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labor shortage in India too!!!

Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Labor shortage in India

..
Even Genpact, India's largest outsourcing shop and 40 per cent owned by GE, has had to be innovative. It has set up a half-dozen storefronts in six cities to recruit workers for entry-level outsourcing jobs. The skill shortage "is the biggest challenge for our industry," says Pramod Bhasin, chief executive of Genpact. So far, Genpact has hired 650 new staffers from the centres, but its turnover is still 30 per cent a year.


Namma Suvarna Karnataka
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Can we say that "Quality Labour shortage in India"
Prasanna Diwadkar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 17, 2005
Posts: 35
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:
Can we say that "Quality Labour shortage in India"


makes sense. :roll:


-Prasanna(Jaguu) <br /><b>For Java jobs in China PRC contact Hu Jiabo </b><br />Fighting spam from Sampigee Series
Hu Jiabao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2004
Posts: 39
Originally posted by Dharam singh:


makes sense. :roll:

Please eleborate.How come heavy offshoring is going on in country which has not produced any good software or hardware which can be used globally.
Sorry for my bad english.


working in Shanghai CHINA PRC
Chetan Parekh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 3636
I am not aware of the condition of metros, but in medium and small towns, very difficult to get “Quality Labor” – both skilled and unskilled.

Since last 3-4 years, my bookseller is looking for a person who can handle his inventory and write e-mail to customers and suppliers. He always asks for the reference when I visit his shop, which is in a small down of India.


My blood is tested +ve for Java.
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Originally posted by Chetan Parekh:

Since last 3-4 years, my bookseller is looking for a person who can handle his inventory and write e-mail to customers and suppliers. He always asks for the reference when I visit his shop, which is in a small down of India.

Its not that it can not be done but financially its less attractive to many shops.The bookseller in your town possibly will not shed more than Rs 20,000 for this solution?? That becomes the starting monthly salary of a programmer. . If you ask him for more,he will better spend little more and purchase Talley which is extremely popular among small scale business.
Even if you go for LAMP(Linux,Apache,My SQL,PHP) customizing this requires considerable effort.
[ November 08, 2005: Message edited by: Arjunkumar Shastry ]
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Originally posted by Hu Jiabao:

Please eleborate.How come heavy offshoring is going on in country which has not produced any good software or hardware which can be used globally.
Sorry for my bad english.


Its just because of good english.
Hu Jiabao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2004
Posts: 39
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:


Its just because of good english.

I know that english is a good language.

Deep Arora
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 14, 2003
Posts: 40
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:


Its just because of good english.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I know that english is a good language.

_________________________________

If I were you, I wouldn�t be sorry for not having command over a language but surely would be sorry for disparaging remarks over a country like India.
Anand Prabhu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 299
Originally posted by Hu Jiabao:

Please eleborate.How come heavy offshoring is going on in country which has not produced any good software or hardware which can be used globally.
Sorry for my bad english.

Actually, this would be another thread if you can prove that India has not produced any quality software at all. I don't think India is considered to be a hardware giant as of now. Corporations are not dumb to outsource if they feel that the quality is never (repeat never) good. Bad products/software will definitely dent the corporations. And if you have been following the US/IT software industry, you will see the usual. Some projects well done, some pathetic, some so-so.
Since you are from PRC and you raise such a query, maybe you can start looking at the one of the hot issues discussed in USA. Walmart. They have a conference this month (don't know the date) where the supporters and opponents will discuss the economic impact on USA because of Walmart's practices. Trust me, PRC, outsourcing (especially the supply chain side) will be discussed. And then maybe, you will reconsider before trying to put down another country without hard facts.
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
hu Jiabo

please visit this site before saying crap about india http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1019866,00.html
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Hu Jiabao,

You first name is the first name of Chinese President and your last name is the last name of the Prime Minister.



Groovy
Deep Arora
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 14, 2003
Posts: 40
Hu Jiabao,

We can give you benefit of doubt if you admit that you don�t mean what is implied by what you said and your 'sentence formation skills' is to be blamed not you. We understand that and believe me there is nothing wrong in not being proficient in any language, unless you plan to be a linguistic by profession. I suck at French although god knows how badly I want to learn that language.
Amitabh Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Posts: 59
Originally posted by Hu Jiabao:

Please eleborate.How come heavy offshoring is going on in country which has not produced any good software or hardware which can be used globally.
Sorry for my bad english.


For those in doubt about india's ability to innovate, please refer to folloing link. Compare this company's achievements in china with its Indian achievements.


Sun Microsystem

Key Achievements in China:

Year of Entry :1987

1987 Opened the China market
1992 Contributed to the Enterprise computing business in China
1995 Birth of Java technology and promotion into China
1996 Launch of Ultra Workstation/Server product
1997 Launch of Sun Enterprise 10000 server
1998 Launch of Java 2 software platform
2001 Established Sun China Engineering & Research Institute (ERI)
2003 Launch of N1 series product, and restructured the Enterprise Data Center
2005 Launched Solaris 10



Key Achievements in INDIA :

Year of Entry :1996

India Engineering Center(IEC) has created innumerable innovative products and conducts research on the cutting edge of many fields. IEC has been Sun's fastest growing engineering facility and now is the largest such site outside of the US with over 160 patent disclosures and over 8 major product releases.



[ November 16, 2005: Message edited by: Amitabh Reddy ]
[ November 16, 2005: Message edited by: Amitabh Reddy ]
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
Good job Amitab
Luigi Auriemma
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 2
"8 major product releases"??

Name one significant industry-mass product that was created in India which is used around the world, and we might believe you. I think that there is *very* little, if any, innovation in India.
Amitabh Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Posts: 59
Originally posted by Luigi Auriemma:
"8 major product releases"??

Name one significant industry-mass product that was created in India which is used around the world, and we might believe you. I think that there is *very* little, if any, innovation in India.


It is not my claim. A very respected American IT Company named Sun Microsystem has put it on their web site. I have provided a link to the site for confirmation. Serach for word Sun India

Please follow it here
Sun Microsystem



[ November 16, 2005: Message edited by: Amitabh Reddy ]
[ November 16, 2005: Message edited by: Amitabh Reddy ]
Deep Arora
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 14, 2003
Posts: 40
Luigi Auriemma,

You can deny all the evidences although no one in his correct state of mind would do that. Why you just cant digest the fact that Indian IT is leading the the sw Industry across the globe .I would not hesitate in admitting that PRC is doing much better that India in manufactering sector and UK is the hub for forex market.

You can refuse to admit the obvious at your own peril but then people would question other things beside language constraints.

Deepak
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Deep !

[B]Luigi Auriemma,
You can deny all the evidences although no one in his correct state of mind would do that. Why you just cant digest the fact that Indian IT is leading the the sw Industry across the globe .I would not hesitate in admitting that PRC is doing much better that India in manufactering sector and UK is the hub for forex market. You can refuse to admit the obvious at your own peril but then people would question other things beside language constraints.[B]

You must have taken Luigi Auriemma's stating the wrong way, for he didn't use the right words for exposing his idea, so it looks like you reacted in a totally exagerated way ("Why you just cant digest the fact that Indian IT is leading the the sw Industry across the globe", a totally over-boasting statement to me).

Luigi Auriemma didn't try do look on India with despise, he simply expressed with incorrect words a very important statement : India is no worldwide technological leader for it has no worldwide leader product.

Of course India has a huge pool of excellent IT pros (with only 20% of them really very good, as for any other country, but as they are very numerous this makes a huge number), but having good technical abilities is half of the job : the other half is using them for making leading market products, which India doesn't do.

All the info provided before prooved that most of the very best Indian IT pros are either employed in USA or by US R&D centres in India, which is excellent for US but not for India : which major market product did these most brilliant Indian design to be sold by Indian companies for Indian profit for a leader position on world market ? None, or so little known that ordinary IT pros cannot name them.

When Luigi Auriemma stated "there is *very* little, if any, innovation in India" he was not so wrong, for although there are many potentially innovative Indians there is almost not any single innovative Indian product on market for Indian profit. He meant technological talent is very little if there is no commercial talent to take advantage of it.

If such real leader companies as SAP, Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, Documentum, Business Objects, ... were Indian I would agree that Indian IT is leading the software industry across the globe, but it is not the case at all, far from it. I cannot even state, despite a decent knowledge of IT market, any Indian company which is leader on its market, except WhizLabs for Java certifications.

I don't want to despise any Indian with such statement, I am involved in a startup and only thinking about making my company succeed, and I respect everyone. Simply be conscious yourself that despite India has a great number of IT talents available now, they are used for foreign profit (mainly US), not for India profit, because there is no commercial effort made in India to take advantage of the technical talent for Indian interests. The best technics in world is nothing if there is no commercial process behind to allow a real development. The chinese are very likely the future software world leaders and not India because despite they have totally comparable technical power and population, they have built commercial facilities integrated to their university campus so as to allow full funding and commercial exploitation of their startups, so they have a real advantage.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
This doesn't strike me as Job Discussion (in it's general form) so much as a hijacked thread about the quality of India's code. While that might be an interesting and germane discussion, I think it was begun antagonistically. If this thread doesn't change it's tone, I will close it shortly.

--Mark
sid ansari
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 7
Good idea mark. Please shut this thread down else the irrationality might go on forever!

Sid
Deep Arora
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 14, 2003
Posts: 40
Eric Lemaitre
________________***************__________________
you must have taken Luigi Auriemma's stating the wrong way, for he didn't use the right words for exposing his idea, so it looks like you reacted in a totally exagerated way ("Why you just cant digest the fact that Indian IT is leading the the sw Industry across the globe", a totally over-boasting statement to me).
________________***************__________________




If Luigi Auriemma's has not chosen the correct words for expressing his ideas then he would have responded so. I wouldnt assume ,interpretate & advocate some one else views based on what I think he is stating or Implied I dont know about other people.
________________***************__________________

Of course India has a huge pool of excellent IT pros (with only 20% of them really very good, as for any other country, but as they are very numerous this makes a huge number), but having good technical abilities is half of the job : the other half is using them for making leading market products, which India doesn't do.
________________***************__________________


well I am glad to hear that only 20% of Indian IT professional are good I hope you have simmilar estimates for chinease, USA and other countries as well. However I wouldnt think of this as any more than figment of Imagination or at best your personal views. We all are entitled to believe what we want to believe and close our eyes to reality. I would prefer to stay close to reality though.
________________***************__________________

because there is no commercial effort made in India to take advantage of the technical talent for Indian interests
________________***************__________________


If you watch Jim Cramer's 'Mad Money' show for say 2 weeks (I am assuming you are in USA) in a row you will know about companies called Infosys, Satyam Computers, TCS, Wipro and what 'India Focus' means.
Prem Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 189
I dont think there is a real shortage of labour anywhere in the world, especially India.

If people are willing to pay good money and good working conditions, smart people will be there ready to do work.

Poor money and poor working conditions and the smart people will stay away from it. (ie students in Canada are no longer going into comp sci)

I dont know how the IT shop condidtions are in India, but I know there is not a shortage of workers there.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Shawn !

I dont think there is a real shortage of labour anywhere in the world, especially India. If people are willing to pay good money and good working conditions, smart people will be there ready to do work. Poor money and poor working conditions and the smart people will stay away from it. (ie students in Canada are no longer going into comp sci) I dont know how the IT shop condidtions are in India, but I know there is not a shortage of workers there.

Yes and no, because there are two ways to see it.

I rather agree with you, in France we have about 40,000 unemployed IT people, so as an IT pro I estimate there is no shortage as even if one considers their skills are outdated some training would allow them to cope with newest software needs, so I admit no shortage as long as a significant number of professionals remain jobless. You are totally right too stating some countries, such as Canada and Spain, don't pay enough for computer field so there is an artificial shortage for lack of financial interest so as attracting enouggh people.

But on the other side, you perfectly know that recruiters are excessively demanding, they want any IT pro as minimal standard being really proficient in OS+RDBMS+development+networks, which means assimilating 4 professions into one, plus of course having strong functionnal assets, and this can be seen in almost any standard job ad. Very few IT pros are really as proficient in all assets recruiters now ask, perhaps 5% of them. I just entered a startup thanks to a technical test, I finished 2nd out of some 45, and my boss confirmed me they had great difficulties finding valuable people up to the level needed for the job, despite it was good but not extraordinary.

So are recruiters too demanding in skills, or are the IT pros not enough qualified considering the huge amount of skills nowadays needed in standard for IT jobs ? In first case there is no shortage, in second case there is a huge one. I don't know, but I consider IT now asks a gigantic amount of knowledge, perhaps more than in any other profession except physics, so IT job itself must have become extremely complex.

I consider anyway that Sameer Jamal & Dharam singh made an immediate good sensible answer : "Quality Labour shortage in India", as all the best Indians are already employed since very long, only less good are available now, as simple.

Best regards.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Deep !

If Luigi Auriemma's has not chosen the correct words for expressing his ideas then he would have responded so. I wouldnt assume ,interpretate & advocate some one else views based on what I think he is stating or Implied I dont know about other people.

Probably because it is extremely hard feeling like carrying on what should be a moderated and sensible discussion with someone who states "Why you just cant digest the fact that Indian IT is leading the the sw Industry across the globe" without attempting to moderating such a statement after having cooled down some. If one nation objectively rules worldwide software industry, then it is clearly USA : more than 90% of all the software used on all computers or routers/switches is from USA, OS (Windows), RDBMS (Oracle, DB2, SQL-Server), development tools (Eclipse, Java, .Net), IOS/CatOS (Cisco). I am not american, so I have no feeling at all about this fact. If all these software were Indian then Indian IT would be leading the software Industry across the globe, but there are almost all american. Period.

well I am glad to hear that only 20% of Indian IT professional are good I hope you have simmilar estimates for chinease, USA and other countries as well. However I wouldnt think of this as any more than figment of Imagination or at best your personal views. We all are entitled to believe what we want to believe and close our eyes to reality. I would prefer to stay close to reality though.

Yes, only (about of course) 20% of Indian IT professional are good and the remaining 80% are less good, the very same as for any country, whatever US or Europe or Asia. When you are into IT business long enough, there are 2 empiric laws you will hear about quickly : Murphy's law and Pareto principle (most famous as 80:20 rule). Of course they are not verified every time, but they remain very true as a rather accurate rule of thumb in any country for any business. Make a Google search if you have any doubt.

If you watch Jim Cramer's 'Mad Money' show for say 2 weeks (I am assuming you are in USA) in a row you will know about companies called Infosys, Satyam Computers, TCS, Wipro and what 'India Focus' means.

You musn't have read what was written before, for we are not speaking about the same thing (I will exagerate the terms so as to be clearer) : the companies (Infosys, Satyam Computers, TCS, Wipro) you are stating are big but all almost exclusively employed by foreign companies as sub-contractors for minor tasks (coding and unit testing) while main upper tasks (design and integration) still remain at foreign companies' home, especially the ultimate real value which is the final software sale. If you prefer (still exagerated to emphasize the idea) nowaday USA rules world software role because they mainly design and sell it but declining for they don't longer innovate, India rules world outsourcing role because they are main sub-contractors but in danger for becoming too expensive compared to others (Ukrainia, Pakistan, China), and China is probably the next world software leader because they are both very strong through outsourcing now and invest much about designing new software generation with the necessary task force to sell it worldwide.

I am an European, so I am not involved at all about software struggle between USA, China and India, don't expect from me any kind of personnal partial interest to defend any of these countries. There is no despise either towards Indians stating they are mainly used in secundary outsourcing role, for everyone knows that some of the best Indians are already in USA with superior wages to design the outsourced software, and the fact that the best Indians are all hired by US R&D centers or by US companies on US soil prooves their value.

The idea is again India's present IT richness relies almost exclusively on outsourcing, which is extremely dangerous for as wages grow exponentially it is already becomming too expensive (simple price/quality ratio) compared to other nations (mainly Pakistan, Philipines, China, Ukrainia). There is no despise in this estimation, I could say as well that oil producting countries are in great danger if they don't anticipate oil's end within 30 years, or most they will fall from present extreme richness to poverty.

The obvious way for India to make profit of its present richness is to use it along with its huge skills pool to become software makers (orders givers, if you prefer), so that most of software running in tomorrow computer equipments are Indian rather than American as they are today. So as to become IT leader India has not to make only parts of software, but complete software solutions and sell them worldwide. This is exactly what the chinese are preparing for : (some about) 665,000 research scientists, 15 millions of students, 20 new universities opened each year, 38% patents grow a year (1.9% for USA), doubled investments in research every 5 years, international patents multiplied by more than 100 within 8 years. Simply no country invests as much as China in research for future, even USA is very far behind.

Best regards.
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
A completely unbiased post from Eric.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: labor shortage in India too!!!