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Paying 20,000$ if i leave job in 1 year.

ravishankar dube
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 5
hi,
i am going to u.s on h1b, through a consultant,
the consultants want me to sign a documents which states, that
i have to be with them for 12 months otherwise i have to give him 20,000$
Also if i leave after 6 months..i have to give 10,000$ and pro-rata.
Also some non-competence agreement,
i understand that most companies sign such agreement, but i want to know that
can my company ask me 10,000$ if i leave after 6 months.

I want to know ..is the legal.?
if i go to court that my recruitment happend on phone. and no expenses have been incurred by the company..
can i win the case...?
is it legal..or they are just doing this..so that employees get frightened of court procedures and dont resign..

please help me..
alfred jones
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 279
FIRST of all, you should take care how much you are earning from that assignment.....if you earn heavily then you could sign it otherwise dont fall in this trap.

you shaould have the capability to pay back.....see, there might be some situations when you might want to really leave the job and in that case you should have the capability to pay back.....but it seems to me they are charging heavy....will you be able to earn 3/4 times than the amount they are asking in 1 year ?

try to gather information whether the consultant is a trusted or not....do they have got any bad remarks from other employess.
[ June 29, 2006: Message edited by: alfred jones ]
ravishankar dube
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 5
hi,,
thanks alfred for reply,
my pay is 50k$ per year,

and i know its not good enough..and one can get more than that..but
but i dont want this thread to be one amongh those which damn the h1b and related issues,

i want to know..can they make me sign a bond telling i have to pay them 20,000 $ if i leave job before 6 months of joining the company,
and if i leave after 6 months i have to pay 10,000$ ...

can they legal win the opposition done by me..
???
all others who have faced this on h1b
pleae help me,
alfred jones
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 279
can you please copy the exact statements mentioned in the bond ?

its very difficult to comment unless we see the wordings.

post it here...we will try.
Anand Prabhu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 299
You seem to be signing yourself into trouble. I don't think it's worth it. The bond money is too high and with the non-compete, it looks more like slavery. I mean, why should you sign a non-compete? The main reason for the non-compete clause is to make sure a critical employee does not jump over to a competitor taking the critical knowledge base gained in the company with the possibility of the company losing competitive edge. Like, say, the algorithmist from Microsoft who joined Google. What cutting-edge training or knowledge is this company providing you that it feels that their business gets threatened by a competitior if you leave? Obviously, they have inserted the clause to ensnare you and I don't think it is good ethics. With respect to the bond money, though you may be legally on the correct side, they still can harass you as they have a company lawyer who would have framed the letter and who knows the loopholes. For ex: when one of my friends skipped the bond money and took an offer from a company in Atlanta, his company here in Detroit went to court and he was issued summons. He had to fly here on a weekday with all the tension. But the company lawyer did not turn up thus leading to adjournment. How many such trips will you make on your own money? And remember the lawyer fees? They also cost you a fortune. The companies bank on this to harass you. So take extreme caution before you sign anything. It's not worth going through these headaches and waste your time and money.
NJ Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 82
Sign with no fear .
As you are signing in India .
Most important Write place amd date also once signed .
1. In India such papers contracts have no validity until unless signed on proper stamp paper or fee and notorised .
2. This paper you can use as toilet paper in US ,as it has no validity here , it is signed out of US jurisdiction ,it is governed by local law .
3.Most probably your employeer going to ask sign again once you reach here copy of same paper ,saying that you have already singed it just sign another copy .
Now it is up to you as if you have really plan to jump , then you can say no .He cannot force you to sign .
Secondly if you signs and he fails to pay you salary from first month you reaches here , then contract is voided ,as already voided contract and labor laws by not paying you salary and imposing a contract that stops you from looking another job .

At maximum , he can threat you , taking advantage of your ignorance .

Best of Luck
[ June 29, 2006: Message edited by: NJ Joshi ]
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
Very bad advise from Joshi!

A contract ALWAYS states under which jurisdiction it's signed and what court will decide on issues resulting from it.

It doesn't matter one iota whether you're in India and signing a contract with a US company.
That contract will be active under US law, therefore it will be valid when executed if legal under US law.


42
NJ Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 82
You can check with some lawyer ,cross country contracts if seriously executed needs Consuler varifiation of that country .i,.e US consulate in India .

You can not go any where in world and ask people to sign a paper becuase it is legal in US .In India signing such paper is has no value ,their is other procedure for it .

US law can be enforced only when person is physically in US ,otherwise India has its own rules .

Thats why in my third point I wrote "They can ask you to sign again in US same copy" .to make it valid .

More over what a US firm can do if he leaves his job and returned back to India ??? nothing ... Its just piece of paper in India .



Originally posted by Jeroen T Wenting:
Very bad advise from Joshi!

A contract ALWAYS states under which jurisdiction it's signed and what court will decide on issues resulting from it.

It doesn't matter one iota whether you're in India and signing a contract with a US company.
That contract will be active under US law, therefore it will be valid when executed if legal under US law.


[ June 29, 2006: Message edited by: NJ Joshi ]

[ June 29, 2006: Message edited by: NJ Joshi ]
[ June 29, 2006: Message edited by: NJ Joshi ]
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi ravishankar !

i am going to u.s on h1b, through a consultant,
the consultants want me to sign a documents which states, that
i have to be with them for 12 months otherwise i have to give him 20,000$
Also if i leave after 6 months..i have to give 10,000$ and pro-rata.


It is certainly very legal... as sure as it is certainly very unfair.

I would say don't sign, such an obviously unfair offer at very moderate US salary for the skills involved (50 K$) is clearly a very bad bodyshopper offer. Don't go for it, rather stay in India for a much better wages for cost of living ratio since India is the hottest booming IT country to be in right now.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
It is certainly very legal... as sure as it is certainly very unfair.


Unless he's getting something in return for making that concession (beyond the job itself), it's almost certainly unenforceable.

Cheers!

Luke
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
Not really. Severance clauses can be enforced. You signed it, you're bound by it unless it's illegal.
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Jeroen T Wenting:
You signed it, you're bound by it unless it's illegal.


If you look at the law, you will discover that such a clause is unenforceable and illegal unless the signatory received something in return for signing it (beyond the job). This is why most non-competes and bonds are unenforceable in the US.

Cheers!

Luke
M Movilogo
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 17, 2006
Posts: 63
One sided contracts are always invalid - under any countrie's jurisdiction!!!

It says if employee leaves job he has to pay $20,000 but doens't say if employer forces him to leave he would be given some severance pay.

So, it is open to exploitation by the employer.
Thus it is illegal.
reubin haz
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 12, 2005
Posts: 287
Originally posted by ravishankar dube:
hi,
i am going to u.s on h1b, through a consultant,
the consultants want me to sign a documents which states, that
i have to be with them for 12 months otherwise i have to give him 20,000$
Also if i leave after 6 months..i have to give 10,000$ and pro-rata.
Also some non-competence agreement


hi ravishankar, is your company named Marlabs? If its not, could you tell us which company it is?


SCJA, SCJP5.0, SCBCD, SCWCD
Bo Yyempeti
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 111
Originally posted by NJ Joshi:
Sign with no fear .
As you are signing in India .
Most important Write place amd date also once signed .
1. In India such papers contracts have no validity until unless signed on proper stamp paper or fee and notorised .
2. This paper you can use as toilet paper in US ,as it has no validity here , it is signed out of US jurisdiction ,it is governed by local law .


That is what you get when you ask for a legal opinion in a Java forum.

Mr. Joshi how certain are you of the advise that you profess ? Someone's career depends on it!

The location where a contract is signed has no bearing on the jurisdiction. The jurisdiction is usually specified as part of the contract.

As for your contention about notarization of contracts, you are just plain wrong. Did you know that even a verbal contract is valid and enforceable in the Indian Contract Act ?

Part of the contract is probably (and I emphasise PROBABLY) un-enforceable because it may violates various 'Agreement under Consideration' clauses. (Section 25 of the Indian Contract Act, 1872 if contract is under Indian jurisdiction)

My suggestion - if at all possible, don't sign the contract!
M Movilogo
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 17, 2006
Posts: 63
How many examples anyone knows when an employeed left job in USA based on a contract signed in India has been prosecuted and paid the penalty?
NJ Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 82
I am not wrong and I am firm on my suggestion it is based on my experience in US from last 7-8 years .If even iota of this contract has some weightage Not a Single person on H1 B able to change his employeer .

Regarding Indian law lets not talk , You know what you can do in India .

Other members who has given advice on this forum against validity of contract are 100% correct ,one sided contracts are illegal in US .
What if his employeer doesn't pay him salary and he leaves job ?
what if he leaves US ?

And for your kind information what he is signing is not some thing new every next person landed in last few years signs such paper and leaves job before cotract ending .Other then non competent agreement , nothing can be enforced .

Hope this will help you to enhance your knowledge .

Originally posted by Bhoooooo Yyempeti:


That is what you get when you ask for a legal opinion in a Java forum.

Mr. Joshi how certain are you of the advise that you profess ? Someone's career depends on it!

The location where a contract is signed has no bearing on the jurisdiction. The jurisdiction is usually specified as part of the contract.

As for your contention about notarization of contracts, you are just plain wrong. Did you know that even a verbal contract is valid and enforceable in the Indian Contract Act ?

Part of the contract is probably (and I emphasise PROBABLY) un-enforceable because it may violates various 'Agreement under Consideration' clauses. (Section 25 of the Indian Contract Act, 1872 if contract is under Indian jurisdiction)

My suggestion - if at all possible, don't sign the contract!

[ June 30, 2006: Message edited by: NJ Joshi ]
Sumit Chopra
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2006
Posts: 176
Originally posted by NJ Joshi:
what if he leaves US ?

[ June 30, 2006: Message edited by: NJ Joshi ][/QB]


If the person breaks contract, leaves US, joins some other country for work India, UAE, Pakistan, England ... what happes to the contract/law then?
ravishankar dube
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 5
The agreement say the
Employee will pay 25k$ if after leaving company i work for their clients or clients of client.

the other clause tells that..
company makes lots of expense in hiring employee and bcos of that if employee leaves before 1 year he has to pay 20k$

All other clasuss are as usual..

now i m concerned about this thing too..
suppose if i leave the company after 6 months..and also pay the company 10k$ but can i work in client of clients of the company..
if i understand this clause properly then i can not work for the entire u.s it industry ..bcos big companies have many clients and their clients...and virtually blcoking all companies...
Sachin Modi
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 14
Ravishankar,

I think Joshi is right.
Almost everybody comes here signs some kind of bond and leaves company before the end of year.
Most of Indian companies may be not able to go to court as they may need to produce all the correct document for the tax etc, which many times not possible for them.

Moreover, even the rule is correct everything is fine, you are not going to leave the job in the six months. Atleast you should get some experience show some stability in your CV and then leave. So one year is not a big thing.
Anand Prabhu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 299
Originally posted by ravishankar dube:


The agreement say the
Employee will pay 25k$ if after leaving company i work for their clients or clients of client.

From the employer's point of view, this makes sense. They obviously are trying to protect themselves from their employees being snatched by clients. But "clients of client"? How do you interpret this and how long is this chain? This statement would lead me to infer that it is mostly a bodyshop who could contract you to another firm which in turn could do the same till you reach the client. You may have multiple layers between your company and the client. And I am pretty sure that once you start working, you will see your peers earning 10-40% more than you(since they may not have these layers). Then you could get frustrated and try to jump. And this is where this clause could bite you.


the other clause tells that..
company makes lots of expense in hiring employee and bcos of that if employee leaves before 1 year he has to pay 20k$

Each and every company has hiring expenses. If their business model is to hire from abroad, then they would have to build it into their cost structure and not harass prospective employees. Unless, as myself and others say, they would have given you something so valuable that your net value raises after you work for them. $20K within a year penalty for this violation is outrageously high. Visa, plane ticket, initial motel expenses usually will not exceed $6K. They will recover that in 2-3 months.


suppose if i leave the company after 6 months..and also pay the company 10k$ but can i work in client of clients of the company..

This could be much more complicated than you think. All the companies and the clients have a business relationship that they would not like disturbed. So, it will be entirely upto the companies and the clients involved who could decide your case.
Anand Prabhu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 299
Originally posted by M Movilogo:
How many examples anyone knows when an employeed left job in USA based on a contract signed in India has been prosecuted and paid the penalty?


I know one consultant friend who used to work in my firm 3 years ago who was in this boat. He was one of the unlucky ones. Though quite a few people left that company, he was pursued by his company. He left his company in Detroit for another position at Atlanta. The company issued summons through a court and I accompanied him to the court. The lawyer never turned up thus leading to adjournment. The court fixed another hearing date. But my friend simply could not bear these inconveniences and reached an out-of-court settlement. I also accompanied him to an attorney who was non-commital about the legality of the bond. But the attorney stated that it was possible for the company to prosecute the employee if it had the resources, the time and the inclination.
NJ Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 82
I know couple cases but those are different then just changing companies ,In those cases Employeee joined company's direct clients.



Originally posted by M Movilogo:
How many examples anyone knows when an employeed left job in USA based on a contract signed in India has been prosecuted and paid the penalty?

[ June 30, 2006: Message edited by: NJ Joshi ]
NJ Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 82
Originally posted by Sumit Chopra:


If the person breaks contract, leaves US, joins some other country for work India, UAE, Pakistan, England ... what happes to the contract/law then?


Nothing still you can use that paper as toilet tissue ...

One more thing such contracts are normally asked by all Bodyshopping companies or desi firms ,to keep a hold on employee in case if they failed to get him project /client .Just take it into consideration if Dube don't get paid for 3 months ,what he can do ? he can not change job because of contract ?
No Court of Law is going to entertain this , this is bonded labor .
Untill unless contract is not single sided , i.e it should say conditions from both side what if company terminates him he will get compenastion ?
Also why they are asking 20,000 only ,not 50000 or 4000 ???/
No body gives money like this company has to show expenses ,more over once contract voided its voided .
Like if company failed to give you salary from Day 1 in US (u started working ) ,then contract is voided .And once voided it cant be enforced on other party .

I am posting all things because i saw lot of youngsters just confused and get into traps .
Bottom line is dont give your any original document to your employeer any thing marksheet passport I-94 or I 797 .
Or avoid joining direct client without consent.

Rest is all fre world
[ June 30, 2006: Message edited by: NJ Joshi ]
alfred jones
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 279
In fact, honestly i strongly dislike bond kind of thingies.....it just reminds me slavery,old days..........damn!

I want freedommmmmmm........
Sachin Modi
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 14
I do in same boat. My employer said that you don't need to sign any bond and I accepted the offer. Once I land here and I got the project he forced me to sign the bond for 18 months. Since I was not aware I just signed the bond.
ravishankar dube
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 5
Thank you all,
i now know that.
i can use it like a tissue paper,
But i need totake care that idont join direct client,
andfor leaving job i need to get job in the same city so that i can run down to court if any problems

Thanks everybody for the reply,
 
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subject: Paying 20,000$ if i leave job in 1 year.