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According to Programmers Guild, foreign workers wages in US is a "sham"

Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi all !

In particular :
"In Silicon Valley only 16 per cent of H-1B workers are earning at least what an average American programmer earns, and this ratio holds across the US".

Lobby group exageration, or simple well known fact ? :
The sham that all Indians adore: H-1B visa

What is more, is "asianage.com" a reliable info source, for I never heard about it before ?

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:

What is more, is "asianage.com" a reliable info source, for I never heard about it before ?
Best regards.

I don't know about its reliability but mainly it used to import the news with flashy pictures of Hollywood actresses once upon a time.Asian Age owner and editor is quite inflential person in India's power circle.


Namma Suvarna Karnataka
Jignesh Patel
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 03, 2001
Posts: 626

Whose photo is this?
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
They may exagerate, but it is indeed common knowledge that the requirement that H1 holders earn "similar" wages to locals is completely ignored by almost everyone involved in one way or another (from false paperwork to people being forced to pay their employee most of their salary for "services" so that on paper they earn the same but in reality they get only a fraction).


42
Jay Shin
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: 169
In addition to earning 30% less salary, another big problem is that those H-1B aliens are usually not covered by health insurance. This is especially true if the alien is working as a contractor through a body shopper.

My organization hired several temporay alien contractors (from India and Mexico) for low-level programming jobs, and he wouldn't go to the hospital even though he's very sick.
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Jay Shin:
In addition to earning 30% less salary, another big problem is that those H-1B aliens are usually not covered by health insurance. This is especially true if the alien is working as a contractor through a body shopper.


First off, there's no obligation to have employer-provided health insurance. I am very glad for the fact that I do not have it, and purchase my own tailored to my own needs, just like my housing, food and transportation.

Second, why are you bringing up H-1B aliens from Third World countries, when there are tens of thousands of H-1B and other non-immigrant aliens from First World countries who insist on excellent benefits and pay?

Cheers!

Luke
Anand Prabhu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 299
Originally posted by Jignesh Patel:
Whose photo is this?


Looks like M J Akbar.
Vijay Dinanath Chauhan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 34
Second, why are you bringing up H-1B aliens from Third World countries, when there are tens of thousands of H-1B and other non-immigrant aliens from First World countries who insist on excellent benefits and pay?


What exactly you mean by bringing H1B from first world nations. Doesn't it prove that you are biased ( or racist to certain extent ..)

Everybody in the world should get equal opportunity irrespective of ethicity,region or anything else. Only criteria should be "whether you are good for the Job ?" . Period.

Moreover, if few body shoppers are doing something which is illegal you can not generalize to the whole population..
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Mallika Dhupia:
What exactly you mean by bringing H1B from first world nations. Doesn't it prove that you are biased ( or racist to certain extent ..)


Please don't play that sorry card. I'm just pointing out that a person from a Third World country would be more willing to accept a "poor" US living standard because it still represents an absolute increase in his or her standard of living, whereas someone from a nation such as Canada or Germany probably would not, since it would be a step down.

Moreover, if few body shoppers are doing something which is illegal you can not generalize to the whole population..


And that's exactly what I have done in this forum for several years, defending non-immigrant visa problems. If you stopped to think and read my posts before throwing a "racist!" tantrum you would know that.

Luke
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
Originally posted by Mallika Dhupia:


What exactly you mean by bringing H1B from first world nations. Doesn't it prove that you are biased ( or racist to certain extent ..)

Everybody in the world should get equal opportunity irrespective of ethicity,region or anything else. Only criteria should be "whether you are good for the Job ?" . Period.

Moreover, if few body shoppers are doing something which is illegal you can not generalize to the whole population..


It's a fact that people from say Europe are at the moment incapable of getting an H1 because they won't work for a pittance.
They also won't let themselves get tricked into signing strangulation contracts with Indian bodyshops on the promise of a career in the US.

It is NOT a "few" bodyshoppers who are breaking the law (with the full knowledge of US immigration services), it's almost all of them.
If that wasn't the case 99 out of 100 applications currently made for Indian (and other, but mainly Indian) kids with a diploma on which the ink isn't yet dry would never be made or approved if made.
Not only is the compensation they're getting once in the US a far cry from being competitive with what natives get, there is no shortage of US people wanting to work those jobs (if they were only compensated fairly).
Vijay Dinanath Chauhan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 34
I understand that H1 is currently being mis-used ( and it's unfortunate ). But at the same time , what about the people who come on H1 from India with sufficient years of exp behind them . Are we going to tighten the law , pick up bad apples OR put a blanket ban on all the H1 from developing nations ( I use this word instead of third world ).

Sorry for using the "R" word , I was carried away!

-

9*6 = 54 ( unless you are counting in base 13 )
Jack Haley
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Posts: 17
First off, there's no obligation to have employer-provided health insurance. I am very glad for the fact that I do not have it, and purchase my own tailored to my own needs, just like my housing, food and transportation.

Second, why are you bringing up H-1B aliens from Third World countries, when there are tens of thousands of H-1B and other non-immigrant aliens from First World countries who insist on excellent benefits and pay?
I'll go one step furether than you Luke, I think we should outlaw employer provided health insurance.

He's is bringing up H1-Bs because adding to the supply of workers in a given market drives down wages for everyone working in that line of work. Perhaps you like the domino theory, what happens to the underpaid foreign national on H1-B happens to more people tomorrow.
[ July 17, 2006: Message edited by: Jack Haley ]

With patience and sacrifice great foes may be vanquished ... Hassan Nasrallah
Jack Haley
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Posts: 17
First off, there's no obligation to have employer-provided health insurance. I am very glad for the fact that I do not have it, and purchase my own tailored to my own needs, just like my housing, food and transportation.

Second, why are you bringing up H-1B aliens from Third World countries, when there are tens of thousands of H-1B and other non-immigrant aliens from First World countries who insist on excellent benefits and pay?
I'm with you Luke, I think we should outlaw employer provided health insurance.

He's is bringing up H1-Bs because adding to the supply of workers in a given market drives down wages for everyone working in that line of work. Perhaps you like the domino theory, what happens to the underpaid foreign national on H1-B today, happens to more people tomorrow.

[b] Lobby group exageration, or simple well known fact ? : [b/]

Non-immigrants wanting to be immigrants tell a brighter picture of the life of foreign nationals at http://immigrationvoice.org. If your looking for a differences in opinions, they are easy to come by.
[ July 17, 2006: Message edited by: Jack Haley ]
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
I think that if the author of this article wanted us to take the article seriously, he should have included the median experience of an H1-B programmer vs the median experience of an American programmer. Comparing salalry levels without taking into account experience levels is an apple-to-oranges comparison
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
If H1 were not abused all H1 applicants would be from the very high end of the market.
As they're mostly from the very low end, where there's a large pool of resources available (in no small part people who lost their job to previous offshoring and H1 applicants), he has shown conclusively that the system is being massively abused.
Jay Shin
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: 169
If H1 were not abused all H1 applicants would be from the very high end of the market.
As they're mostly from the very low end.



Personally, I am still yet to see any H-1B non-immigrant programmers from the Western Europe.

Out of all those H-1B aliens I've personally seen, over 70%-80% are from India (or Pakistan - I can't distinguish them) and the rest are from the Eastern Europe such as Ukraine.
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Jay Shin:
Personally, I am still yet to see any H-1B non-immigrant programmers from the Western Europe. Out of all those H-1B aliens I've personally seen, over 70%-80% are from India (or Pakistan - I can't distinguish them) and the rest are from the Eastern Europe such as Ukraine.


According to INS in FY2002 (the latest year I could easily find numbers) there were 582,000 temporary worker entrances (and 140,000 dependents) recorded, of which 157,000 (29,000 dependents) were from Europe. While this does include former Soviet republics, they are around 10-15% of that total.

This 157,000 number should have another 73,500 NAFTA workers (15,000 dependents) added to it, and there are another 164,000 H workers from Canada and Mexico (the Mexican number of 94,800, however, is primary H-2 workers not professionals).

Admittedly, the data is getting quite old and I'd love to see newer, but there remain a lot of Europen and Canadian non-immigrant workers. If you discount the 94,000 Mexicans and throw in the NAFA and L workers, they probably still contitute a majority.

Cheers!

Luke
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Jayesh !

I think that if the author of this article wanted us to take the article seriously, he should have included the median experience of an H1-B programmer vs the median experience of an American programmer. Comparing salalry levels without taking into account experience levels is an apple-to-oranges comparison

In theory yes, you are right. In practice you simply cannot be : your "median experience" criteria would be completely relevant if it meant "median real skills", but as there is simply no way yet to evaluate skills on an international level (same exams for all countries) such thing is simply not applicable. What is more years of experience don't mean anything either for such evaluation since as some brilliant IT individuals are 10 times more efficient than some of their worse counterparts at same level, even a 1 year experience junior developper may be much better than a lame 10 years experience seasoned one (I don't think to anyone in particular or intend to offend anybody, everyone knows that programming efficiency may differ dramatically between individuals). So as long as international metrics don't exist to evaluate all IT pros on the same level, this argument is simply not relevant.

Best regards.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Jay !

Personally, I am still yet to see any H-1B non-immigrant programmers from the Western Europe.

And you are likely not to see any, H1B labour visas are literally not any longer available for them in practice. On the very scarce occasions (about once a year) I foresaw the possibility as a french of a labour visa, answer was always the same : J1 or L1, H1B completely impossible to deal with.

Out of all those H-1B aliens I've personally seen, over 70%-80% are from India (or Pakistan - I can't distinguish them) and the rest are from the Eastern Europe such as Ukraine.

Honestly, this is completely similar to the unofficial figures I constantly hear since about 4 years : 80% asians (mainly indians) and most remaining from former eastern european countries. While labour visas were common for western europe citizens some years ago, germans for example, nowadays asians and eastern europeans literally take it all when labour visas matter.

Honestly for western europeans, it is probably time to drop the now unfeasible idea to sail for USA and consider instead the officially 2nd richest country in world per inhabitant just after USA but before Japan : Ireland. Twice the economic growth of USA (since 10 years), much better and cheaper social security, excellent wages for skilled people (currently around U.S.$ 50-60 K), and no visa issue.

Best regards.
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:


In theory yes, you are right. In practice you simply cannot be : your "median experience" criteria would be completely relevant if it meant "median real skills", but as there is simply no way yet to evaluate skills on an international level (same exams for all countries) such thing is simply not applicable. What is more years of experience don't mean anything either for such evaluation since as some brilliant IT individuals are 10 times more efficient than some of their worse counterparts at same level, even a 1 year experience junior developper may be much better than a lame 10 years experience seasoned one (I don't think to anyone in particular or intend to offend anybody, everyone knows that programming efficiency may differ dramatically between individuals).

I agree that a brilliant 1 year experienced developer should earn more than a mediocore 10 year experienced developer. However, when we are talking about such a large sample, I would expect that there would be brilliant developers on both sides of the equation, which would balance the statistics out. Besides, brilliant people are the exception, and we are talking about "medians" here, which roughly translates to "what most people make".


So as long as international metrics don't exist to evaluate all IT pros on the same level, this argument is simply not relevant.



No, what that means is that any comparison between the 2 groups is meaningless. If you are comparing salary levels of group A vs B, you have to make sure that the average skill/experience levels of group A and B are the same, otherwise the comparison is meaningless. I might as well "prove" that H1-B workers earn more than American workers because the median salary for an H1-B worker is say, 60K, and the median salary of an American workers is 45K. I know the comparison is meaningless because I am comparing the skill set of H1-B workers is much differrent than the skill set of American workers. To do a proper comparison, I have to make sure that both groups have the same skill set and experience.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Jeroen !

It's a fact that people from say Europe are at the moment incapable of getting an H1 because they won't work for a pittance.

I wouldn't have completely agreed this one, but as you clearly state "at the moment" I have to agree, IT wages in western europe (around euros 40-50 K) are now clearly comparable to standard alien H1B wages (around U.S.$ 50 K), but with certainly much better social standards (3/5 paid vacation weeks, good paid health security, about 40 work hours a week). So it is clear that at the moment no western European would swap its place for a standard US H1B position right now as we know them.
What is more even if they wanted to present US labour visa policy would make it impossible. While some scarce J1 or L1 are still feasible, H1B is simply impossible now for them, confirmed to me by legal department of a french company in US.

It is NOT a "few" bodyshoppers who are breaking the law (with the full knowledge of US immigration services), it's almost all of them.

Why would they bother follow the rules anyway ? In 2003 or 2004 only 4 (not 4 hundreds or thousands, really 4, less than the fingers on a single hand) companies were convinced of breaking immigration laws, and these last 5 years 1 (one single) IT company was condemned for acting as a bodyshop but with a fine certainly much inferior to what it has gained on the back of its exploited workers.
Simply face it, even if some spectacular crack downs on illegal immigration are made this year because of midterm elections, immigration laws are simply not enforced at all in US, period. If they were there wouldn't be some 12 millions of working illegal immigrants on US soil. So with so tiny chances to be sued for breaking immigration laws, why bother ?

If that wasn't the case 99 out of 100 applications currently made for Indian (and other, but mainly Indian) kids with a diploma on which the ink isn't yet dry would never be made or approved if made.

It looks very true to me that the overwhelming majority of H1B attendants have 3 years of paid experience, which completely denies the "H1B for best and brigthest" argument, which sould rather apply to veterans with some 10 years of paid experience. So here only the "best skills for price ratio" criteria may logically apply, not the "best skills" criteria at all.

Not only is the compensation they're getting once in the US a far cry from being competitive with what natives get, there is no shortage of US people wanting to work those jobs (if they were only compensated fairly).

Yes and no, for on the other hand many so said IT pros natives have not at all the skills level they claim, which makes either outsourcing or alien labour mandatory if need must be swiftly fullfilled.
However I completely agree anyway that almost no effort is made by companies to allow skills upgrade through training, which make above argument much too easy. If a fair upgrade skills training was led in US for native IT pros (especially seniors), need for alien labour or outsourcing would drop much, probably by a half. The fact no such thing is foreseen is foul anyway to US natives.

Best regards.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Jayesh !

No, what that means is that any comparison between the 2 groups is meaningless. If you are comparing salary levels of group A vs B, you have to make sure that the average skill/experience levels of group A and B are the same, otherwise the comparison is meaningless. I might as well "prove" that H1-B workers earn more than American workers because the median salary for an H1-B worker is say, 60K, and the median salary of an American workers is 45K. I know the comparison is meaningless because I am comparing the skill set of H1-B workers is much differrent than the skill set of American workers. To do a proper comparison, I have to make sure that both groups have the same skill set and experience.

You are completely right, and I agree technically with you, but this is drifting away from the implicit debate.

There are brilliant people everywhere, you guess I didn't attend to offend anyone, so I state clearly what the article strongly suggests without naming it explicitely : according to this article H1B is presently abused to "import" cheaper workers from abroad so as to lower local wages.
Of course when you hear "cheap workers" you take it bad as an byword for "inferior" workers, which would be infamous for peoples' dignity, but this is not the point : the point is (still a debate to be argumented, again I don't want to offend anyone) these people are from cheap countries, and considering the lower expected local US wages offered to them tey are certainly chosen as the best for these fixed wages, simple old best price for performance for ratio. So these people are good, the best available for these wages inferior to the prevailing wages they deserve but still superior to what they earn at home.

This system, if true and this is the debate indeed, is vicious and harmful to everyone :
_ US immigration law is baffled, which is bad anyway.
_ alien H1B should be paid at prevailing wages but are not so are stolen a part of their rigtful wages.
_ bodyshoppers make huge gains by exploiting people and baffling the law.
_ native US citizens see their own wages decrease because of a foul system which doesn't any longer follow the rules.

Again this is the core of the debate, is H1B abused or not, don't take it as an offense for anyone, it is not at all the purpose to offend anyone.

Best regards.
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi Jayesh !

No, what that means is that any comparison between the 2 groups is meaningless. If you are comparing salary levels of group A vs B, you have to make sure that the average skill/experience levels of group A and B are the same, otherwise the comparison is meaningless. I might as well "prove" that H1-B workers earn more than American workers because the median salary for an H1-B worker is say, 60K, and the median salary of an American workers is 45K. I know the comparison is meaningless because I am comparing the skill set of H1-B workers is much differrent than the skill set of American workers. To do a proper comparison, I have to make sure that both groups have the same skill set and experience.

You are completely right, and I agree technically with you, but this is drifting away from the implicit debate.

There are brilliant people everywhere, you guess I didn't attend to offend anyone, so I state clearly what the article strongly suggests without naming it explicitely : according to this article H1B is presently abused to "import" cheaper workers from abroad so as to lower local wages.
Of course when you hear "cheap workers" you take it bad as an byword for "inferior" workers, which would be infamous for peoples' dignity, but this is not the point : the point is (still a debate to be argumented, again I don't want to offend anyone) these people are from cheap countries, and considering the lower expected local US wages offered to them tey are certainly chosen as the best for these fixed wages, simple old best price for performance for ratio. So these people are good, the best available for these wages inferior to the prevailing wages they deserve but still superior to what they earn at home.

This system, if true and this is the debate indeed, is vicious and harmful to everyone :
_ US immigration law is baffled, which is bad anyway.
_ alien H1B should be paid at prevailing wages but are not so are stolen a part of their rigtful wages.
_ bodyshoppers make huge gains by exploiting people and baffling the law.
_ native US citizens see their own wages decrease because of a foul system which doesn't any longer follow the rules.

Again this is the core of the debate, is H1B abused or not, don't take it as an offense for anyone, it is not at all the purpose to offend anyone.

Best regards.


Eric,

I'm not arguing against anything you said. All I'm saying is that any intelligent analysis of salaries of H-1B workers would take their experience and skill levels into account. That is something that the article in the OP fails to do. So, it is hard for me to take anything in the article seriously because the author of the article doesn't even attempt to provide a balanced viewpoint.
Jack Haley
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Posts: 17
IMO, there is no comparison of natives to foreign nationals except the certification exam. Personality and street smarts are quantities that are hard to measure.

I met an H1-B from the UK ( caucasian ), South Africa, Sibieria, Bangladesh, China, and a zillion from India. By and large they were all capable people. Some were losers but some were power hitters. I don't think the median value of the foreign nationals was higher or lower than the natives.

The foreign nationals had their strengths and their weeknesses.

I'm not arguing against anything you said. All I'm saying is that any intelligent analysis of salaries of H-1B workers would take their experience and skill levels into account. That is something that the article in the OP fails to do. So, it is hard for me to take anything in the article seriously because the author of the article doesn't even attempt to provide a balanced viewpoint.
Well I think the capabilites and demographic data for the mean H1-B is known. Based on that the article has merit. The article could be better written. You could fill in some of the blanks in the article with links that may or may not exits on this board.

The best is always in short supply.

Who would be upset if the minimum wage of an H1-B with a BS and three years experience were set at $65K and the wage must rise with the cost of living. I.E. an H1 may come to the US and not ever get a raise/hike. And every year the minimum wage for a new non-immigrant would go up just like the social security cost of living.

I would support letting Bill Gates and the industry bringing in as many workers as they want if he will pay them $100,000+ annually. That would be $50 an hour.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Jack !

Well I think the capabilites and demographic data for the mean H1-B is known. Based on that the article has merit. The article could be better written. You could fill in some of the blanks in the article with links that may or may not exits on this board.

An obvious blank to me is wondering about the feasible means to enforce the H1B system which seem simply ignored. IMHO 3 very simple and costless means could completely get rid of H1B abuses :

1) Automatic opening of a local US bank account where alien's salary is directly sent, so that no part of it may be kept by his employer.

2) Wages for H1B aliens AT MINIMUM the median wage with heavy fines and automatic labour services inspection for trepassers. After all as H1B are expected to be according to law "the best and brightest" no logical excuse may be stated to pay them below this threshold.

3) Automatic GC for any alien hired on foul H1B who denounces his crook employers so that they are not tied to ther employers.

IMHO these 3 measures are perfectly compatible with the spirit of present laws and would make the use of alien labour necessary only when relevant skilled labour cannot be found locally.

I would support letting Bill Gates and the industry bringing in as many workers as they want if he will pay them $100,000+ annually. That would be $50 an hour.

I have always thought Microsoft's claim they can't find enough skilled people locally, so unlimited H1B must be allowed in US, is a pure absurd lie. A company which makes 1 billion $ of profits each mounth and owns almost as many lawyers as developpers to manage its very numerous legal cases simply can hire whoever it wants at any salary level even very high, especially considering many people want to work at them because of their reputation. And Microsoft owns many subsidiaries worldwide where no alien hire issues exist contrary to US, which denies them the right to claim for any hiring issue. I simply don't believe them on this matter, it cannot be true, not for them at least.

Best regards.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Jayesh !

I'm not arguing against anything you said. All I'm saying is that any intelligent analysis of salaries of H-1B workers would take their experience and skill levels into account. That is something that the article in the OP fails to do. So, it is hard for me to take anything in the article seriously because the author of the article doesn't even attempt to provide a balanced viewpoint.

I read again the article before answering, so I can say again providing a balanced viewpoint is not the point in this case.
Article clearly states (with figures which could be discussed but haven't been denied yet) that H1B in US are frequently paid much below prevailing wages compared to US citizens at equivalent experience levels, which is simply not compliant with the law.
If these figures are true it means H1B system is widely abused because many companies obviously don't comply to law, which is always bad, is easy to check because statistics are official, and cannot be discussed if these figures are true, period.

But the real discussion should be, if H1B system really is so frequently abused, why no crack down is almost ever made on foul employers or no enhancement is ever made or even proposed despite well known loopholes.

Best regards.
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Article clearly states (with figures which could be discussed but haven't been denied yet) that H1B in US are frequently paid much below prevailing wages compared to US citizens at equivalent experience levels, which is simply not compliant with the law.


Read the article again.

There are two seperate issues - one is where DOL's system is approving LCAs where they are explicitly not paying the prevailing wage, but it starts off by stating that many H-1B workers are making the prevailing wage, but that the prevailing wage is too low. That may be wrong or contrary to the intentions of the H-1B program, but it is certainly 100% legal.

Cheers!

Luke
Jack Haley
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Posts: 17
IMHO these 3 measures are perfectly compatible with the spirit of present laws and would make the use of alien labour necessary only when relevant skilled labour cannot be found locally.
I think you are misunderstanding the situation. IMO the government is seeking to drive down the cost of labor in the US. The US government buys a lot of labor. The US government is deep in debt.

There are certain jobs that cannot be offshored. The cheapest way to get these jobs done is to increase the supply of people who can do them.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Jack !

I think you are misunderstanding the situation.

No, not at all, I simply have my own opinions and doubts, like yourself, so simply different interpretations drawn from the same facts. Economics is not an exact science. But your own interpretations are perfectly accurate and valuable too, of course.
I still find completely opposite figures when trying to find out whether globalization is favourable or not, even for single US. The lack of really serious figures, mainly demagogical assets being brought frontend about but without any serious figures as backend, make me suspicious about real benefits of globalization, so I still am wondering without any firm opinion.

IMO the government is seeking to drive down the cost of labor in the US. The US government buys a lot of labor.

No. I don't think it is possible to say by any way that any government in world wants on purpose to decrease wealth of its own population (in this context) on purpose.
But you are completely right about the fact globalization has this effect, driving down cost of labour in all developed industrial countries, including US. It is a fact globalization, as organized by US gov, drives all middle class wages down in developped countries. If you prefer, financials with huge immediate benefits demands have taken control of present industry instead of entrepreners, which is deadly on long term. You even have a begin of revolt of many companies, with some famous people such as Warren Buffet at its head, who protest about present quarter policy which destroys companies' capital on long term.

IMHO the reason is that US gov is simply too much plagued by industrial lobbyists (about 65 lobbyists around each congressman) to be any worth defending its middle class against industrial interests. The latest US fiscal law being obviously designed for the 0.2 richest % of US population, clearly shows US gov relies on "drippling" theory to benefit whole US population. Issue is the "drippling" theory has never met any success before in any country where it was applied, hence a real danger of US middle class swift empoverishment if it doesn't work, which has never been observed anywhere before.

The US government is deep in debt.

Yes, and if situation doesn't evolve favourably it certainly will cost US its world economical leadership somewhere before 2030 as latest CIA economical survey forecasts, when its main creditor and concurent, China, will ask debts being paid back.
The only thing which prevents US economical collapse under weight of its debts now is the fact US consumption sustains the world economy but with money borrowed abroad (US presently need to borrow abroad 1 billion $ a day to carry on with their present consumption), but when China is ready it will ask payments of US debts back and will be world's main consumer instead, provoking US economical collapse.

There are certain jobs that cannot be offshored. The cheapest way to get these jobs done is to increase the supply of people who can do them.

This is no obvious point at all. In fact in all countries and for any business only 20% of staff is really good or better, the 80% remaining being average or worse (good old 80%/20% empirical law), so it is very likely that when economics booms the really skilled staff crews are in real shortage, for only these best 20% are expected by employers, so some good elements must be fetched abroad because all the good local ones are allready employed.

Issue is there are many obvious lies about H1B in US.
In 2003 or 2004 only 4 companies were convinced of using undocumented aliens, which would be great for tiny states as Monaco or Lichenstein, but of course ridiculously low for giganticly much bigger US, in clear undocumented alien employment was not enforced at all in US before present year where figures suddenly skyrocketed, very likely only because of near midterm election.
What is more many IT majors, Microsoft at their head, whined about getting rid of all caps so as to be able to hire any H1B they need because of skilled staff lack, else they would have to outsource abroad. This is simple lie as major IT companies have allready since long heavily outsourced abroad, especially in India, and as being rich and worldwide simply cannot pretend having any difficulty to hire. This is particulary true for Microsoft, with its 1 billion $ of benefits a mounth so able to hire anyone they want for any salary he wants, which was suddenly able to hire 16% more top skilled staff in a very few mounths so as to fight Google back, which just had done the same but never complained about hiring difficulties despite being much less rich in cash.

So I still stay for present at my latest position, the best way to hire alien H1B in a fair way is to pay them directly on a local US bank account the very same prevailing wages than US citizens with same skills level, so as to deny any possible "cheap" advantage. When employing aliens costs as much than locals, even a little more because of legal fees, you only hire aliens when you really need them, period. This remains the simplest fairest way to me, till then.

Best regards.
 
With a little knowledge, a cast iron skillet is non-stick and lasts a lifetime.
 
subject: According to Programmers Guild, foreign workers wages in US is a "sham"