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IIT stamp student , iitian are over rated than mca or msc

aashu garg
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 12
why this happens
an mca or msc in IT are not getting good wages
in compare to an iit ian ,
both have same knowledge
but an iitian have big stamp of iit
an iitian can do anything , every companies wants iitian
even he is from textiles , chemicals.
and he dont know much about it.

i think iitian are overrated
what other ranchers thinks about this
tell ur views
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
No I don�t think IITians are over-rated when it comes to entry level, as compared to ordinary engineering or computer science graduate they devote more time in research and practical solutions rather mugging up the university syllabus and solving 5 out of 7 or 8 questions in their examination. A fresh IITian has definitely an edge over a normal fresh graduate.

This is the same scenario when a graduate with a non computer science degree think why engineers? Even though he is much more technically sound than an engineering graduate but still engineering graduates are preferred in the market.

Unfortunately for the experienced professional also when we compare skill with qualification, qualification dominates, actually the qualification gives the companies a chance to filter the candidates when they are available in abundance.
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
My observation has been that they have superior problem solving skills (am not referring to any techonology specific skill) in general. Some of the best guys I have worked with in my career have been IIT-ians mostly and I dont think its a coincidence. If I were in the HR's shoes, I would do the same -pamper them more.
[ December 01, 2005: Message edited by: Karthik Guru ]
aashu garg
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 12
i know iitians have prooved themselves once by selectiong through iit .
but some iitian have misconcept that they are the most intelligent .
and all other mca , msc , BE (from private college ) are fool
but i thought everyone has potential ,
they just need to show it off.
Varun Khanna
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2002
Posts: 1400
Originally posted by aashu garg:
i know iitians have prooved themselves once by selectiong through iit .
but some iitian have misconcept that they are the most intelligent .
and all other mca , msc , BE (from private college ) are fool
but i thought everyone has potential ,
they just need to show it off.


Well clearing JEE / CAT isn't an idiots job considering the competion we have and the standard of examination. They are intelligent no harm in accepting that.
Regarding ego, well you can't generalise. I have seen down to earth folks too!
If they possess an attitude no issues to me. If you have any subtance you can beat them. JEE wasn't the only opportunity you had. I have seen non-IITian guys dictating things to world too.


- Varun
Zip Ped
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2005
Posts: 336
I certainly agree with the fact that IITian Stamp does matter when you are looking for a job as those guys are the best in the engineering field. And why shouldn't they be? They slogged to get into one of the best Engineering institutes in the world.

But when it comes to the Software market, at the end of the day all that really matters is who can get the Job done.

Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.
Arun Sharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 24, 2003
Posts: 40
I think IITians are brilliant, good problem solvers and good thinkers in general. They need to be treated differently as should be other NITians and REC Computer Science Engineers. Most of them are treated differently in the reality and that is the way it should be. They are definitely miles ahead at a fresher level as compared to other private engg college graduates and mca or msc or mcm or whatever other degrees are there. Of course there could be exceptions. There always are.

I have seen people graduating that too with a computer engg or computer tech or information tech without actually writing significant lines of codes from these colleges. There many freshers who have not seen unix in their life. The private college students are not made to work hard at all.
Whereas IITians would have written tonnes of lines of code by the time they graduate and have deep understanding of most of the core computer science. Many might have had some publications as well.

This is all what I have seen that I am writing here with all due respect to all non-IITian, non-REC colleges. Of course over the period of time, with experiece, they may be able to catch up with IITians.

Now, how can you measure these 2 categories on the same scale ? Does not make sense at all. The IITians need to get lot more respect because they are lot more capable.

Disclaimer: I belong to an REC/NIT.
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
good link about this..chk out

http://ravimohan.blogspot.com/2005/10/iit-grad-excellent-programmer.html
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
Eveyone from IIT are great engineers but not necessarily great programmers..I have seen many IIT'ans get eliminated in the first round of interview in my company..
Sanjay Ramasamy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 28
The below post is not my post..I am just doing a Ctrl-c Ctrl-v of the previous link

IIT Grad == Excellent Programmer?

This is something I have never been quite able to resolve. Logic says (hey the IIT BTech guys apparently work through SICP early and if that doesn't upgrade your programming skills I am not sure what will) they should be better programmers. And Google India apparently hires only IIT Grads, so there is probably something to that argument.

On the other hand, in my experience, this "superiority" of IIT grads never really showed itself as a real world phenomenon. Most (but not all) of the really good programmers I see, seem to have a BSc (or other non-BTEch-CompSci) background, and are almost uiversally self taught programmers.

While I was in Thoughtworks, I even went through this strange phase in which TW interviewed about 40 IIT Grads after a company that used to hire only IIT grads went bust, and ended up making an offer to one guy (and he was very very good. I knew him from my Aztec days. He eventually went to July Systems)

It is all very puzzling. Because I do know many bright people from IIT but they are almost all in the USA. So maybe that is one explanation? The best folks from IIT go to the USA and the people a Bangalore based company interviews are probably the "lesser" ones of a batch? Especially in the "enterprise" space? I really don't know. But is there really such a huge difference in the capabilities of people who studied in the same batch?

Of the 40 or so people TW interviewed,(and didn't hire), one interview really stands out. There was this guy who claimed a lack of knowledge of "enterprise" coding but was, in his own words, a "specialist in Compilers and Mathematical/Scientific Programming". The interview team consisted of me(very very interested, and fairly knowledgeable in compilers) and a colleague, JK Werner who graduated in Mathematics.

Those days, In Thoughtworks, one of the guidelines for interviewing was "If people don't know something, that's fine but what they say they know, they better know and know well". So the candidate not knowing "enterprise" stuff was fine(It is all fairly simple anyway and an otherwise competent programmer can pick it up fast).So JK and I proceeded to have a conversation about compilers and math and the interview was .... terrible. This person was just mouthing "buzzwords" without having any deep knowledge.

question(me):- "Ok so after lexing and parsing you get an AST what do you do then?"

answer:- "hmm... I am not sure.." (his cv claimed he'd written a full fledged "parallel compiler")

question (jk): "Your cv says you have worked extensively with Vector Spaces, so here is simple question to start off. What is an Eigen value"?

answer:"hmm well I never got that far" (!!). (as per his cv he did all sorts of fundamental Linear Algebra related stuff)

This was the most disappointing interview in my life. Other interviewers narrated horror stories of "Senior Architects" who didn't know what "classpath" was!

So I am forced to conclude, being bright, and getting through IIT(those entrance exams are tough) and even working as "Lead" or "Architect" or whatever on large projects does not necessarily make you a good(forget great) programmer.

Also "enterprise" work and that too in India is probably not attractive to the average IIT graduate who has so many more interesting options.

So these days I just dismiss the educational background and look at coding skills exclusively.

Still, it is all very strange. If anyone has any insights, please enlighten me!

Update

Joe Williams was kind enough to point out a possible misinterpretation (you can see Joe's comments in the comments section).

What I am saying

1. I used to think IIT graduates (and students) were way above average in programming ability.
2. I expected, given a fair (but tough) interview, about 35 (of 40) or so would get through. When only one did, I was forced to re examine my belief (see above)
3. When I examined the best programmers I knew and their schools, I found that most(but not all) were BSc/non comp-sci graduates.
4. This is possibly a perception issue. I am asking for clarification
5. Logically , I now believe that programming ability and schools are not correlated

What some people think I am saying

1. TW(India) is an uber cool company
2. Anyone who doesn't get through in TWI is a poor programmer
3. Most IIT folks we interviewed didn't get through
4. Therfeore IITs suck and any IIT ians are poor programmers

Needless to say what I am claiming is the first list of assertions. Anyone who claims the second list as "true" has no clue.

Thanks, Joe.

Now I have more questions, if 40 MIT graduates interviewed (say in Google), how many would get through? The question remains, does your school have a correlation with the number of people who are excellent programmers?

Hopefully now things are clear.
Ramesh Choudhary
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 200

i know iitians have prooved themselves once by selectiong through iit .
but some iitian have misconcept that they are the most intelligent .
and all other mca , msc , BE (from private college ) are fool
but i thought everyone has potential ,
they just need to show it off.


You hit the nail on it's head. There seems to be notion among Indian public that IIT Grads are straight from moon .I knew several IIT Grads. Guys getting within top 100 are really exceptional. There is nothing much to say about others. They are of the same level or sometimes inferior to bright people of other colleges.

But, there is a reason to celebrate. They may extract appreciable pay packets,but the work they do is not very different from that of other Grads. Why will a MNC outsource it's innovative work to India?
.



I certainly agree with the fact that IITian Stamp does matter when you are looking for a job as those guys are the best in the engineering field


This is yet an other misnomer. Not all IIT ian's are best.Some are exceptional, most of them are good and some of them are pathetic. One of my friends Who completed his IIT from IIT Kharagpur(in Chemichal) got into
Citibank as a manager( ).


Quality of IIT is slightly better when compared to other universities. But quality of research papers from IIT's is abysmal and pathetic.No one can contest this truth
Anand Prabhu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 299
Ok...Quite a bit of IIT bashing here. I was not keen on posting here as this is a very subjective topic and one cannot just quantify attributes with respect to qualifications and job experience. After seeing the original post where mention was made of the IIT textile engineers etc, I decided to post my opinion.
I cleared the IIT-JEE in 1990 but was placed around 1900. So the only fields that were available to me were textile, chemical etc that I was not interested in. And so I did my engineering at REC. So I "sort-of" fit this category under fire.
First of all, clearing the IIT-JEE paper is no joke. Anyone who clears the paper has put in tremendous effort and has moved a step up the ladder in class 12 (especially Maths and Physics), but definitely is no Albert Einstein. But it does not mean that the people who did not clear the paper are dumb. Maybe they were not yet ready or had personal difficulties. And the rigidity of the Indian System forces students to have usually 1-2 chances at the paper.
Secondly, clearing the paper is not enlightment. IITians need to continue honing their skills. If not, they too fall behind and other candidates who start maturing can overtake them.
You can talk of these pathetic IIT programmers or you can take a look at the bulk of the IIT alumni. My cousin, who is an IIT graduate and has done a MS and a double PhD in US, is writing complex algorithms for CISCO in Bangalore. My other 2 colleagues also have their PhDs and are doing research in advanced Physics/robotics etc in US. I can go on.
The truth is that IIT has a brand name. But if an IITian stops upgrading his skills, he is no better than anyone else. So, comparing a few failed IITians against successful/bright personnel from other fields is like comparing apples to oranges.
Arun Sharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 24, 2003
Posts: 40
Very well said Anand Prabhu. I agree 100% with you.
aashu garg
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 12
Originally posted by Arun Sharma:


I have seen people graduating that too with a computer engg or computer tech or information tech without actually writing significant lines of codes from these colleges. There many freshers who have not seen unix in their life. The private college students are not made to work hard at all.
Whereas IITians would have written tonnes of lines of code by the time they graduate and have deep understanding of most of the core computer science. Many might have had some publications as well.


Disclaimer: I belong to an REC/NIT.


hi arun
i am totally disagreed what u are saying
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The private college students are not made to work hard at all.
Whereas IITians would have written tonnes of lines of code by the time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont know , how can u say like this .
do u have ever seen the syllabus of enginnering in rajasthan.
and standard of exam papers , and labs in colleges
if u had seen i though u cant say like this .
subho saha
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 57
Lets add some more sticks(just jocking though).
To speak on this topic we have to agree that iitan's have proved themselves once, and hence command respect. But that in no sense a non iitian cannot reach the pinnacle of glory.Yes from my small experience in industry i have seen same iit fresher's from non it branches getting more salary an or an introduction to live projects compared to non iitan's but from it branches.But thats the way life is.
However no need to feel down.At experience level companies judge one's problem handling capability and knowledge rather than iit or non iit stamp. So if one is dedicated, loves learning has apetiate for new knowledge i feel one can beat any body(iitian or non iitian). Bcoz this is a professional world, and the performance will ultmately be the driving forceSo the best way is to move forward and keep learning bcoz thats what count's.
[ December 02, 2005: Message edited by: subho saha ]
Ramesh Choudhary
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 200
Hi aashu,

I read many essays in India "Tech"(I wonder whether they deserve that name) magazines about IITians. Some executives of our companies describing IITians the most creative people in this country, some essays eulogising them for their "proving" their mettle and many HR executives describing them to be superbly creative when compared to people from other
"ordinary" colleges. The thing is that men and women in such positions know nothing about engineering and sprinkle their crappish opinions in our
media. No wonder the general public feels them to be from another planet.

On the other side of coin there are some real HR heads who treat spade as a spade. But they are few and far between.
[ December 09, 2005: Message edited by: Ramesh Choudhary ]
rohit lodha
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 10
exactly i feel same " iitians are over rated "
my one of the friend is in iit ,
he is very egoist , when i asked some question
about programming , he told me we dont study now ,
we will get job easily,
everyone knows we are the most intelligent people.
i simply laugh on this statement,
and i say to my ownself , i know how much u are intelligent
Dead man
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 07, 2005
Posts: 1
You said it man,just by the way you speak."in compare to an iit ian ---an iitian can do anything , every companies wants iitian
even he is from textiles , chemicals.
and he dont know much about it.
i think iitian are overrated " --It doesnt make any logical or grammatical sense.
Well,Iam not an IIT-ian & cracking JEE doesn't necessarily mean one is supersmart.But,IIT-ian's arent succesful only where an IIT label is helpful .It maybe a fact that an IIT label will help one a long way,but that doesnt mean they are Succesful only because of that.


Originally posted by aashu garg:
why this happens
an mca or msc in IT are not getting good wages
in compare to an iit ian ,
both have same knowledge
but an iitian have big stamp of iit
an iitian can do anything , every companies wants iitian
even he is from textiles , chemicals.
and he dont know much about it.

i think iitian are overrated
what other ranchers thinks about this
tell ur views
Sudd Ghosh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 187
In my 15 years of experience in the IT field (7 yrs in India, 8 in US), I did work with some IITians. IMO, they are just brilliant. If they are interested in what they are doing, they can really be very good and creative. However the problem is, most of the ones I have met, are disinterested in IT work. May be because SW development is not enough challenging for their intellect. Some of my very close erstwhile colleagues have become so frustrated that they are vehemently trying to leave the SW field.
I think the bottomline is, one should have the aptitude and interest, importantly perseverence and PASSION to keep ahead in this ever changing field, along with workable intelligence to be successful in this area. SW development (in most companies) does not involve rocket science, so extra intelligence may be a disadvantage in the sense that this can tremendously frustrate an individual.

I remember one of my class mates was within JEE 100, but he was always frustrated because he wanted to be in the media/show-business. That may be an exception, but this is definitely true in India, that after 12th grade, any intelligent kid is FORCED to be either a doctor or an engineer, without any career guidance or anyone actually figuring out the real aptitude and interest of the person. And talking about engineering and the entrance exams, one doesn't get electrical or mech, he goes into chemical. Does anyone ever bothered to gauge a person by his aptitude/passion and not go by just the score? This I think is extremely detrimental for anyone's career. In the past so many years, I haven't seen many Indians who are really passionate about what they are doing. I think some change in the system is needed.

Thanks, Sudd


SCJP 1.4, SCWCD, SCBCD 1.3
rehans oberoi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 174
there are many unqualified genious in this world
other than iit
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

I think it is not only about what you have done in the past...but it is more about what you do in the present and value you bring to the organization as of today. performance speaks for itself....and if you're good, it shows.

The quality of education, tough filtering process and continuous competetive evaluation does give IITans an edge over others, but talent may exist and prosper elsewhere as well.

- Manish
 
It is sorta covered in the JavaRanch Style Guide.
 
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