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The value of the certifications

benjik wang
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 06, 2006
Posts: 10
just my $0.02.

Based on my experience, they have zero (if not, closed to zero) value in job market.

I took them only because they are free (free vouchers from employer or beta)
and I think it is a good chance to force myself to learn. And in turn they do help me perfom better in job interviews.
Antonio Emilio Di Matteo
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Posts: 14
I completely disagree with you, for my experience of course: certification helped my to have a job, to have more knowledge and to wear my cv in a very elegant mode, can you have a job interview with a t-shirt?

There is a great difference between a certified programmer and a not certified programmer: a lot of time a not certified programmer doesn't know libraries, API, JVM mechanisms (SCJP) or beans rules, policies, ..(SCBCD), patterns, design, approaches (SCEA).. they can work using their experience (could be good or not).

Of course you can have the same knowledge of a not certified programmer/developer/architect, but If I have two cv and I have to choice only one, I will have a look on the clothings, and believe me, a certified cv have elegant clothings ;-)

But this is only a point of view. Take it easy.

Regards


SCJP5<br />SCBCD5<br />SCEA5<br /> <br />---------<br />Bill Shannon: "Everything is a compromise. That's what you learn. We're always trading off content and date and resources. Nothing we do is ever perfect, because if it was perfect, it would be late, and being late would make it not perfect."
Anderson Fonseca
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 05, 2004
Posts: 126
Some peoples are very good programmers no certified, and some with sun certified with no pratical knowledgment in development system writing a poor code.

I think, pursue a certificate or not, just no matter when you found the right professional, but what your criteria for search a professional in the market? Do you hire a person with no graduated, just because he told you "i know java"? and when exist 1000 resumes to fill 3 opportunities? What are you do?
[ February 22, 2008: Message edited by: Anderson Fonseca ]

Anderson Fonseca :: Brazil<br />SCJA 1.0, SCJP 1.4, SCWCD 1.4, SCBCD 1.3, SCDJWS, SCEA(I), SCEA 5 (I,II,III)
Cameron Wallace McKenzie
author and cow tipper
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Aug 26, 2006
Posts: 4968

If only as a tool to motivate you to learn, then I'd say they have value.

-Cameron McKenzie
Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 39547
    
  27
This subject has been debated over and over again. A search through the old posts will find those discussions. The bottom line is that it depends completely on the job market we're talking out. There are plenty of places where they count for nothing, while there are other places where they count for a lot. Without mentioning which market we're talking about the discussion will be fruitless (apart from the value they may have for furthering one's personal education).
[ February 22, 2008: Message edited by: Ulf Dittmer ]

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jeremias lacanienta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2006
Posts: 60

Based on my experience, they have zero (if not, closed to zero) value in job market. I took them only because they are free[/QB]


you're a funny guy dude. you continuously take something you consider worthless because it's free. you're belief is against common sense.


jeremias lacanienta<br />scea5/scwcd1.4/scwcd/scmad/scjp1.4/scjp1.1/scja/rhcja
chris zielinski
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Posts: 41
One of the unfortunate aspects of software industry is that it is still hard to answer what exactly a software architect does. How much of the role is based on technology how much is based on business skills.

Many companies simply cannot afford to have a full time architect so the skills an architect possesses in reality is a lot different than the skills an architect "should" possess.

IMHO any course/certification that provides structure to help answer these questions is very much worth it. The SCEA exam forces one to think beyond the developer role into solving problems in a conceptual fashion.

Name any other architect certification available in the industry for java technologies? I feel SCEA has real value because of Part 2,3. If the exam were limited to Part 1 then it has no value at all.

A Microsoft architect exam actually has multiple rounds of face to face interview to judge not just technical skills but also presentation and communication skills!. Now that is a true test of skill !!
[ February 22, 2008: Message edited by: chris zielinski ]
Andrew Monkhouse
author and jackaroo
Marshal Commander

Joined: Mar 28, 2003
Posts: 11278
    
  59

While this discussion can be interesting, I don't think it fits in with the reason we have this forum (to discuss the SCEA certification). I have therefore moved it to the Jobs Discussion forum.

Regards, Andrew


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Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 29233
    
138

Originally posted by jeremias lacanienta:
you're a funny guy dude. you continuously take something you consider worthless because it's free. you're belief is against common sense.

Actually, I do this as well. I took the BrainBench certs when they were free. I think they were useful to see where I stand technically (especially while in college and right after.) When they aren't free, the cost/benefit ratio changes. And I consider other things to be a better investment of my money - like computer books.

And the original poster said he doesn't think that certs have much value in the job market. Not that they don't have other types of value - like learning.


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Frank Lu
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Posts: 23
Originally posted by benjik wang:
just my $0.02.

Based on my experience, they have zero (if not, closed to zero) value in job market.

I took them only because they are free (free vouchers from employer or beta)
and I think it is a good chance to force myself to learn. And in turn they do help me perfom better in job interviews.



Certifications had definitely helped me to preform better in job interviews, especially in my job(working in a consulting firm, I have to interview with a different engagement manager for every project).

Beside that, you will definitely perform better at your jobs.


SCJP<br />SCBCD <br />SCJD - 97.5%
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Frank Lu:

Beside that, you will definitely perform better at your jobs.


There is no evidence to support this statement.

--Mark
Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 29233
    
138

Originally posted by Frank Lu:
Beside that, you will definitely perform better at your jobs.

Isn't it the studying and learning that helps you perform better at your job. Certification may be a motivator for this (for some people.) I fail to see how the physical act of taking an exam makes you better at your job.
arulk pillai
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 31, 2007
Posts: 3216
This topic is very subjective and also demand for certification can vary demographically. Where I am working certification has never been that popular but there are countries where it is very popular. In my view one needs to weigh up the pros and cons in his/her own situation for example:


  • Demographics: Is it sought after and recognized in your region/country?
  • Will it boost my confidence and improve my knowledge and chances of finding a good job? Will it be more useful for people with little or no experience to standout from the competition compared to experienced.
  • How long does it take for me to prepare for the certification? Am I better off spending this time in gaining some hands-on experience in some of the popular frameworks/technologies like Spring, Hibernate, JSF, Ajax, JMS, Webservice etc. There are so many more to get your hands on.
  • Would I be motivated to do self-taught project, tutorials and self-education without having any end result in mind like certification etc?
  • Would I be better off doing one certification to kick start my career in an entry level position and then leverage off my experience and commercial accomplishments to fast tarck it?



  • My personal preference is to gain more hands-on experience and simultaneously self-educate myself on the core concepts relating to these technologies without having to rely on certification.
    [ February 24, 2008: Message edited by: arulk pillai ]

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    jess Chiu
    Greenhorn

    Joined: Jan 29, 2002
    Posts: 20
    Will SCJD will help me?

    Dear all, I am recently consider to come back to IT area, already gain degree and SCJP a few year before, Now while searching for job, I plan to take SCJD exam. anyone have idea, could this exam help me to get an interview. Thanks in advance!
    arulk pillai
    Author
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 31, 2007
    Posts: 3216
    Will SCJD will help me?


    Did SCJP help you? Check the Job Adevertisements in your area to see if prospective employers are specifically asking for certifications?
    [ February 24, 2008: Message edited by: arulk pillai ]
    jess Chiu
    Greenhorn

    Joined: Jan 29, 2002
    Posts: 20
    Did SCJP help you?


    I haven't try yet! 4-5 years before,it helped nothing because the market very low. Now I know the market much better, so decide to give another try.

    Just want to come here gather more information. then do some preparation.

    I thought study SCJD might help me two things
    1. update my skills, to catch up
    2. may increase the job chance

    How do you guys think? :roll:
    Frank Lu
    Greenhorn

    Joined: Nov 03, 2006
    Posts: 23
    Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:


    There is no evidence to support this statement.

    --Mark


    well, this depends on how much you know the system already. if you do your certification just to prove your knowledge, they you probably won't gain much.

    But if you are using the certification as a learning experience then you would definitely gain a lot from it. I am currently working on my SCEA 5 certification just for the sick of learning the Java EE 5 architecture.
    arulk pillai
    Author
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 31, 2007
    Posts: 3216
    Jess, Most of the applications built using Java are web based and it really helps if you could get your hands on Servlets, JSPs, Tomcat Application Server, Spring, Hibernate etc. So SCWCD might be another option. Work on some tutotorials or self-taught projects using these sought after technologies and also mention them in your resume. You can download all these for free. You could work on a self-taught project(2) and add something like this under your profile in your resume. This can also increase your confidence.

    All depends on how you make your resume stand out from your competition who are similarly qualified. Certification is one aspect to it but certification alone is not enough. You can also prove your well-rounded ability in being a self-starter, quick learner, good interpersonal and communication skills, adaptability etc from other jobs you held.

  • 3-month hands-on experience in using popular open-source frameworks like Spring, Hibernate along with Servlets, JSP, SQL, MySQL and Tomcat due to self-taught web based library management system application. Source code available on request.
  • Good understanding of UNIX, SQL and n-tier JEE based web application development with model-view-controller architecture.
  • 2 year part-time experience as a sales-staff in a dynamic team environment where I demonstrated flexible and adaptable approach, communicated effectively with the customers & staff, learned things quickly and took on new challenges with the �can do� attitude and prioritized tasks.
  • Demonstrated my ability and passion to learn technologies quickly through my university assignments like online restaurant management system using Java, Servlet, JSP, MySQL and Tomcat.




  • Also have an objective section to illustarte that you are changing careers

    Objective:


    I am changing careers from being a "Blah" to a challenging entry-level developer role in Java/JEE based software development and it is my passion in Java/JEE sustains me in this transition. I have gained Java certification and also gained hands on experience through self-taught projects.........


    Good luck.
    jess Chiu
    Greenhorn

    Joined: Jan 29, 2002
    Posts: 20
    arulk: Thanks so much for your kind information. I checked your website and download CV and interview questions, when I try to download the tutorial, the link not work.

    By the way, how do you think the value of certification in Sydney. As when I check your website, found you are aslo in this area.

    Thanks again for your kind help

    Jess
    Tina Ma
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 29, 2007
    Posts: 198
    SCJP helped me get my first job(I think so....). A certification tells the employer that you are devoted to the technology and strive for self-betterment. Besides, preparing for certifications made me learn so many things which I have never used at work, but have helped me to get a better knowledgable decission on other related problem scenarios.
    But its also true that certification without actual work experience have no value. when you are already working on an enterprise application, a SCWCD certification will help you do your job better, and also increase the actual quality/value of your skills from the employer's perspective.


    Tina
    SCJP 1.4, SCWCD 1.4
    arulk pillai
    Author
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 31, 2007
    Posts: 3216
    It does help, but certification alone is not enough to standout from your competition. In Sydney employers do not specifically ask for it but can help
    Sue Pillai
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 04, 2004
    Posts: 89
    Originally posted by benjik wang:

    And in turn they do help me perform better in job interviews.


    I think you have made two conflicting statements here. The fact that the certifications help you perform better in interviews itself means that the certification is of value to you.

    Your interviewer might not offer you a higher pay looking at your certification, but I think he/she does know that you know your stuff well.


    Sue

    SCJP 1.2
    SCWCD 1.4
    SCBCD 5.0
    Rahul Juneja
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Aug 03, 2002
    Posts: 425
    Really cool question and the best answer to this will be you will never come to know the value of certifications until you go for one yourself.

    Just to answer your question on the other end. It helps more on the learning side of the new technology, rather then just adding to your resume for jobs.


    Rahul Juneja
    ThoughtClicks - http://techlabs.thoughtclicks.com
    Shantanu Puranik
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 10, 2004
    Posts: 67
    I would echo Sreerupa and Rahul.

    Despite having 6 years gap after graduation and education background not related to computers, I made it to my first IT job.
    Credit definitely goes to Sun Certification curriculum.

    I enjoyed learning Java when I first read Java books but I started loving it during the preparation time for certification exam.
    I can still remember how confidant I was while answering the interview.

    Since then I never experienced my interview lasting more than 30 min.
    Either I know the answer or I don't.

    At workplace I found, lesser time is required to write code (as I can easily recall APIs), more waitage being given to my technical suggestions /thoughts, and later, an opportunity to lead a team.
    This is more obvious when people with & around you do not have the certificate.


    --- Shantanu
    Anamika Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 28, 2002
    Posts: 66
    I found it doesnt help much in India to be certified. If you do well in the interview, you are through. But I hear certifications have more value in the US..not too sure.
    Whenever I have to select a candidate, if he is certified, probability that he will have his basics clear is more. I can say, I look at him more positively
     
     
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