US in the 70's and the 80's had become immensely succesful. Every student who had enrolled in Junior Science college started dreaming of becoming the next Sameer Bhatia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well actually its Sabir Bhatia
[ August 08, 2005: Message edited by: gov kur ]
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

Nice post Jayesh!

- Manish
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Originally posted by Jayesh Lalwani:

2) Lots of Junior science colleges. There was a certain prestige in getting admission into a science college, and only the best students could get admission into a Junior science college

Rather than prestige,it was reality that Commerce/Arts grads were not getting jobs at all.Starting salary for commerce grad from descent college was not used to exceed beyond Rs 2000 per month where as those with engineering degree used to get more than 4k.I am talking about this in early eighties.

3) Indian computer science graduates that had left for US in the 70's and the 80's had become immensely succesful. Every student who had enrolled in Junior Science college started dreaming of becoming the next Sameer Bhatia.

I really doubt about above thing.First,Sabeer Bhatia came into limelight in 1997(1996?).
The real reason why many students opted to CS is not H1-B/money but govt policy in India.If you can recall in mid 80s,the then PM,Rajiv Gandhi and his advisors gave lot of boost to CS/eletrconics related things.Govt.enterprises in manufacturing sector were failing year after year.Private companies in engineering sector were rigid and lethargic.Without having some influence in a company,it was impossible to get a job for graduates.With no option left, govt funded many colleges/universities funded to start CS/Eletronics programs.Some organizations like CDAC/NCST/NCSA/National Informatics Center were founded.Govt too used to actively recruit grad for govt enterprises.Was H1-B existant till early 90s?It was later during early nineties,when actual body shopping started with H1B.
[ August 09, 2005: Message edited by: Arjunkumar Shastry ]
Jayesh Lalwani
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Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Arjunkumar Shastry:

I really doubt about above thing.First,Sabeer Bhatia came into limelight in 1997(1996?).
The real reason why many students opted to CS is not H1-B/money but govt policy in India.If you can recall in mid 80s,the then PM,Rajiv Gandhi and his advisors gave lot of boost to CS/eletrconics related things.Govt.enterprises in manufacturing sector were failing year after year.Private companies in engineering sector were rigid and lethargic.Without having some influence in a company,it was impossible to get a job for graduates.With no option left, govt funded many colleges/universities funded to start CS/Eletronics programs.Some organizations like CDAC/NCST/NCSA/National Informatics Center were founded.Govt too used to actively recruit grad for govt enterprises.Was H1-B existant till early 90s?It was later during early nineties,when actual body shopping started with H1B.

[ August 09, 2005: Message edited by: Arjunkumar Shastry ]



Yes, I think you are right. There was a push by the Rajiv Gandhi goverment in the 80's. And that was certainly a big factor in many Indians immigrating to US in the early 90's. However, by the mid-late 90's, almost every CS graduate was planning to go to US, and many BCom graduates were trying to either enroll in MCA or join a computer course. The Sabir Bhatia example was probably not the best one. I just threw it in there to illustrate that huge number of Indians were thinking about immigrating to US.

INS had "some" sort of worker visa program since 1965. However, if I am correct, the H1-b program as it exists now was defined by the Immigration Act of 1990. So, yes, I think the H1-B program existed in early 90's. However, probably in the early 90's, the number of Indians coming to US on H1B was a trickle. All the factors that I described resulted in the trickle growing into a flood by late 90's
peter wooster
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Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Mark,

Please read your PM.

thanks/peter
Homer Phillips
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Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 311
Why can't you just put it in the thread Peter?
Prem Khan
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Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 189
Yeah very curious
ab parashar
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Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
Originally posted by Marc Peabody:

Xbox Live will poison everyone's culture eventually.


Man dies after 49 hours of computer......... games.
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/12348161.htm
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: How come so many Indians?
 
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