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Worth taking 20% salary cut for ThoughtWorks?

Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
Hi,
I have recently been offered an offer from ThoughtWorks, B'lore.

I have been doing well in my cuurent company. However the main reason I am planning to make a move is to work on projects which have got more learning.

I would say my current company provides challenges to solve problems, but the learning as far as technology is concerned is not much.
That is why I am looking for a change.
Thoughtworks particularly interests me because if its methodologies as XP, pair programming etc.
Moreover, there I would become an IT consultant rather than a s/w dev. I guess, I would have better career profile as a consultant rather then a corner dev.

Well, money is not a constraint. However, the difference is quite big. I would be working on around 20% lesser salary.

What do you say? Taking a salary cut of 20% for Thoughtworks is worth??
abhishek roy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2006
Posts: 78
Originally posted by Navabhi Jain:

I have recently been offered an offer from ThoughtWorks, B'lore.

I have been doing well in my cuurent company. However the main reason I am planning to make a move is to work on projects which have got more learning.


Congratulations!!!

Definitely it is worth. If you are crazy about programming and learning then this will not be a matter. Finally what counts is your job satisfaction. I personally believe that the risk is worth it. But I still do not believe they will offer you 20 percent less than your current salary. Try to negotiate with the HR and I believe no company will give some 20 percent less then what you are getting.

Here your negotiation skills will come to play. Give a hard thought and then move on.


regards,<br />Abhishek
Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
Thanks Abhishek,
Well, they have already told me that they do not believe in negotiations.
They have asked me that this is my choice, take it or leave it.

Though you have sort of answered my question, I was wondering if you could please elaborate on how the offer is worth the salary cut.
Are you saying based on some first hands info or is it just your basic knowledge about the company?

Any input to help me decide would be highly appreciated.
alfred jones
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 279
20% salary less !!

come on man...

i cant believe ThoghtWorks started cost cutting mechanism...they are supposed to be wel paid.

BTW, are you getting overpaid in your current company ?
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

hi Navabhi !

Thoughtworks particularly interests me because if its methodologies as XP, pair programming etc.
Moreover, there I would become an IT consultant rather than a s/w dev. I guess, I would have better career profile as a consultant rather then a corner dev.
Well, money is not a constraint. However, the difference is quite big. I would be working on around 20% lesser salary.
What do you say? Taking a salary cut of 20% for Thoughtworks is worth??


I would say change for what interests you most, even if salary is slightly lower.

First you ought to acquire the widest sensible range of technologies, remaining stuck on very few ones is dangerous even if you are paid more.

What is more as you seem unhappy to stay but eager to change, I would say do what makes you happiest. "if you find a job you like, you won't work any single day in your life" (Confucius). If salary is a secundary constraint, do what you like most first, especially when it is better for your professional future.

At least, with these new skills, your wages will increase anyway sooner or later so you will catch up your former salary one day.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Mukesh Seth
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 27, 2005
Posts: 8
If the salary offered is 20% less and your current salary is not insanely high and you have lot of IT experience, my suggestion is do not join such a company, as it disrespectful. Companies that are interested in you, should give a premium for you to join their company, rather than expecting a premium from you.

I have been in such a situation, where a very big company despite my very solid years of experience was thinking of paying me lower even though the company is a fortune 500 company etc.

If they do not pay higher, then either it means, they just mean to use you or they will use you for menial work or company's financial situation is not good or company is not doing enough business. My suggestion is be wary of companies, that are not interested in paying you higher even though there might be a possibility to learn more (i.e if you dont have an insanely high salary or you dont have lot of experience/knowledge which is unlikely as TW would then have otherwise not been interested in recruiting you). On other hand, if the 20% doesnt bite you so much, you will gain from the TW brand in forthcoming years when you decide to make another jump.


No doubt, Thoughtworks is an outstanding consulting company, but I have learnt thru some blog post that they owe VCs lot of money and are not doing well financially. My thinking is, most ThoughtWorkers (in US especially) work as consultant and join for getting some stability in pay, however they do realize that doing consulting jobs on their own is better or joining big firms where they can earn lot of money is far more rewarding (though the tradeoff in joining big financial firms is some lack of work diversity) and many such TW consultants suddenly make the leap leaving a hole that is then is difficult to plug in TW.

[ August 06, 2006: Message edited by: Mukesh Seth ]

[ August 06, 2006: Message edited by: Mukesh Seth ]
[ August 06, 2006: Message edited by: Mukesh Seth ]
Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
Well, thanks a lot to you all for such educating responses.

I am currently working for a product development MNC, with 5.5 years of experience in C#/.NET;C/C++/Windows.

I have always been working at lower level writing device drivers etc.

After discussion with TW, it seems that they found potential in me. however given the fact that I do not have much hands on experience on the kind of projects they do such as Application Development, Web based applications etc, they are finding me as a lower level develepor against their requirements. IOW, they want me join as a junior dev irrespective of my number of years of experience and salary.

I am not being paid too high in my current company, however, I must confess that as it is a paymaster in India, I am being paid at the higher side of the salary range for a person of my experience in India.

Given the opportunity with TW, I am still interested in joining the same.

However my uber-concern is this:

I am willing to join TW on these assumptions:
1. TW has got brilliant developers
2. I shall get good opportunities to learn new and diverse technologies there at TW while working with brilliant devs.
3. TW will give me ample opportunities to work at client locations which may help me enhance my cleint interaction skills.
4. TW respects its employees and says what is written on thier website as "Why join TW/Why they are different".

My question is are all these assumptions correct? Is TW brand name worth giving it a benefit of doubt and leave high paying MNC?
[ August 14, 2006: Message edited by: Navabhi Jain ]
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

20% cut is too much.What will happen if you are not happy in your new place. You will be getting less salary also.


Groovy
Jignesh Patel
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 03, 2001
Posts: 626

20% less is not much if you are getting chance to work there, you are right you will surely learn more as a consultant. Moreover you may get chance for onsite. But if yes if you are thinking of thoughtworks USA then think twice as they are asking for 100% moving, which is not possible for many people.
Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
I am offered at TW, B'lore
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Originally posted by alfred jones:
20% salary less !!

come on man...

i cant believe ThoghtWorks started cost cutting mechanism...they are supposed to be wel paid.

BTW, are you getting overpaid in your current company ?


TW is not a top payer. You can check some of the old threads here.
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704
20% less of your current salary is not less. You need to take a decision based on other conditions. Think on what you are going to get by loosing 20% of your current salary. I agree that ThoughtWorks is good company but it is not the only good company and there are other good companies too where you can explore. Try to bargain with ThoughtWorks so that atleast you will get same salary as your current salary.

Good luck.
Jignesh Patel
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 03, 2001
Posts: 626

I would suggest to join TW. If you don't like you can still get better chance based on work you will do in TW.
What I understand is, you are joing TW for learning not for Pay.
My philosophy is money doesn't matter when you are learning and that learning always have one good biproduct, to which we call money.
[ August 07, 2006: Message edited by: Jignesh Patel ]
Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
The question is:
Is it correct that TW is good and would provide me learning opportunities, indeed?
M Movilogo
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 17, 2006
Posts: 63
Usually people offer less pay when they have no choice (either laid off or current company is in trouble). Joining ThoughtWorks from Microsoft [& with less pay] looks like a bit strange!
Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
Well, one may leave MNC and join TW if learning in MNC is very limited AND learning in TW is better.
This is the case with me :-(
[ August 14, 2006: Message edited by: Navabhi Jain ]
alfred jones
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 279
if you are looking for learning experience....join a startup company then.
big MNC's dont have learning experiences.
i would be happy to work in smaller company.

here are my points.

1) YES and YES...you will learn.
2) personal care , attention to the employess.
3) small family ..every one knows each other.
4) transparency in work.


some people will argue, Big MNC , big brand will help to sort the resume.
umm....but i will say, people from smaller company are better than bigger company.

the only problem might be..in smaller company might have the politics .

otherwise smaller companies are best to work with.
Jignesh Patel
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 03, 2001
Posts: 626

Spoke to TW Manager and Find out. If you have doubt then don't leave.
But if you want to learn and saturated with MS then you have to take chance somewhere if not TW.
Aravind Kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 03, 2003
Posts: 39
Dont think ThoughtWorks is the only company where you can learn. As someone pointed out, join a startup company. nothing can match that.

Getting into thought works is not that difficult. I had an experience with those people. I applied for a job in US from germany. i was a student then. after a month i received a mail asking me to solve three problems with java/C. I did. And I received a call from HR in UK for an appointment for telephonic interview. I did attend the telephone interview. Just a plain tech interview. During that they relealized I am still a student and will be finishing masters in 4 months. I have clearly mentioned that in the covering letter and CV. Then they turned down the offer.

This just shows how "efficient" the people there are. I was really pissed off at them for wasting my time like this. ThoughtWorks gained this much popularity just becos Martin Fowler works there i guess!

My suggestion would be Dont go for it!

I forgot to add this: I was interviewed for a position in b'lore. I have also mentioned clearly that I am looking for a position anywhere in US in the covering letter.
[ August 07, 2006: Message edited by: Aravind Nambi ]
alfred jones
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 279
>after a month i received a mail asking me to solve three problems with
>java/C.

irrk....is this the way they interview !


I dislike java/c puzzles....some of my friends claims that they are getting c/java puzzles in the interview.

come on man...puzzles are good to learn and nice to read....but no, this is not the deterministic criteria for a candidates selection.

I know some interviewer asks these questions just to show off how much they know it ....they just read some puzzles before the interview and puts those questions to the candidate.......i scolded one my friend for taking such kind of interview .

we dont use any tricky puzzle in our developement application ..do we :roll:

an Application gets success because of its SIMPLICITY.

ask questions which are relevant to the project.
ask questions which are very basic, people should know.
ask simple questions which are answerable but good.
Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
TWI has somewhat matched my current salary. In my current company, I am going to get another 13-15% hike starting next month though :-)

Overall TWI sounds interesting to me.
But it is not so talked about company in India, it seems. None of my friends have even heard of it.

Tough call!
Sumit Chopra
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2006
Posts: 176
Its tough to match Microsoft salaries and benefits. They are just amazing in that respect. I think you should not expect the same so go for it.

Any instances of j2ee people going to Microsoft ?
alfred jones
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 279
Any instances of j2ee people going to Microsoft ?


i have not heard though....BTW, even if anybody goes having Sun j2ee background....they will push into Visual J++

yhhhh...dont like J++ at all.
Sumit Chopra
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2006
Posts: 176
Why ? With J2ee backgrounf anybody can work in .net technologies. Anyways, they have lifted it straight from java only.
alfred jones
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 279
yes one can do it ....after all oops......do you have any desire to shift from j2ee to .net ? or you just want to do it because of it is microsoft !
Sumit Chopra
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2006
Posts: 176
Its because Microsoft pays lots of $$$$.
Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
Guys, I guess we are digressing from the actual topic :-)
Sumit Chopra
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2006
Posts: 176
So are you going to join thoughtworks?
Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
I am still investigating.

If I would have been in any other company, I would have readily joined TW.

However, as I am already working for a high paying MNC, it is tough call for me.

To add to the discouragement is the fact that B'lore has higher cost of living and TW is paying me less then my next month's (hiked) salary :-(

I wish they could just catch with what I am getting here to ease my decision...
[ August 14, 2006: Message edited by: Navabhi Jain ]
alfred jones
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 279
My Suggestion :
---------------
Tell them to pay at least the same salary if they cant give you the hike.
salary down is not a good sign ....after few days you feel that.

If they dont agree to give you the same salary, leave it...there are so many companies are there in the market.

As you have lots of exp in c,c++ etc in MS , so it would be easy for you to find similar jobs in the market.

after all, your decision.

this is just my opinion.

best of luck

Regards
Alfred.
Navabhi Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 17
Thanks Alfred!
I value your suggestion. TWI has somewhat matched my current salary. Its just that I would be loosing on yearly bonus and stocks at my current company. Moroever, I won't get any premium for relocation and job change.
Anyway I am considering TWI in anticipation that it would be a good organization altogether.
ambar patil
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Posts: 226
you also need to consider from onsite perspective.If there are good chances of onsite there then I think you can compensate for low package.Some of the previous discussions told that there are good chances of onsite.Have you talk about onsite with hr?
M Movilogo
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 17, 2006
Posts: 63
I appeared in TWI interview 2 years back. Then they told me that they did have onsite opportunties, but unlikely to go beyond 3-6 months.
Abhineet Kapil
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 52

Hey, Did you finally join TW ?
Tim Cooke
Bartender

Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 1026
    
  48

Hello Abhineet, You know this thread is 8 years old right? And the OP hasn't posted anything since this thread either so I wouldn't hold your breath for a reply.


Tim Driven Development
Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 41906
    
  63
Actually, this is the kind of discussion that we no longer want to host; please see the posting guidelines of this forum. I am therefore closing this subject.


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subject: Worth taking 20% salary cut for ThoughtWorks?