aspose file tools*
The moose likes Jobs Discussion and the fly likes j2ee certification! Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Spring in Action this week in the Spring forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Careers » Jobs Discussion
Bookmark "j2ee certification!" Watch "j2ee certification!" New topic
Author

j2ee certification!

s jain
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2005
Posts: 102
Hi,
I want to do some certification in advanced technology in j2ee but for that I have to go first for scjp.Is there any other certifications are there?do certification really matters much after having 2yrs experience?
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi s jai !

I want to do some certification in advanced technology in j2ee but for that I have to go first for scjp.Is there any other certifications are there?do certification really matters much after having 2yrs experience?

Logical relevant Sun certifications are in the order : SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD.
Perhaps optionaly consider SCJD after SCJP.

IMHO certifications matter indeed only if you have real experience, since they are supposed to confirm theoricaly your practical experience, hence they are practically useless for freshers since they still have no live business paid experience yet.
But certifications are a simple help about your career, don't rely on them only to find jobs, for only your business paid experience counts and certifications simply emphasize it from employers' point of view.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Kishore Dandu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
I concurr with Eric. I would like to add, certifications will give more confidence in getting things done at work.

After working for about 5 years in J2EE, I got my SCJP recently. It gives additional satisfaction to get a certification in the field you know decently.


Kishore
SCJP, blog
vipul patel
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 16, 2005
Posts: 146
I got mine after 3 yrs of exp.
Theodore Casser
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 1902

I've gotten my certifications on and off through the years, over the course of the last two firms I've worked with.

The benefit that I see is that it demonstrates that you're still trying to learn and keep up with the latest standards. I would hardly depend alone on the certifications to get me a job - employers do tend to weight experience more highly than an examination - but it certainly can help you distinguish yourself from the field.

And to answer the question of whether or not they help when you have more than two years experience - yes, I fully believe they do. (I know that my SCWCD definitely helped with getting my current job.)
[ January 18, 2006: Message edited by: Theodore Casser ]

Theodore Jonathan Casser
SCJP/SCSNI/SCBCD/SCWCD/SCDJWS/SCMAD/SCEA/MCTS/MCPD... and so many more letters than you can shake a stick at!
ankit tuteja
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 7
it do help a lot...

i cleared my scjp certification above 90%
it helped me to crack written test and interview...
and created a gr8 impression to employers...and if you score v. good % in international level certifications of sunh then you can also prove that you have capability to get excellent marks ... even if you academic is not much good like ...till graduation i scored 2nd division maximum .

But in MCA i scored acceptable... but good score in scjp do gives confidence and more important deep knowledge...
so goo for it

good luck
ankit tuteja
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 7
also put the sun java certification logo on ur resume...

what a eye catching resume it becomes...
pranith rao
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 11, 2005
Posts: 12
I think certification helps a lot. First, it improves your command over the technology. Second, it attracts the attention of an employer. I did scjp, scwcd and scbcd. These certifications helped me to land in a job without experience and even without a technical interview


SCJP(90%) SCWCD(87%) SCBCD (95%)
Ketan Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 09, 2005
Posts: 66
HI All

I think Certification is like a proof that you know the syntax of the language.As a result they definitely help in clearing written java tests eg. what is the o/p of this program kind of questions.

In addition when we work in a company on a project, we tend to gain expertise only of stuff relevant to the project.

But to clear certification, we need to know the entire syllabus and not just stuff relevant to the project we are working on.

These are the advantages of SCJP/SCWCD etc

However these certifications cannot substitute experience for sure.

Dont expect to go fo an interview saying that I dont have experience but I have certification.You will certainly not be given preference over the experienced guy even though he is not certified.

But yes, if you are equally experienced as compared to the other person and if there is only 1 position vacant , then your certification will give you the edge.

Some certification books themselves clearly suggest that certification does not prove that you are a good programmer.

For example I know A to Z but I dont know how to frame words and which alphabets to use, then whats the use of knowing just the A B C D ...

Its like that.Certification helps you to know the API's but which API to use when and where is best learnt while working on a real time industry project

Hope that puts forward the idea of certifications in context of job seeking.
Jeff Fisher
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 14, 2002
Posts: 18
This all sounds perfectly backwards to me.

If you're experienced, you don't need a certification to show that you know your stuff - just point to your accomplishments. Answer questions about those accomplishments if people think you might be lying about your experience.

On the other hand, if you're a "fresher" with a certification, then the expectation would be that you're looking for a chance (as opposed to having absolutely NO chance - what if you might have talent? Is it in the industry's best interests to bar you from all opportunities?). It would be expected that you CURRENTLY might not be any good at design or architectural work. It would mean that you could CODE while the more experienced people - who get paid more - do the designs for you and give you the requirements. It would mean that you would offload coding work from the more experienced people, giving them more time to focus on design work.

Win-win.

But the overriding opinion seems to be that this is a terrible idea. Can someone please explain why?
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Jeff Fisher:
This all sounds perfectly backwards to me. If you're experienced, you don't need a certification to show that you know your stuff - just point to your accomplishments. Answer questions about those accomplishments if people think you might be lying about your experience.


I agree. I've never received a Java certification, and I've been working with the language for approximately eight years now.

The best places to work I've found have been the ones that focused very little on my formal credentials and just sat down to talk abut what I've done, the issues I've faced and the approach I am going to take. That's the most effective way of finding the right person, and the best way to spot how valuable a person is going to be.

How many years' worth of oxygen someone has managed to consume, what their degree was in 10 years ago or their score on a certification test doesn't really matter, unless my business is in the oxygen consumption or test taking field.

Cheers!

Luke
Kishore Dandu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Luke Kolin:


How many years' worth of oxygen someone has managed to consume, what their degree was in 10 years ago or their score on a certification test doesn't really matter, unless my business is in the oxygen consumption or test taking field.

Luke


This is what is comparing apples and oranges buddy!!! Pure apples and oranges.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Luke & Jeff & Kishore !
(responding altogether to Luke Kolin & Jeff Fisher & Kishore Dandu)

I agree. I've never received a Java certification, and I've been working with the language for approximately eight years now.
The best places to work I've found have been the ones that focused very little on my formal credentials and just sat down to talk abut what I've done, the issues I've faced and the approach I am going to take. That's the most effective way of finding the right person, and the best way to spot how valuable a person is going to be.


This is out of the scope. You are talking about the few clever companies who afford taking time to evaluate personnaly candidates on their real skills beyond their official degrees, but how many do ? Exactly as the best IT pros never use any job board to find a new job for their personal network is far enough, which must be true for 10% people, this kind of behaviour must be true for 10% of companies looking for staff. When hundreds of resumes have to be screened for one position, how many companies afford taking so much time with each person ?

The overwhelming bunch of companies willing to hire will use resume screening so as to get rid of an excessive number of candidates and will retain a few for smarter consideration, but so as to pass the preliminary screening such assets as certification are no negligible option at all, certifications may even be mandatory for the job as a pure official commercial guarantee.

As you implicitly stated yourself "The best places to work I've found" and "That's the most effective way of finding the right person, and the best way to spot how valuable a person is going to be", only a small number of companies can afford the luxury to spend so much time for each candidate for even if it is the best and smartest approach it is much too far time consuming. The best companies who offer the best places could behave so, but they are few, and even so as to gain time they will certainly use screening to filter an excessive number of candidates. This is exactly what happened to me for my present job, I was interviewed smartly first then attended an unexpected SCJP session with half the normal time, finishing second out of about fifty by scoring 24 points. Having no experience in attending certifications would have made me fail and miss this very interesting job. What is more all seasoned interviewed IT pros with real skills performed well at this unexpected SCJP test while one so said Java expert wo performed very well on interview failed test with miserable score. This is enough IMHO to considerate certification tests as a good and sensible screening method to quickly sort candidates while a thourough interview will perform remaining finely grained evaluation, so certifications value cannot be ignored that much.

How many years' worth of oxygen someone has managed to consume, what their degree was in 10 years ago or their score on a certification test doesn't really matter, unless my business is in the oxygen consumption or test taking field.

As Kishore Dandu stated this is comparing apples and oranges, saying at the extreme certifications are pure time waste for only your real skills count is as aberrant as stating that school degrees don't count either for the same reason. Of course some very scarce companies may rely on your pure real skills, completely ignoring both your degrees and certifications. But if you hold neither BS nor MS you will be wiped out by screening of 90% of all available jobs because BS/MS holders are so numerous, and not holding the most basic SCJP will deny you about one third of all Java jobs still through screening because so many other people have it.

This is to me IMHO the same false statement that "certifications will guarantee you finding a job" but at the opposite "certifications won't help you getting any job".

But your statement leads me to approve you indirectly on another point : editor certifications (Sun, Cisco, ...) are focused on pure often theorical knowledge of their products, which is obviously normal, but there lacks a "practical" form of certifications which would focus on the practical side, kind of small project to make in limited time for example.

Certifications IMHO have 2 purposes : as an individual for checking your knowledge and understanding of one editor product, and may help about finding a new job through preliminary screening if mandatory and moving your resume somewhere up the stack. Attempting to use them for other purposes is an error.

Best regards.
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi Luke & Jeff & Kishore !
This is out of the scope. You are talking about the few clever companies who afford taking time to evaluate personnaly candidates on their real skills beyond their official degrees, but how many do?


Mediocrity is common among companies, and everyone needs to screen resumes based on some arbitrary criteria; there's simply too much out there to do individually. I do agree with you on this. However, good places screen on as little as possible (usually, just a basic experience number) to get things to a manageable number and then start reviewing resumes.

When we were looking for an intermediate developer, we got about 10-15 resumes that as a team we looked over for a whopping 30 minutes. We didn't like what we saw, so we got another dozen. From that we created a shortlist of 3 that got interviews.

Exactly as the best IT pros never use any job board to find a new job for their personal network is far enough, which must be true for 10% people, this kind of behaviour must be true for 10% of companies looking for staff.


I don't see how the first implies the second, even if the figures were accurate.

but so as to pass the preliminary screening such assets as certification are no negligible option at all, certifications may even be mandatory for the job as a pure official commercial guarantee.


Sure, foolish companies will do this, not recognizing that certification is a gurantee of nothing more than the applicant passed the test. It makes no statements whatsoever about real-world qualifications. The best guarantee of that is experience - how long, with what companies, and on what projects? That's going to be a great indicator.

As Jeff Fisher pointed out, the more experience you have, the less certification counts for. One would hope that one's experience and ability to describe it would paint a more compelling picture for an employer than a Sun certification. If you've been in the industry for a number of years and cannot say this, the problem is not with the employer. If you're new, then by all means a certification can't hurt. Even a pair of threes is of some value in a poker hand if it's all you have.

Of course some very scarce companies may rely on your pure real skills, completely ignoring both your degrees and certifications. But if you hold neither BS nor MS you will be wiped out by screening of 90% of all available jobs because BS/MS holders are so numerous, and not holding the most basic SCJP will deny you about one third of all Java jobs still through screening because so many other people have it.


Would it surprise you to hear that I have neither a BS nor an MS? (I do have a degree, just not in a technical discipline.) Seriously, I'm not interested in qualifying for three-thirds of Java jobs, or even one-third. I'm just interested in one - so if I'm automatically rejected because my degree ten years ago wasn't in a specific discipline or I don't have an SJCD, I really don't care. Those employers can happily pass me over.

I had a screening interview with a contract agency a few months ago where the headhunter focused extensively on wether I had done "design" or "development". I kept saying both, and ultimately told them that if you keep treating the two as seperate entities you won't have a successful project. They don't call me anymore, and I don't call them.

This is to me IMHO the same false statement that "certifications will guarantee you finding a job" but at the opposite "certifications won't help you getting any job".


So no one's confused, once you get a fair bit of experience, I think certifications are of zero value finding a job. There may be the odd employer that will insist, but trust me, you do NOT want to work for a "tick the box" employer if you are experienced and aren't desperate for a job. If you are, then by all means take the tests.

If you don't have the experience, then every little thing you can do to help you in the process is probably a good thing.

Cheers!

Luke
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: j2ee certification!