File APIs for Java Developers
Manipulate DOC, XLS, PPT, PDF and many others from your application.
http://aspose.com/file-tools
The moose likes Jobs Discussion and the fly likes Etiquette and standards for interviewees. Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Android Security Essentials Live Lessons this week in the Android forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Careers » Jobs Discussion
Bookmark "Etiquette and standards for interviewees." Watch "Etiquette and standards for interviewees." New topic
Author

Etiquette and standards for interviewees.

Miguel Schumacher
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Posts: 9
I have been hiring people in India lately for technical roles and had several (bad) experiences mostly related to the attitude of people about the puntuality and honest communication.

Some of them are:
1. Programmers apply for so many jobs, that they do not remember even next day when and why they have applied.
2. People do not show up for interviews. They confirm the night before they will come and then next day they will switch off the phone. They have no courtsey to inform if they are not planning to come.
3. Sending job application with a covering letter in SMS language such as:


Some people will say - Yes, but all are not like that.. True but this attitude is so common in India not seen elsewhere in world.

I would like to state that I have no ill attitude towards the IT industry and offshore outsourcing in India.

[BPSouther: Changed subject line]
[ October 16, 2006: Message edited by: Ben Souther ]
Miguel Schumacher
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Posts: 9
There should be a registry of people who spoil the image of IT profession and IT industry in India.
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5

Well... India is on a hiring spree. The IT industry is expanding and the major MNCs are hiring like mad. I know some people who dont know the difference between the RAM that the computer has and its speed and they are developing applications for clients. I am not saying this is the case everywhere. The quality of the people you can get is not as good as it used to be. Not every one is in the industry because they want a job that is IT related. This is true for soft skills too. People are being offered so many jobs that there are many job hoppers and people dont find the need to inform the company that they will not attend an interview or fill a vacancy. Is this the first time you have come here to hire ? Is your company a servicing company or do you develop applications for clients ?


SCJP 6 articles - SCJP 5/6 mock exams - More SCJP Mocks
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5

There should be a registry of people who spoil the image of IT profession and IT industry in India.


NASSCOM is suggesting a NSR (National Skills Registry) database where preverified, valid information will be stored. The web site is under this address http://www.nationalskillsregistry.com/

This is not a standard as yet, but if it is properly maintained it would be great. Even if employers had this to go by, it wouldnt stop people from not informing you that they wont attend the interview. The database is just to prevent false information and fake experience from creeping into CVs and to perform a consolidated back ground check. Atleast it will help filter some people.
[ October 14, 2006: Message edited by: John Meyers ]
Miguel Schumacher
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Posts: 9
John, I have worked in Europe for about 10 yrs before moving to India to start up a new company. These issues I have faced from the day one over here.

Candidates expect to be treated like a herd when they are invited for an interview here. For example, on any Saturday 100 people will be waiting at the gate of TCS for an interview. So the candidates think it does not matter whether they show up or not. In this mass selection process, the quality of candidates and some basic professional respect takes a backseat. Imagine dropping your CV in a big drum inside a tent, as Logica did in Bangalore.

Moreover, you would have noticed how Indian headhunters and candidates spam various messageboards even if they are not even remotely related to what they are looking for. An Indian jobsite boasts a feature called "Submit your resume to 2000 employers" . It is kind of Do it yourself spam.

All this posses a problem for a small company that would like to give lot of attention to an individual candidate when he comes for an interview. We plan time for it, we cancel our family events for it. So probably, the biggies do not mind if a candidate has not turned up for the interview without no notice.

I find not turning up for an appointment bad, annoying and unprofessional and a bad publicity for Indian IT professionals.

[ October 14, 2006: Message edited by: Miguel Schumacher ]
[ October 14, 2006: Message edited by: Miguel Schumacher ]
Rajesh Patel
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Posts: 54
Miguel ,

I guess you have not understood the Indian Job market yet .Every SW professional in India is having 3-4 jobs in hand when they want a job switch .This is happening because all MNCs and indian companies are at hiring spree to get the cost advantage.
Gone are the days when candidates were running after companies..Now its companies turn to run after this SW professionals.
I guess you are also in to India for this cost advantage ..why someone will be interested in your unbranded startup when they have offers from reputed branded companies ? You need to treat all the candidates well to attract them as well as retain them ...

Good Luck !


Join this yahoo group for company discussion
Gagan Indus
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2001
Posts: 346
Miguel,

From what i see, you are correct on many accounts but as you yourself added, it is not as rampant as you would like to think.

As for me i have only sent my resume couple of places and have attended interview both times, and most of my friends are similar, haven't even updated their resume in years. But i know of few people for whom applying to new job every weekend is a sort of hobby. It is discourging to see some people whom i would rate technically decent have also fallen for this, Though i still don't know of many who would not keep the potential employer informed at each stage, but there are some. But in general the folks who do this are not passionate about work, generally less skilled or willing to learn, and may not be worth hiring. (Of course this is a generalization based on what i see). These folks only get away with this because demand supply curve is in their favour right now.

Maybe every company should bar such people from applying for any future openings with them (An article couple of months back said some companies have already started doing this). And should thoroughly analyze the reasons for frequent job-hopping before hiring them. That would discourage these practice.


Gagan (/^_^\) SCJP2 SCWCD IBM486 <br />Die-hard JavaMonk -- little Java a day, keeps you going.<br /><a href="http://www.objectfirst.com/blog" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">My Blog</a>
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704
Originally posted by Miguel Schumacher:
I have been hiring people in India lately for technical roles and had several (bad) experiences mostly related to the attitude of people about the puntuality and honest communication.

Some of them are:
1. Programmers apply for so many jobs, that they do not remember even next day when and why they have applied.
2. People do not show up for interviews. They confirm the night before they will come and then next day they will switch off the phone. They have no courtsey to inform if they are not planning to come.
3. Sending job application with a covering letter in SMS language such as:




Miguel, I agree with you that this is not good. But you know even recruiters are some way causing this. I feel the following are the reasons which is causing the problems:

1. Recruiters do take interviews and dont even bother to inform incase they are not hiring the person. If a person got rejected based on technical interview then it ok, but if a person got rejected based on some other unknown reason that is bad from their part. With this kind of treatment some people are not so serious about interview.

2. Some companies call people for interview at a scheduled time but they never bother to conduct interview at the fixed time and they make the person to wait for a long time. I understood the recruiters can have work pressure but they should plan their time.

3. Miscommunication between HR and technical interview panel.

4. Miscommunication between the job consultant and company.

Finally as you said the other reason is bad attitude of the canddiate. I seen very less people who communicates if they are coming late or not coming. Hope as the time passes this issues will be rectified.
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5

Yep ! Companies are to blame too. Not all companies keep time. Even the big guys take their own sweet time to tell you whether you got the job or not and sometimes they dont even bother telling you that you were not selected. Sad really
Jignesh Patel
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 03, 2001
Posts: 626

Miguel,

I have passed through what you are facing now, when we have started unit in Kochi. In kochi we were not getting good engineers and from Banglore, Chennai people doesn't care to reply after applying. So the solution I found out is, instead of hiring experienced engineers I started hiring fresh engineers and then gave them proper training in Struts on the real time projects by putting some extra efforts.

Also I do suggest you if you starting a unit in India then probably try to goto second tier cities like Ahemedabad, Mangalore, Vadodara, Jaypur instead of going to big cities where every candidate will have 2 jobs ready.
In currenty situation best solution hire a sr. architect who has very good knowledge of java technology, give him very good perks, maintaing very good terms with him so he will not leave. And then start hiring fresh engineers with a descent package, I can tell you they will minimum stay for an year.
[ October 14, 2006: Message edited by: Jignesh Patel ]
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704
Originally posted by John Meyers:
Even the big guys take their own sweet time to tell you whether you got the job or not and sometimes they dont even bother telling you that you were not selected. Sad really


I see this problem more with big companies who calims they are prferred employer. Once I went for an interview with big company scheduled at 9 am. Till 10 am HR dont even bother to talk with me. At 10 am he came and told that technical panel is not avaialabe and I need to wait for some time. When I told him that I need to go back to office and it is already 1 hour delay the response I got from his very rude saying that I came for interview and I am expected to spend whole day. Here what I want to say is if the recruiter forgets time sense it causes that candidate may forget it. Both parties are equally responsible.
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704
Originally posted by Jignesh Patel:
In kochi we were not getting good engineers and from Banglore, Chennai people doesn't care to reply after applying.
[ October 14, 2006: Message edited by: Jignesh Patel ]


For this kind of situations even companies should be blamed. How many companies will take responsibility of informing the candidate about his application status? Once I got a call from one HR saying that they have requirement matching to my profile. He discussed about the job for atleast 30 mins and took all my personal details and told that my profile exactly matches to their requirement and he fixed some time for technical interview on next day. Next day I took 1 hour break from my work for the interview but I never got the call and they dont even bothered to inform me why they didn't make call.

I am not just blaming companies for this, I wanted to say for this kind of situations both the company and candidate are the reasons.
[ October 14, 2006: Message edited by: KJ Reddy ]
Srikanth Raghavan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 31, 2005
Posts: 389
Where do you guys live in India??? 4 job offers, I can only dream about it.

Its true as KJ Reddy said that the people hiring dont care to inform the people who got rejected, I know so many of my friends who havent heard a word from the HR person after attending the interview...

I have also heard of my friends telling me about the behaviour of the HR people during the interview and they all say that its very rude and they treat the job seekers like slaves. Well, exceptions are always there cause I have attended only 2 interviews till now and both were very nice, but that was 1.5 years ago.

So may be the job seekers think its pay back time.
Miguel Schumacher
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Posts: 9
Miguel ,
This is happening because all MNCs and indian companies are at hiring spree to get the cost advantage.

Gone are the days when candidates were running after companies..Now its companies turn to run after this SW professionals.

Good Luck !


This post reflects the mentatlity of a typical Indian IT professional. They have no clue how hard it is to sell India abroad even with cheap wages. Having lived in Holland for long time, I came across several stories of poor work and commitment ethics of Indian people.

Now that India is getting integrated into world economy, these people think the world should embrace their poor work culture.

Please see a response from a candidate who did not turn up for interview.

Hi xxx,
>
> I want to inform you that , i went for xxx for a technical interview,
but
> didn't able to find the company and during that time my mobile went off so
,
> i did'nt able to get in touch with you.
>
> so please suggest me what to do .
>
> Regards
> Rxx xxxkla


Rajesh Patel thinks that we are in a game to show who is the boss. However, with this behaviour, the IT industry gets a bad name which all are part of. Imagine airlines pilots doing this. It is time to give up college time bad habits.

With rising wages it is very unlikely that anybody will accept these way of working.
Jason Cox
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 287
Miguel,

Sadly this is largely the same attitude that many software "professionals" in the US had during the dotcom boom. It took many years after the bust to get rid of the numerous frauds.

I see something very similar happening in India and it saddens me a great deal. A lot of people seem to expect these sudden rises in prosperity to last forever, but it never does. The IT industry in India is still evolving and is likely to go through some dramatic ups and downs before it stabilizes. I am still waiting for the IT profession in the US to go through less dramatic rises and falls as it is, though there are signs that it is getting much better.

The arrogance and nonchalance are all part of the market. If someone thinks they will have no problem finding a job then they think they have a better bargaining position. This attitude would be the same if we were talking about people in the US, India, China, or anywhere. Believe me, after dealing with people here in the US in a similar environment this has all happened before.

Fortunately, the IT professionals I have worked with from India have all been top notch. There are very few I would not be willing to work with again.

I guess all I can say is to be patient and to take people as individuals. Obviously anyone who can't be bothered to be professional doesn't deserve a job.
Sandeep Ghosh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 145
Hi Miguel,
I am sure after some initial hiccups you will have nice lasting experience in India. Welcome to India.
On a different note, I feel angry about one attitude of MNC. They are ready to pay ($90K-$100K) to a programmer in US or Europe, but in India if a programmer with the same or more expertise ask Rs 10 Lakhs/Annum ($25K) it is termed as exorbitant and rude.
Kj Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 1704
Originally posted by Miguel Schumacher:

However, with this behaviour, the IT industry gets a bad name which all are part of. Imagine airlines pilots doing this. It is time to give up college time bad habits.

With rising wages it is very unlikely that anybody will accept these way of working.


I agree with you Miguel, the situation is mainly because of demand and supply problem. But compare to 2003, 2004 situation slowly becoming better interms of people attitude and prfessionalism.

No matter, technically how good is the person many company's started rejecting job seeker based on the following reasons:

1. Bad attitude(Things like if a person didnt turn to interview without any valid reason).
2. If a person is changing job just because of money.

Definitely it is improving day by day and it is a healthy indication. Atleast I have seen people in the other part of world are being happy with our work and the support we are providing to them.
[ October 14, 2006: Message edited by: KJ Reddy ]
Miguel Schumacher
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Posts: 9

Post by Rahul:
On a different note, I feel angry about one attitude of MNC. They are ready to pay ($90K-$100K) to a programmer in US or Europe, but in India if a programmer with the same or more expertise ask Rs 10 Lakhs/Annum ($25K) it is termed as exorbitant and rude.


Those who intend to be at par with US salaries, do not comprehend why IT companies come to India. An offshore development work posses higher risks for the companies. According to Gartner, a very fine tuned offshore delivery model can not deliver more than 30% costs savings. The lower wages in India compensate for loss of efficiency in communication over the distance. American programmers will be always more expensive since for many IT jobs you have to be close to the customer.

Indian salaries are growing and will continue to grow for a significant time to come. They are not bad today either. Programmers earn better than doctors, engineers and archiects.

A candidate, with 3 years experience, who was earning 7.2 L asked for 14 L salary after an interview with us. Almost 100% raise. He could very poorly justify why he did deserve that hike. He said - he is a hard worker and fast learner.

Every candidate who comes for an interview says that he is a hard worker and fast learner so people are unwilling to take a plunge and prove themselves before they ask for crazy wage hikes.
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5

A candidate, with 3 years experience, who was earning 7.2 L


He is already over paid !
Ben Souther
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 13410

This thread was trashed for the weekend because of it's subject line.
I've changed it and restored the thread.

Please remember:
  • There are millions of people in India. It is not reasonable or fair to describe a group of people as "Indian Developers".
  • Standards and professionalism are important in any country. During the dot com boom in the US, many developers here 'forgot' their manners as well.
  • Discussions that group people by race and/or nationality are not nice and therefore not worthy of being published by Javaranch.


  • [ October 16, 2006: Message edited by: Ben Souther ]

    Java API J2EE API Servlet Spec JSP Spec How to ask a question... Simple Servlet Examples jsonf
    Pradeep bhatt
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Feb 27, 2002
    Posts: 8904

    I agree that candidates do not show up on many occasions, have multiple offers, don't tell that they won't join etc.

    What about recruiters who don't let know the interview result. Commonly heard "We will get back to you" which means actually that you are not selected. The recruites never reply back.

    The fault lies with both recruiters and candidates. Looks like this happens only in India like so many other things.


    Groovy
    Sonny Gill
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Feb 02, 2002
    Posts: 1211

    Originally posted by Rajesh Patel:
    ..why someone will be interested in your unbranded startup when they have offers from reputed branded companies ?


    How about -

    * ability to make a difference, not being a cog in the machine.
    * less office politics, fewer idiots to put up with every day.
    * some say in technologies you want to work in, the way you want to work
    * have more fun working
    * get more work done, hence more job satisfaction
    ... I could go on...


    I feel your pain Miguel.

    The sad thing is that there are too many companies and too many candidates whose only concern is how much money they save, or make. As a result, both the companies and the candidates who truly care about what they do, get drowned out in the noise.

    Anyway, some time ago, I remember reading about how Thoughtworks, India handled the same problem. I can't find the link now, but if you come across it, there may be a few tips in there that you might find useful.

    Good Luck.


    The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet. - William Gibson
    Consultant @ Xebia. Sonny Gill Tweets
    Aj Mathia
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Apr 11, 2003
    Posts: 478
    This is just a suggestion from a bystander.
    You could consider one of the models used here in Australia.
    You could target new recruiters and propose to pay them much higher than what you currently are paying head hunters.
    Put across your requirements clearly.
    Get them to do a proper match where it is their responsibility to provide top candidates they have to do the verbal assessment and the behavioural check.
    They have to check the CV and ensure that the key requirements you are looking for are present.
    Most importantly they should question candidates as to why they are looking to join and identify worth people.
    If they provide more than x hopeless candidates you can drop them from your recruiter panel list.
    This way you face fewer headaches and head hunters do what they are actually meant to do.


    You think you know me .... You will never know me ... You know only what I let you know ... You are just a puppet ... --CMG
    Kj Reddy
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Sep 20, 2003
    Posts: 1704
    Originally posted by Sonny Gill:


    The sad thing is that there are too many companies and too many candidates whose only concern is how much money they save, or make.


    It makes me to worry when I see people becoming more greedy. They want more money and money but they never think about what they can give in return to the company. When I took interviews I seen many people asking like this "x company giving y amount, are you giving me more then that or not?", they dont bother what work etc.,

    Unfortunately companies also acting very greedy like they are trying to give as less salary as possible. This is ok if a person getting high salary and less jump. But if a person already getting less salary and got less hike then that guy will be demotivated after joining company and if he knows other people are getting more salary with less experience.

    Even interviewrs are not following minimum standards. I always feel that they need some training on how to take interviews. They dont even bother about to go thru the resume to understand to whom they are going to take interviews. They dont understand what kind of requirement they have and who will fit into that requirement. They just blindly asks questions in the areas they are interested rather asking question based on the requirement. This kind of interviews makes a job seeker frustated and loose the control and which leads to forget the etiquette and standarads.

    This is the situation I observed in India and not sure about other countries. But I assume it should be more or less same situation if there huge demand and less supply.
     
    I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
     
    subject: Etiquette and standards for interviewees.
     
    Similar Threads
    Jobs in US
    Motorcycle safety...
    How to get max hike ?
    java job market in u.s
    Clash of Civilizations!!