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Are ranchers really good employee???

ankur rathi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830

Peter - If you want good candidates, you won't find any here (try the specialist recruitment consultancies in NY). Most users here are certification-addicted Indians


Sanjay Kumar posted this some days before in Job Offered forum. It affects me so much. Why? because most of the time I spent in reading meaning less drive, so I myself feel that a person who don't know about Javaranch and working on his project will be definitely better than me... just my example.. you may be different..

Second, I never seen any employee from Google, Microsoft, Yahoo etc who posted something here... but they are definitely good...

so I feel, Sanjay is right atleast to some extent.
Theodore Casser
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 1902

You'll forgive me if I take mild offense to the comment and disagree with you at the same time. I don't get the feeling most folks here are "certification-addicted Indians", and I know I certainly am not one. I might be "certification-addicted" depending on one's definition (though I should note as a clarification that all of my certs - except SCJA - are directly related to either what I do at my job or have done at previous employers), but I'm hardly Indian and I think it's a horrible stereotype to assume that 'most' are Indian here.

Most of the folks that I see in the fora here are professional programmers who are looking for/giving advice on problems they're encountering while using Java, or trying to connect with others who are in the same profession. I know that I certainly turn to here when I run into a coding problem on a project, in parallel with any searches I'm doing over at Sun's Java site and Google, since I have confidence that there are others here who either have run into the same problem, or have experience in that area.

Now, that's not to say that someone who isn't here necessarily will be better or worse of a programmer. But I certainly wouldn't discount a job applicant because they hang out here. (I'm actually be more likely to search for their posts and see how they think - I typically do that already when a resume crosses my desk.)

Further... I wouldn't expect someone from Microsoft to be hanging around here, nor would I necessarily expect an employee of Google or Yahoo! to identify themselves as such. Notice, for instance, that I don't mention what company I work for (it's none of those three), so why would you expect one of their employees to do any different?

Just a different viewpoint, I suppose, but... like any thought, it's really how you look at things.

[Edited to clarify the first paragraph.]
[ September 20, 2005: Message edited by: Theodore Casser ]

Theodore Jonathan Casser
SCJP/SCSNI/SCBCD/SCWCD/SCDJWS/SCMAD/SCEA/MCTS/MCPD... and so many more letters than you can shake a stick at!
Lewin Chan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 214
Well...

Speaking as someone who generally tries to give extremly terse answers to forum questions, I would have to tend to agree with the quote about certification addicted people, or to put it less perjoratively, it tends towards more question asking, than questions answered.

But, you have to remember that we're probably at the stage of this forum's lifetime where this kind of thing may have to be expected. As some one wrote once (I forget the link, but it was about newsgroups).

a) Forum is setup.
b) Interested parties (the hardcore) join, and the forum is useful.
c) "newbies" found out about the forum, and lurk / start posting drivel (or at least questions considered "drivel" by the hardcore)
d) Hard-core leave and go setup some other forum.

On the face of it, no, ranchers don't make good employees simply because a non-scientific poll of various questions on the boards leads to a couple of conclusions.

a) Ranchers don't know how to ask questions / don't know how to read documentation.
b) Ranchers don't tend to have good communication skills

Remember, I'm not trying to insult anyone's abilities, it's simply an observation, based on my own experience of answering questions here.

L


I have no java certifications. This makes me a bad programmer. Ignore my post.
Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 42915
    
  68
Theodore Casser wrote:
Further... I wouldn't expect someone from Microsoft to be hanging around here, nor would I necessarily expect an employee of Google or Yahoo! to identify themselves as such.

Right on the mark, and just what what I had wanted to post.

Lewin Chan wrote:
a) Ranchers don't know how to ask questions / don't know how to read documentation.
b) Ranchers don't tend to have good communication skills

Of course, there are quite a few very knowledgeable persons around here, and quite a few who articulate themselves very well, so a search here as part of the application due diligence is still worthwhile, if only to separate the two groups.
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
Thats why i say remove all those failed entries from your signature

Originally posted by rathi ji:


Sanjay Kumar posted this some days before in Job Offered forum. It affects me so much. Why? because most of the time I spent in reading meaning less drive, so I myself feel that a person who don't know about Javaranch and working on his project will be definitely better than me... just my example.. you may be different..

Second, I never seen any employee from Google, Microsoft, Yahoo etc who posted something here... but they are definitely good...

so I feel, Sanjay is right atleast to some extent.
Vladas Razas
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 02, 2003
Posts: 385

a) Ranchers don't know how to ask questions / don't know how to read documentation.
b) Ranchers don't tend to have good communication skills


The best programmers I've seen had very little or no communication skills at all. Programming is for nerds. It is for people who love to talk to computers. It's not for people who love to read manuals either.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 19060
    
  40

Originally posted by Vladas Razas:

The best programmers I've seen had very little or no communication skills at all. Programming is for nerds. It is for people who love to talk to computers. It's not for people who love to read manuals either.


I have to disagree with this... While I know many very good programmers that have very little communication skills, the "best" programmers are also very good communicators.

After all, you can't code if you don't understand the requirements, or the users.

Henry


Books: Java Threads, 3rd Edition, Jini in a Nutshell, and Java Gems (contributor)
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

Originally posted by Henry Wong:


I have to disagree with this... While I know many very good programmers that have very little communication skills, the "best" programmers are also very good communicators.

After all, you can't code if you don't understand the requirements, or the users.

Henry


I agree wholehertedly with Henry!!

And most ranchers are at least participating (in whichever way they can) in online Java community, rather than passing on condescending remarks. And no, not most ranchers are "certificate crazy" Indians.

- Manish
nithin nambiar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 31
the perception that good programmers doesn't have good communication skill is wrong .
you wont be a very good programmer untill & unless you are able to communicate well with your client and peers.
There will be always a section of people who will be only interested in writing programs and least interested in other aspects of life.
that doesnt necessarily mean they are good programmers.
Anjali S Sharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2005
Posts: 279
Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:

And no, not most ranchers are "certificate crazy" Indians.



What's wrong in being certification crazy. If someone works full time and in the free time rather than doing soemthing else prepares for certification what's so demeaning in that?
Vladas Razas
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 02, 2003
Posts: 385
The good communication is needed in small companies where you need to understand business model, talk to customer etc. If you work on huge project in big company, then all what is expected from you - more functionality, better code. You will not have any chance to talk to customers. Everything that is needed will be given by QA, business analysts and project leads. Those people usually have technical background and programmer doesn't need to have lot's of communication skills. Another area is smaller but highly technical projects, like networking authentication/protocols/various utilities. This is where you don't usually have customers either. Java is no longer good for small business projects. I think chances are that most Java programmers already work on big or bigger J2EE projects. If a company is looking for all-around computer specialist then yes communication skills are needed. But chances are no Java wanted at these positions.
Sachin Mehra
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 07, 2005
Posts: 77
Why are we associating the forum to the programmers? I think its for the entire software community, all across the world at all levels. People might be at any level and not necessarily a pregrammer (literally) in the organization . I have seen people dicuss about lot of things how the s/w industry is changing, career paths, options for higher levels, and lot of other things.
ankur rathi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
Originally posted by Vladas Razas:
The good communication is needed in small companies where you need to understand business model, talk to customer etc. If you work on huge project in big company, then all what is expected from you - more functionality, better code. You will not have any chance to talk to customers. Everything that is needed will be given by QA, business analysts and project leads. Those people usually have technical background and programmer doesn't need to have lot's of communication skills. Another area is smaller but highly technical projects, like networking authentication/protocols/various utilities. This is where you don't usually have customers either. Java is no longer good for small business projects. I think chances are that most Java programmers already work on big or bigger J2EE projects. If a company is looking for all-around computer specialist then yes communication skills are needed. But chances are no Java wanted at these positions.


Totally different view
But I disagree.. better (onsite) opportunities are highly relative with communication skills...
 
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