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Which country to immigrate to..?

Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
I basically did an analysis on the immigration policies of various countries..

As per what I find the Countries that allow immigration of skilled labour are
*Canada
*Australia
*New Zealand
*Singapore
*UK (HSMP)

In all the countries listed above skilled migration is allowed subject to crossing a specific score..
For Canada it is 67 points..for Australia it is 115 points..Similar is the case with the other countries too..
Can someone please throw light about the IT job market in all the above countries...Can you please rank the countries in the order of attractivness of the j2ee job market..?

How about other countries like japan,malaysia,Germany,France,Netherlands etc..Is there a possibility to move from India to these countries..?
ab parashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
Sanjay,
Have you read the posts on this forum about the hardships faced by IT professionals for their growth in these countries?

If not, please do so.

If yes, then you should know that the best place for you is India.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9996845/?headline=Can~Europe~still~compete~in~technology?

http://www.journalhome.com/codecraft/13920/

Excerpts:

"The practical reality is that anyone in India who can spell Java already has a job. When we were first doing interviews I remember one particular period of time when there were two of us doing interviews continuously for two weeks straight without finding a single candidate worth bringing back for a second round. Admittedly I can be a tough (and technical) interviewer, but I've literally interviewed thousands of people over my 18 years in the industry and I've never had a tougher stretch. It reminded me of the internet boom years when everyone who had ever been a system administrator was suddenly a programmer and when you did find someone really good they wanted 3% of the company and a signing bonus. The only difference is that the current Indian market is ten times more difficult."
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
ab Parashar,
I do agree that India is the most hot place to work now..but the pay package isn't too great..That is the only reason that prompts me to look at other countries...anyways i dont have any intention to permanently settle down in any of these countries..I just want to work there for max 10 years save substantial money and then come back to India..
Stuart Ash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 07, 2005
Posts: 637
In a developing country like India, you can buy a lot petty things, especially labour, that you cannot at the same cost in deeloped nations. For many purposes, the huge socio-economic disparity means you can afford a lot many comforts westerners just cannot in their home countries.

Think about that as well.


ASCII silly question, Get a silly ANSI.
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Ok now Seriously, how many of you living outside India are desperate to get back to India because of availability of number of cheap jobs? . If you are, why are'nt you here yet.
Stuart Ash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 07, 2005
Posts: 637
Karthik, who is your question targeted to??
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
Stuart Ash,

Ok..let us look at these facts..

Cost of a descent car in india Rs 4 lakh
Cost of a 800 square feet apartment in Bangalore =around 22 -24 lakh

My present pay package is 4.75 lakh/annum..consider an annual increment of around 10%

Assume that I save around 3 lakh /annum..and it rises 10% every year..How many years will it take me to accumulate 22 lakhs..By my conservative estimate around 5-6 years..By the time I save this money the property price would have tripled or quadrupled..So it would be a rat race..

This is the only reason..the situation here is not like what is in US or in UK where you can get a car in your 1 month salary..

Now what do you say..?
Rajagopal Manohar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2004
Posts: 183
Originally posted by Sanjay Ramasamy:
Stuart Ash,

Ok..let us look at these facts..

Cost of a descent car in india Rs 4 lakh
Cost of a 800 square feet apartment in Bangalore =around 22 -24 lakh

My present pay package is 4.75 lakh/annum..consider an annual increment of around 10%

Assume that I save around 3 lakh /annum..and it rises 10% every year..How many years will it take me to accumulate 22 lakhs..By my conservative estimate around 5-6 years..By the time I save this money the property price would have tripled or quadrupled..So it would be a rat race..

This is the only reason..the situation here is not like what is in US or in UK where you can get a car in your 1 month salary..

Now what do you say..?


I am in san antonio now without a car. For most of the desi's around me who have a car it costs sligthly more than 1 months salary. But these are all mostly 2nd hand 1998 models. You could get a M800 2nd hand for 80,000K back home dude and do you think you could own a home in these countrys with 1 years salary? think again.

It was not s fair comparison, try and think if you have any other reason to immigrate like work quality, coming back to india in 5 years etc..
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Hi Rajagopal ,

A quick question -

Who is more likely to afford an apartment in bangalore?

A person who spends say first 5 years (of his career) in india.
OR
Someone who has spent the same amount of time abroad.
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Originally posted by Karthik Guru:
Hi Rajagopal ,

A quick question -

Who is more likely to afford an apartment in bangalore?

A person who spends say first 5 years (of his career) in india.
OR
Someone who has spent the same amount of time abroad.


The 2nd one. I dont know a flat or a car.


Groovy
ab parashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
Karthik,sanjay

If you compare dollar to a dollar, of course you will never make that much in India but there is something called PPP.

Your worth is determined by what you are in the society you live in.If you are able to buy a $2000 car in the US with one months salary that will be like buying a used hero-honda in India.You are comparing Apples to Oranges.

You should have visited the job fair in the bay area (for companies hiring in India) and seen number of Indian's who are US citizens/GC holders going back to India,since they can have a better quality of life there.You will know what I am talking about.

Another major factor is career stability.If you are want to migrate, you should be prepared to face protracted phases of unemployement.Your savings can get wiped out in that time, not to mention what affect it will have on your resume.This is just one of the issues you will have to face.

Frankly speaking you will not be able to enjoy life as you do in India,if you want to save.If sitting at home and watching the crappiest of Hindi movies is your idea of fun, then you should go ahead.Here you will have a boring routine life.There is a richness to existance in India.Here the only topic of discussion among the desi folks is outsourcing and loss of jobs to India.

If you are unhappy in India about your salary and stuff then you will be unhappy here as well since there will be people around you making a lot more,then where you migrate to?

If you are enjoying yourslef in India and want to come here and enjoy(not save) then you should go ahead.
ab parashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
As far as your question about a flat in Bangalore....

I have many friends here in the US who have made millions...first in stocks then in real estate both in California and in Bangalore.....but they never had the money to put everything down upfront.

Right now the cost of a flat in B'lore is 50 lakhs...who knows where it will be by the time you are able to save even 20Lakhs?

Your target of saving money will always be a moving one....even out of India...
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Even if you consider H1-Bs who are supposed to get exploited in terms of salary,minimum saving they can do is no less than $1000 per month.That becomes 46,000 ~ 45,000.So per year H1-B can save upto Rs 540000.This is the yearly salary of 5-7 years experience programmer in India!!Even if H1-B is not given green card,by the end of say 3 to 6 years he has sufficient money.
In short,regardless of how many jobs are offshored to India ,people will always be interested in going abroad.This has nothing to do with type or number of jobs.


Namma Suvarna Karnataka
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Originally posted by ab parashar:

Right now the cost of a flat in B'lore is 50 lakhs...who knows where it will be by the time you are able to save even 20Lakhs?
Your target of saving money will always be a moving one....even out of India...

The thing is people when migrate look much more than money.Quality of life matters the most and most important whether afforadable housing,eating,medical faclities are within the reach of common man or not.In case of India answer is NO.So you see people ready to migrate to war proned Iraq.People ready to make duplicate passports.People going on asylum and people going on fake programming experience.I am not justifying this but this is the reality.
ab parashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
Originally posted by Arjunkumar Shastry:

The thing is people when migrate look much more than money.Quality of life matters the most and most important whether afforadable housing,eating,medical faclities are within the reach of common man or not.In case of India answer is NO.So you see people ready to migrate to war proned Iraq.People ready to make duplicate passports.People going on asylum and people going on fake programming experience.I am not justifying this but this is the reality.


If you are talking about Indian cabbies/asylum seekers and putting them in this discussion I think you are talking of two different set of people.If your financials are in such dire straits then good luck to you.

But I am talking about someone who is worried about his career path and money or a house is something that is secondary.You need to first decide in what category you are..??

If you work( java coding or taxi driving) just for money then your job would be like a marriage that has been based just on sex!!

Begin participating in "Kaun Banega Crorepati". That's a better bet than slogging in the US and saving $200K only to realize that the dollar is selling for Rs. 20 then. Then save $200 k again only to find that the $ is now down to Rs. 10 .. And with high indian inflation,you have to adjust your rupee target every year . Due to inflation real estate is out of question for most Indians and even for NRIs with substantial savings.


Some arrive here thinking they can save all the money after food and lodging, but after few weeks find life is interesting here and start expanding their budget and reduce savings.
Initially after arriving in US most of us are very careful with money. However as times passes and we adjust to the American way of life, we start spending on vacations and comforts more.

I know n number of people in india who earn 10 lacs in india save a bit for their retirement and other things and live a very luxurious life in india .

imp. my definition of luxurious is not a merc and dining in a five star on a friday.

To the original poster: How much savings are enough for you?
Varun Khanna
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2002
Posts: 1400
Originally posted by ab parashar:

If you work( java coding or taxi driving) just for money then your job would be like a marriage that has been based just on sex!!




- Varun
Damanjit Kaur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Posts: 346
Even though there are lot of IT jobs in India and good high salaries but those are not for each and every IT professionals there.

India is a Democratic country but there too, exist discriminations and its even more painful to get discriminated or (being seen with hatred without any of your fault) in your place of birth country than in other foreign country.

Its difficult, boring and routine life outside India(No doubt in that) but still those migrate once never want to go back to India. why?

Those who speak out the truth are always hated and not liked why? I remember once - 'Sonia' (I haven't seen her posts since long time) was showered with so much harsh comments when she wrote about her real feelings about going back to India. She was in a phase of searching jobs in India and migrated back to India from US.
Deep Arora
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 14, 2003
Posts: 40
We all are mature Individuals with diffrent aspirations and values. Somebody here is trying to Immigrate to other country but not sure which one is his best bet as far as IT jobs are concerned. I would rather focus on the concerns of the person who originated the thread.

My bet would be on UK if IT market is the criteria and Austrelia if I India like weather is my concern.

However I reiterate that US is the overall best however it does not have Immigration proggrame like other countries have. Canada has some horror stories from the skilled professionals, however you may have other rasons to consider that. One advantage of canada Immigration is once you are an canadian citizen you can live and work in USA like any other US green card holder.
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
Deep Arora Thanks for your suggestion..

Ab parashar,

I believe that there is nothing wrong in being ambitious....The only mistake I did after my BE was to have studied in India..I got admit in a couple of US Universities and reputed Indian Universities..I decided to study in India..Many of my classmates who went there are now comfortably settled in US..I desire to earn like them..So now the only option left for me is to either go there to study again or to find a job and immigrate there..Right now I am a fresher with just 3 months of experience..so now I am little short of the qualifying score for immigrating to other countries..but withayear's experience I would very well cross the barrier..

I may sound greedy..but i dont want to hide anything ..It is just that I am being Frank..Of course money is equally essential as your career...

My original intention of starting the thread was to get an idea about job market in other countries..It is easy to advice others to stay in India and work but as Karthik said how many of the people who suggest this are ready to come back inspite of the market here being good...
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Hi Ab,

I will probably frame a reply to your response later (there is too much to write ) . But could'nt help noticing this ..


If sitting at home and watching the crappiest of Hindi movies is your idea of fun, then you should go ahead.


Most hindi movies are crappy, you might be spending $1 on a dvd - sasthe chuthe , we end up shelling out few 100s in blr multiplexes.

Btw, we normally spend our late evenings on bangalore roads. and you?

Most of the time I end up with *another* dent in my vehicle. I'm not sure about others though. If they feel otherwise , they probably dont live here .
ab parashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
It is easy to advice others to stay in India and work but as Karthik said how many of the people who suggest this are ready to come back inspite of the market here being good...


Go to a forum called R2I ( return to India...google for it) you will find hundreds if not thousands of Indian's "settled" in the US who are trying to return.
[ November 17, 2005: Message edited by: ab parashar ]
ab parashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
Originally posted by Karthik Guru:
Hi Ab,

I will probably frame a reply to your response later (there is too much to write ) . But could'nt help noticing this ..

[qb]
If sitting at home and watching the crappiest of Hindi movies is your idea of fun, then you should go ahead.


Most hindi movies are crappy, you might be spending $1 on a dvd - sasthe chuthe , we end up shelling out few 100s in blr multiplexes.

Btw, we normally spend our late evenings on bangalore roads. and you?

Most of the time I end up with *another* dent in my vehicle. I'm not sure about others though. If they feel otherwise , they probably dont live here .[/QB]


It costs a lot more to go to the movies, and dude thats not what I do but thats what most of the Desi's do.

I try to live my life, without worrying(much) about savings....There are people who save in India and people who save out of India...but I am not one of them.
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Originally posted by ab parashar:
As far as your question about a flat in Bangalore....

I have many friends here in the US who have made millions...first in stocks then in real estate both in California and in Bangalore.....but they never had the money to put everything down upfront.


Actually you dont have to put everything down. A little would be enuf. The "$:INR" ratio helps there.


Right now the cost of a flat in B'lore is 50 lakhs...who knows where it will be by the time you are able to save even 20Lakhs?
Your target of saving money will always be a moving one....even out of India...


Again! tell me for whom will it be easier to invest 50 lacs?
I dont want to duplicate my previous post here
ab parashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 130
My dad says Money is not everything, but in the US,its close to everything.

The best place for you to go would be the US, in terms of quality of life and oppertunities,freedom and lack of discrimination(relatively), it is the place to be,but I noticed that its not even up there in your list!!

If you are willing to put up with a fear of layoff's in your day to day life and are prepared for unemployment then only should you consider it.As far as your friends are concerned, I am not sure how you consider them to be settled....have they become GC Holders/US citizens already?? If not then being on a H1-B does not classify as being settled, remember they are endangered species once this market loses steam....

And by the way dont think that this boom in India will last forever so you can always come back to it....

Enough said....I would not want to discuss this issue anymore.

Thanks.
Amit Saini
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 280
What are the pay packages that one gets in these countries? Do you have data on that?

*Canada
*Australia
*New Zealand
*Singapore
*UK (HSMP)

I could tell you about USA, but its not even at the top of your list as Ab pointed out. It should be! Its not too hard to get a package of 55-60k with a MS degree from a good university backed up by good analytical and communication skills. The highest this year in my univ (or former univ!) was 73k. Yes, an Indian got it and his H1B will be sponsored.


Ab->

It costs a lot more to go to the movies, and dude thats not what I do but thats what most of the Desi's do.


Thats a very sterotyped vision that you present to ranchers in India. I completely agree that it takes time to adjust here and socialize, you miss your family but its really not that bad if you have a good friend circle here.

Fact remains that a lot of desis are tight fisted and refuse to socialize. They will think ten times before going out to a club or dinner somewhere. How exactly is one supposed to enjoy without spending anything? They won't interact with anyone except Indian friends. Most won't make friends at work place either. Now who's to blame for this? USA or the individuals for not making an effort to socialize? What else will they do except watch free movies at home for timepass???

What do people do in India? Socialize with family and friends, right? You miss the family part in USA, I agree but its not that bad if you visit India once a year..and your parents visit you back here for sometime every year.

As far as job insecurity goes, I agree with Ab, layoffs can happen anywhere, anytime. However, if you're a direct hire (not hired through a body shopper), you have much more peace of mind. Ofcourse, there's no guarantee of anything

As far as 'enjoying and not saving' is considered, it depends. You got to draw the line somewhere. It's easy to get carried away in USA. If you discipline yourself, you can do both. I believe your goal should always be increasing your knowledge, performing well at work and aiming higher and not saving pennies. Earn more to spend and save more

R2I- Sure, sounds good. Whose stopping people from returning? Maybe after a few years in USA, I'll be a R2I candidate myself !! Who knows? What I do know is I'll be better off working the first 5-6 years here than in India. Reasons? Money, contacts, experience are some of them! Materialistic goods follow after that

All said and done, life's good in USA. I miss Bombay and I make it a point to visit home every year!

Just my views !!
Amit

[ November 17, 2005: Message edited by: Amit Saini ]
[ November 17, 2005: Message edited by: Amit Saini ]
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
Amit,

I dont have any idea about the pay package in the countries I mentioned..The countries in the list are the ones that have simple immigration policies..I am interested in US but I didn't mention that in my list because it is difficult to find a sponsor for H1-B visa..Someone said me that nowdays they give H1-B visa's only to people with US master's degree...I did my master's in India..
Amit Saini
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 280
Hi Sanjay,
I can understand the situation you currently face.
Having a MS is no restriction for you not to have another MS/MBA in USA.
A lot of my Chinese and Indian friends already had a MS when they came to USA. They went on to do another one.

The experience of studying here is completely unlike anything you might have experience in India. Totally different system.

My advice to you is: Avoid body shoppers. There is really no shortage of qualified Indians with MS degree in USA for companies to hire. Why would they bring someone from India without a US degree?

A body shopper who brings you from India on a H1b is going to suck your blood and its *really* not worth the trouble. You won't even have enough money to pay rent. They often keep a lot of desis in small apts. And these desis can't even move out because they don't have enough money. So avoid all that mess. Not only is that practice illegal, its going to drain you mentally.

The best thing you can do is:
1. Come for a MS next Fall.
2. Work for 2 years in India and come for a MBA.

Either ways, you gotta decide what degree you want. And its going to cost you money. It doesnt come free. You could get partial waivers but getting 100% scholarship is almost impossible unless you're really brilliant.

Getting a entry level job after MS is not a big deal as I mentioned earlier. (this also depends a lot on your location in USA). Anyhow, you'll have to take some risks. Its upto you to justify if its worth taking the risk or not. To each his own !

All the best in whichever path you choose!
Amit
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

Could you please let me know how these points are awarded or calculated?

- Manish
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
Amit..
Thanks for your suggestion..What you said is true..Even I was thinking in similar lines..I did my M.tech in IIIT-Bangalore...and am planning to give my GMAT shortly..I am specifically eyeing MS Financial engineering/Computational finance...Hope things work out the way I plan..Yes, as you said there is a risk but I dont want to miss the opportunity again and regret later..

Manish..
Basically there is a specific point for each satisfying criteria..
for example..if you have a masters degree you get 30 points..if you are between 20-40 you get some points..if your Toefl/Ielts score is above a certain mark you get some points..similary is the case with Australia..for Australia the qualifying criteria is 115 points..If you are an IT professionl you get 60 points straight..New Zealand also has a similary policy..Singapore's policy is also based on points system but it hasn't been made public...It looks like Singapore is much more hassle free..
UK has hsmp(highly skilled migrant programme)..you can get more details from the site..

check out this link..This will give you an idea whether you qualify for Canada..

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/assess/index.html
Amit Saini
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 280
Manish,
Each countrys embassy website has the criteria mentioned. Example, certain number of points for a BE degree, certain points for MS, certain points for each year of experience and so on.
Maybe someone else can give more specific details!
Amit
Amit Saini
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 280
Amit..
Thanks for your suggestion..What you said is true..Even I was thinking in similar lines..I did my M.tech in IIIT-Bangalore...and am planning to give my GMAT shortly..I am specifically eyeing MS Financial engineering/Computational finance...Hope things work out the way I plan..Yes, as you said there is a risk but I dont want to miss the opportunity again and regret later..


Sounds like you have planned a good move. All the very best to you in your endeavours.

BTW, there's a good market for Computational Finance. Wachovia, Bank of America, JP Morgan, Citigroup and lot of other NY biggies hire a lot of such candidates. Check out the CF program at NYU.edu. One of the best in the nation.
venkat kumar
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 13, 2005
Posts: 15
Hi,
If going for some onsite is the main criterion then I think service companies are the best.Because even if u want to do an MBA or another MS u need lots of money and after spending close to 4 lacs here for M.Tech it's quite difficult to spend another 15-20 lacs within few yrs.
I have seen so many of my friends (in TCS/CTS/INFY) going to US,UK,switz,germany..and so many places and I think they wud not have spent even half of what one wud have spent for his higher studies(MBA/MS).
They earn money in 2 -3 yrs return back to india and settle here well.

So coming to the original posting instead of trying some bodyshoppers or doing higher studies one can join these service companies and wait for your turn(for onsite).
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

Hmmmm..thanks guys!!!
Guess it's time to take Masters seriously.

- Manish
Amit Saini
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 280
it's quite difficult to spend another 15-20 lacs within few yrs.


10-12 MAX would be a more realistic figure for MS. I can't comment on MBA. Summer internship and a CPT in the last sem will help you to earn almost half of that. You're basically paying for tuition. The on campus job takes care of living expenses. You dont have to pay the amount all at once. Its over a period of 2 years. Lot of people get lucky and get course waivers, further reducing their tuition.

Amit
Stuart Ash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 07, 2005
Posts: 637
Originally posted by Karthik Guru:
Hi Rajagopal ,

A quick question -

Who is more likely to afford an apartment in bangalore?

A person who spends say first 5 years (of his career) in india.
OR
Someone who has spent the same amount of time abroad.


We need to break down the concepts here.

a. Indian national working in India.
b. US (or similar) national working in the US (or West.)
c. Indian national working in the US for a few years and going back to India.


With cases a and b, what I was saying in my first post in this thread perhaps hold.

When an Indian national works in the west and returns home, that's when the dollar-to-local currency difference turns out to be in his favor, letting him afford luxuries otherwise unaffordable.

I think some posters in this thread assumed the argument to be (a) v/s (b), and some (a) v/s (c). Lot of difference.
 
It is sorta covered in the JavaRanch Style Guide.
 
subject: Which country to immigrate to..?