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Java's use in Microsoft

Neil Andrade
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 08, 2001
Posts: 12
In which Microsoft program is Java used ?
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
This question sounds familiar.
Microsoft had a Java Clone called J++. It no longer supports that language. Now it has a different Java Clone called C# (C sharp) which will be release with Visual Studio.Net v6.
Microsoft is not into the community spirit and likes you to PAY for the same stuff that Sun gives you for free.


"JavaRanch, where the deer and the Certified play" - David O'Meara
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
Oh yeah, If YOU write a Java program (applet or servlet etc) you can run it in Internet Explorer (a Microsoft product). But do it fast. They are "thinking" about removing the JVM from their browser. They are REAL ticked off that Sun won the lawsuit against them, so now they are out to get even.
Perhaps we should be looking more at Netscape Navigator as a browser.
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
1) Unfortunately, 90% above users in the world are using IE as their browser.
2) Netscape browser does not compliant with W3 standard. Read more from www.w3schools.com
3) Netscape forces you install a lot of unwanted aol software, and when you uninstall Netscape, it does not uninstall them accordingly, and leaves your Windows registry a big mess. This kind of bad practice really ticks you off.
I'm not Micro$oft fan, Bill Gates does more nasty things than Netscape does. However, if IE really stops to support Java, it would be a real threat to Java future. Hopefully that is just a rumor.
As a developer, we have to live with facts.
Roseanne
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Experts:
Correct me, please, if I'm wrong.
I do not think JSP/Servlet requires browser supports Java, as long as you do not use Applets or JavaBean plug-in. Because what JSP/Servlets send to browser is pure static HTML.
I think that stick to serverside Java, we are OK.
Thanks!
Roseanne
Join our SCJD Study Group when certified
Matts Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 03, 2001
Posts: 113
JSP/servlet communicate with the browser using the http protocol.
I don't think IE will stop supporting it soon
octavyn pittman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 134
I actually prefer the new Netscape 6.0 browser over IE although I have usually preferred IE to Netscape because of ease of use, features, "cleanliness" and other factors. There are a lot of Java programmers out there, and a lot of people who are trying to learn it. It seems that would be a big factor for MS not to stop supporting Java applets, but maybe not.
Also, there used to be a lot of hype about the big plus of security of Java versus MS' ActiveX components (which give unlimited access to the system). However, this hype seems to have died down, with more hype being focused on the email vb viruses that are out there.
A lot of people question the real usefulness of Java applets and don't see the power that can be unveiled in corporate systems using well architected systems which use Java applets as a GUI--especially with Java 1.3 and Swing.
IF Microsoft truly controls 90% of the browser market, their refusal to continue supporting Java would be huge and perhaps they could do it with some cost in usership, but that could benefit them immensely too. It would be good if someone could find some other effective leverage (ie, another truly effective competitor, etc) to FORCE Microsoft to continue supporting Java. But there really has been little competition other than Netscape (which is descent) and Opera (relatively unknown).
It seems like Sun could really jump in there and do something since they could also offer a free browser (sorry if they do and I just don't know about it).
my $.03
OP
Nathan Pruett
Bartender

Joined: Oct 18, 2000
Posts: 4121

What's the big deal with M$ not supporting Java with their browser? People will either just change browsers or just have to download the Java Plug-In to run applets...
Wow... that might actually work to standardize the browser VMs more... a plus for applet developers...
And how many other plug-ins do people download all the time... Flash, RealPlayer, QuickTime, etc... I admit it's a pain to download and install a plug-in to view someone's page, but the more pages that use a plug-in the more useful it is to install...
And with all the Java stuff on the web already, it looks like M$ just shot themselves in the foot...
Just my $0.02,
-Nate
<lt>Disclaimer : Sorry... this post came off sounding a little more judgemental than I meant... sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings! (And too bad if I did! I mean, it's just a BROWSER !!! Get over it!)(Ooops! Sorry again! )<gt>
[This message has been edited by Nathan Pruett (edited March 15, 2001).]


-Nate
Write once, run anywhere, because there's nowhere to hide! - /. A.C.
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
There have been rumours about Microsoft (look mummy, someone spelled the entire word) dropping Java support in IE for years. According to those rumours, IE4 would come without Java, then IE5, and now IE6.
So far the only major (for the moment) browser that by default ships without Java support is Netscape 6 (which offers it only as an optional component).


42
Nathan Pruett
Bartender

Joined: Oct 18, 2000
Posts: 4121

Jeroen,
Yes, I agree that it is probably an Internet Urban legend ( since I have heard it before too ), though with the Sun/M$ court battle that has been going on recently, it seems a little closer to reality. I was just arguing that it wouldn't be necessarily bad for Java, but would be bad for M$.
-Nate
P.S. - Yes, you spelled the entire word, but you misspelled it... the correct spelling is Micro$oft... or alternatively Micro$haft. ( P.P.S - Just kidding! )
[This message has been edited by Nathan Pruett (edited March 16, 2001).]
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
Netscape 6 is more compliant with w3c than IE 5 is. So I heard.
Micro$hit (Oops, sorry!) is not going to support any Java in IE6. That's what they say today. But IE6 is not out yet.
Maybe that's good. So Sun can issue an uniform JDK 1.3 plug-in for WinDoze and finally all "browsers" (Internet 'clients' as per Andreesen) will be finally Java-compatible!
With the rapid rise of adoption of broadband in the USA, the lodaing-time issue of the mid 1990s for Java applets is gone.
Now Micro$haft is more scared than then about Java. We DON'T need more 'stinkin' Java 1.02 applets. We can do BETTER (Java 2).
[This message has been edited by Tony Alicea (edited March 16, 2001).]


Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
Daniel Searson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 03, 2000
Posts: 83
I agree that it could be a good thing that Microsoft are no longer supporting Java in their browsers. Its not like the Microsoft VM that came with previous versions of IE was any good anyway. Now everyone can use the "real" VM from Sun instead.


- Daniel
Kevin Yip
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 17, 2000
Posts: 110
I believe Microsoft definitely will be at a loss if IE6 does not support Java at this moment. Certain people will be frustrated by the fact that some of the web sites which are used to display properly will suddenly not working. They will then start to consider switching their browsers.
This move of MS is inconsistent with its past strategies of trying to bloat everything into a program so to capture as much market share as possible.??
As such, it seems to me MS is just trying to make some IT executives to stop adopting java in their web/e-business development because MS is 'telling' them that IE is not going to support it. Following this reasoning, I believe it will take a 'reasonable' long time for MS to release IE6 (or the version that really doesn't support Java - perhaps IE 6.1, 6.5, or 7.0) in order to allow sufficient time for companies to switch development tools. Let's watch...
Actually C# is still far behind Java in functionally and stability. It seems to me that MS should not have much bargaining power at the moment to really not to support Java, until Sun and Netscape are so dumb in the meantime... If IE6 do really not support Java at this juncture, it'll be a good news for Sun and Netscape because now is a good time to kick MS out of the play field when it still has nothing comparable to replace Java.
ryan burgdorfer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 24, 2001
Posts: 219
There is no way MS will release IE 6 without native Java support. That won't happen until (unless?) C# becomes a viable Java replacement - which will be a long, long time (if ever).
~ My $.02
------------------
  • Ryan Burgdorfer
  • Java Acolyte in
  • Columbus, OH USA


<UL TYPE=SQUARE><I><LI>Ryan Burgdorfer<BR><LI>Java Acolyte</I></UL>
Bidyut Padhi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 07, 2000
Posts: 121
Hi friends!
I am not moking any one .But what Ms was doing with it's OS brand??? :confused
Ms Producing Windows family like we have population in INDIA.
I hope atleast ther should be a time gape and The added feature should be more then the previous one.
see the family bellow...
Windos3.1,windows95,windows97,windows98,windowsME..
WindowsNT ,windows 2000, Now the new born will be WindowsXP..
teh year searies is over.
I hope any vender should try to make One or Two Os and keep on adding feature to them so that all section of people can get advantage.
If any thing rong correct me.
regards
Bidyut

[This message has been edited by Bidyut Padhi (edited March 20, 2001).]
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
FYI, Sun has a browser: http://java.sun.com/products/hotjava/3.0/
Unfortunately it's not as good as IE or Netscape, but it's a foundation to build upon should Sun ever decide that the browser is a major priority. Should IE6 not support Java, download the plugin. I'm developing some web sites and IE usually presents everything accurately, while Netscape (4.7 & 6) tends to have minor problems.
I understand that C# will only run on Windows. If that's true, it's missed the boat already. Plus it's a little late to market. J2EE already has substantial support.
Cheers,
Scott
[This message has been edited by scott rodgers (edited March 20, 2001).]
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
If Micro$oft ever stops supporting JVM in their browser I think it will loose it's browser market.
Okay okay I know you would not agree. But if I ask you how do you run Flash animations.... using a plugin....right?
So, I guess someone has to come-up with a IE JVM plugin just like Flash and other plugins. Let's hope that Sun or someone will come up with such plugins.
Besides, if you want to run applets in future keep a backup copy of free IE5.5 and use it in future.
Faisal
Kalpesh Soni
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 02, 2001
Posts: 312
I really enjoyed this discussin
the only thing i didnt get is
what is this
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Frank Carver
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 07, 1999
Posts: 6920
There already is a Java plugin for all the major browsers. It's been available with the JDK/SDK since Java 1.1.
Unfortunately, there are still a few problems though. The first is the download size. To install it requires a several-meg download which not everyone wants to do. The second problem is that as it is a plugin it no longer uses the familiar < APPLET > syntax, but instead uses < OBJECT > or < EMBED >. The third problem is that it greatly complicates interoperation between Applets and JavaScript, and makes some basic operations impossible.


Read about me at frankcarver.me ~ Raspberry Alpha Omega ~ Frank's Punchbarrel Blog
ankush mehta
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 08, 2001
Posts: 20
Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
Oh yeah, If YOU write a Java program (applet or servlet etc) you can run it in Internet Explorer (a Microsoft product). But do it fast. They are "thinking" about removing the JVM from their browser. They are REAL ticked off that Sun won the lawsuit against them, so now they are out to get even.
Perhaps we should be looking more at Netscape Navigator as a browser.

yes cindy, i completely agree with u.
maybe we should stop using ie altogether and start using similar alternatives for microsoft like office suites and operating systems.
Vishakha Ahuja
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 13, 2000
Posts: 191
I enjoyed the discussion, but I want to know what is this battle about ?
Originally posted by Nathan Pruett:

" with the Sun/M$ court battle that has been going on recently"


[This message has been edited by Vishakha Ahuja (edited March 20, 2001).]
Nathan Pruett
Bartender

Joined: Oct 18, 2000
Posts: 4121

Vishakha,
Here is a short article on the settlement between Sun and M$...
HTH,
-Nate
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
There are alternatives for all Micro$oft products and most of them are free. I don't know if people uses java applet animations anymore. Usually Flash animations do the job well unless you wish to do something which can't be done with other plugins. I really hate seeing Micro$ost making C# by just copying Java (changing few keywords) but claiming that it is similar to C++ instead of Java. I am sure Micro$oft will not be able to come up with something like J2EE atleast in 4 years time.
What I think is that Java is mostly used for enterprise servers. Let's all support Java.
Faisal
Surya Bahadur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2000
Posts: 88
Hi
Have you heard about JUMP to .Net,which actually converts the code written in java to C#,i don't know how many people are going to use it,but it can be considered as an example to your question.
Surya
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
.Net is not released yet, but I don't think it will be as big as J2ME+J2SE+J2EE. MS is far behind on this. Don't you realise J2 is improving very fast. Just look at the new feature of J2SE 1.4 to find out more.
Faisal
Dave P
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 05, 2001
Posts: 8
1. IE6 pre-release does not download/upgrade Java unless you custom install it.
2. IE6 will however utilize whatever jvm (java virtual machine) you already have installed on your machine.
3. If you don't custom install IE6, your only choice to get a new java version is that you 'may' be able to do it when you upgrade your OS.
4. Keep in mind that these 'upgrades' of the jvm are all extremely old (java 1.1), which is incidently what the whole lawsuit with Sun was about.
5. WindowsXP will come with IE6, but may or may not come with a JVM. Does anyone know? I suggest that anyone concerned about this go to the windows XP newsgroups and complain bitterly! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/newsgroups/default.asp
6. If WindowsXP doesn't come with a JVM, it doesn't appear likely that any of the OEM vendors (e.g. Dell, Compaq, etc) will bundle one in with the OS (even though it's free from Sun and will save their customers download time -- assuming they can figure out how to do it) as they are afraid of crossing Microsoft. Feel free to complain to them too.
Scott Hiett
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 05, 2001
Posts: 5
According to the link that was posted, as part of the settlement:
"Sun executives also said that even though Microsoft can't build Java into future versions of its Internet Explorer browser, it would not hurt the spread of client-side Java in the industry, citing a boom in Java on multiple devices such as PDAs and cell phones."
So, if this ends up hurting the .java world, Sun did it to themselves. I don't know what I would do. I just can't see myself doing C# and .net junk.
Sean MacLean
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2000
Posts: 621
"Put another log on the fire...."
What about the fact that Microsoft may end up with a monopoly in the browser wars?? What do you make of this.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010606/n05260410_2.html
Sean
Kirill NKaufmann
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 25, 2001
Posts: 46
well personally I think Bill Gate$ knows exactly what he is doing, and I am pretty sure windows will support java (if C# does not become more popular) which I doubt it will beucase as I have heard it supports windows only.
Kevin Yip
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 17, 2000
Posts: 110
As at this moment majority of enterprise server deployments are in J2EE and on a number of heterogenous platforms, it's very unlikely that Microsoft will not support java in IE6. Imagine what companies will think when a lot of websites will not work in IE6 - swithing to AOL Netscape or others which do the job, or file serious complaints that IE6 is monopolizing the market.
Of course the whole scenario will change if C# becomes popular, solves the platform dependency problems and gets sufficient market share in the server market. I don't know when this day will be or whether this day will really come, but at least not in the near future.
Rick Fortier
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Posts: 147
I disagree that user would switch to Netscape. They would probably stick with IE 5.
sharan basu
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 05, 2001
Posts: 12
As a programmer I allways prefer NETSCAPE than IE.we had a bad experience in using IE in web development.
David Rubin
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 1
Along these lines, we have come up with a new twist in the MS-IE6 saga with Java. We have a java servlet running on freebsd. No problems maintaining session by grabbing session id. This works in all netscape and all ie5.5 and below browsers. Upgrade to ie6 and the session id changes with every page. Therefore, you can login to an application but when the application goes to check your session id to maintain the session (remember who you are), you are not found and you are taken to the login page again. Answer: Cookies are accepted in the low security level only if securely issued. Setting the browser to accept ALL cookies solves this problem by allowing the session id to remain static during the session. Very strange!!! Or are we doing something wrong?
Manoj Pooleery
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2000
Posts: 35
Well, I had gone through almost all the replies posted here. One thing, as a developer, I have been working with Java for the past 2 years. While developing web-based applications, one of the routine checks that I did was compatability b/w both the browsers IE and Netscape. And for sure, whenever I wanted my program to be working smoothly, I had to test it with Netscape first, then only IE. IE lets you make mistakes and get away with it. But Netscape doesn't. Moreover, the Java Console and the Javascript console of Netscape are far better than the static messages that IE can produce. The 'pushing down the throat' strategy of Microsoft, has been continuing for quite a long time. I am looking forward to a world full of Apple Macs with integrated Java environment.
Manoj.
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
We have to live in the reality, and the reality is M$ is not going to die in any foreseeable future. Nobody, well almost nobody in this forum want to admit this fact.
Sorry, however, it is the fact.

JavaChina has been moved to http://javachina.developergroup.org/
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15300
    
    6

FYI - Microsoft Windows XP WILL NOT have the JVM pre-installed on it's initial commercial release. This information came straight from an MS rep who was trying to talk our company into upgrading to Windows XP (which we aren't).
But all is well, for we can install the Run Time Environment anyway. No big deal.

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Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
Here is an article about this very subject: http://www.crn.com/sections/Infrastructure/Infrastructure.asp?RSID=CRN&ArticleID=29957
Jim Burton
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 03, 2001
Posts: 3
Hi
I understand our company IS will be going Java Enterprise in a big way soon for Business to Business.
Anyway, can anybody explain why I cannot get to display geometric
unicode shapes '\u25A0' ,etc on my PC. I was hoping to make some form of graphical display using these Unicode characters. I have read Unicode article on this site but still confused as whether this is Java compiler thing or does my W95 not support this? I have tried in browser applet but no success. Just seems not to
print the shapes as indicated on Unicode chart sheet.
Hope to be joining you folks after Xmas with a Programmers certificate.
Regards
Java Devotee
Dave Van Even
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 19, 2001
Posts: 101
Originally posted by faisal mahmood:
.Net is not released yet, but I don't think it will be as big as J2ME+J2SE+J2EE. MS is far behind on this. Don't you realise J2 is improving very fast. Just look at the new feature of J2SE 1.4 to find out more.
Faisal

I have to disagree... We all know Java is technologically better for the moment and has more features. But having a better product doesn't mean a *thing* when your competing against Micro$oft!! Take a look at the history; Apple vs. Windows, IE vs. NS, etc...
Microsoft has been jelling and shouting about .NET for 2 years now and up to date it isn't available. (except for beta's) They have done great marketing.. compared to that, SUN's marketing is somewhat mediocre. Luckely there is an entire population doing java marketing. (Take a look at sites like javaworld.com , onjava.com, javaranch.com)

In conclusion I would say that WE are the ones who can make the difference... Just keep on working in Java, never do any .NET work, tell everyone about Java's superiority.. in the end, YOUR project manager at work has to decide what to use for solution and they will realise the support for Java has a good reason
Dave
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Add another one from my experience: Borland C++ vs MS Visual C++.
However, variety and competition are always good. I think that neither M$ nor $UN should dominate the world.
... Neither JavaRanch, nor JavaChina.

JavaChina has been moved to http://javachina.developergroup.org/
 
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