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Java Job Market @ US due to recent turmoil

Ramesh Srinivasan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 17, 2008
Posts: 35
Hi Ranchers,

Recent Financial turmoil triggered in US/Global.
How is java jobs billing rate/opportunities in US for midlevel developers say about 6-8 yrs of exp hand?

Please throw some light on this. Appreciate your suggestions.

~Ramesh.


SCJP 5.0 93%<br /> <br />"We are what we repeatedly do , then excellence is not an action it is an Habit" Aristotle
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

Originally posted by Ramesh Srinivasan:
Recent Financial turmoil triggered in US/Global.


No one knows the impact of the financial turmoil. There are predictions, but it hasn't been happening long enough to know what is real, and what is speculation.

Hang in a month and check again.
Billy Tsai
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1297
where would you guys pick NYC or London CBD for a java job?


BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
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Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 15951
    
  19

Locally, the job market all but died back in June anyway and there's been significant downward pressure on billing rates, just as there was back in 2002.

Just about every major corporate victim - and purchaser of the recent financial debacle has a significant presence in town, and I'm expecting to see mass layoffs as the purchasers "leverage their synergies", but it hasn't happened yet.

The purchasing companies by and large run significant facilities in Bangalore and other offshore locations, I expect that as redundant positions are eliminated and the budgets get tightened to pay for the acquisitions, a lot of work will dry up and much of what remains will leave this country.

I won't venture a guess at the ultimate result, but I'm not optimistic. Outside of the financial industries, things have been relatively good up to now, but the current sound and fury is threatening to trickle down - or more likely flood down - to the national economy as a whole and from there out to the rest of the world. We've already seen oil prices take hits.

Ask again in 6 months.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Joe Ess
Bartender

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 8836
    
    7

European banks are getting hammered by the same financial problems that the US market is having. There probably isn't a safe port from this storm.


"blabbing like a narcissistic fool with a superiority complex" ~ N.A.
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Sri Anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2005
Posts: 392
There should be Global financial institution/Bnk that must regulate as effects of the financial criss is far beyond one single country
Marc Peabody
pie sneak
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Posts: 4727

Originally posted by Tim Holloway:
Locally, the job market all but died back in June anyway and there's been significant downward pressure on billing rates, just as there was back in 2002.

You might want to be more specific about what "locally" means, Tim.


A good workman is known by his tools.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Both the NYC and Boston markets are quite strong right now. Whether or not this will hold in 6 months is unknown.

--Mark
Sunil Chandurkar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 09, 2008
Posts: 37
I hope you are right Mark. I am looking for a programming job in NYC. The recent economic news is very disturbing to say the least.
Hope the $700 billion bailout works. I think the govt. should pump more money in the economy by helping house-owners with their mortgage payments.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Tim,

Locally, the job market all but died back in June anyway and there's been significant downward pressure on billing rates, just as there was back in 2002.

This point leads me to ask for your opinion about one "strange" apparent behavior of US (and many foreign as well) recruiting companies, which is continuously posting ads for the very same positions, even when it has been fulfilled (according to the negative feedback you have after having applied).
I don't speak about commercial sites like M*****r which have publication packages, so pre-paid bundled offers are published whatever the recruiting process result, but rather about job boards like C****sL**t where publication is free.

The possibles reasons I could see are IMHO:

_ Recruiters are especially picky in hard times, looking for the brightest 5%-10% best ones exclusively because they know crisis will bring in more candidates and the very best so the most expensive will have been laid off by other companies which have to reduce their expenses. So they keep on posting until they get an exceptionally excellent candidate for average wages (who will of course bail out as soon as market gets better, but who cares on short term?).

_ Jobs postings are fake, a so said dynamic and successful company hires, while looser companies lay off, so pretending to hire is kinda cheap purely marketing advertisement.

_ When consulting companies are involved Jobs postings are always fake anyway, since the purpose is only to get a candidate's references so as to sell them consulting services later.

_ Any other possible reason for which I would like to have Ranchers' opinion.

In fact when your resume is good enough to continuously attract many recruiters but when your application to a position always ends with "other candidates were a better fit" while posts for the very same position you were rejected and which was "fulfilled" continue to be posted, you wonder at one point whether it is you or something is wrong in the system...

Of course I have my own opinion, but I would like to have other Ranchers' feelings about this point.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
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Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
H
I don't speak about commercial sites like M*****r which have publication packages, so pre-paid bundled offers are published whatever the recruiting process result, but rather about job boards like C****sL**t where publication is free.


A comment from the moderator...

We're not fooled by clever name disguises like "M*****r". Fortunately I would draw a distinction because in this case you're not talking about company so much as the service. We haven't had a problem with discussion of products and services so those are still allowed here. While talking about an individual recruiter or recruiting firm may be questionable (to borrow from Justice Stewart, I'll know it when I see it), certainly talking about a job board or similar service is permissible.

--Mark
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Mark,

We're not fooled by clever name disguises like "M*****r". Fortunately I would draw a distinction because in this case you're not talking about company so much as the service. We haven't had a problem with discussion of products and services so those are still allowed here. While talking about an individual recruiter or recruiting firm may be questionable (to borrow from Justice Stewart, I'll know it when I see it), certainly talking about a job board or similar service is permissible.

I didn't intend to "fool" anyone with such a lame trick, only to comply with JavaRanch's policy about companies' names by giving anyway some likely names as an example to justify my point.

Everyone has recognized "Monster" and "CraigsList", it is fine if we can cite such job boards without restriction since they shouldn't be as potentially polemical as consulting companies' names for example.

I still would like to have other Ranchers' opinion about my point.

Best regards.
Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 30068
    
149

Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Everyone has recognized "Monster" and "CraigsList", it is fine if we can cite such job boards without restriction since they shouldn't be as potentially polemical as consulting companies' names for example.

I still would like to have other Ranchers' opinion about my point.

What's the disagreement? It sounds like Mark is saying you can refer to Monster and CraigsList without the asterisks since they are being discussed as job boards rather than companies. Using the asterisks makes it look they aren't allowed. That's not the case as far as i know.

Now if you were discussing working at Monster or CraigsList, it wouldn't be allowed. Of course, it wouldn't be allowed with the asterisks either. Using asterisks makes it look like you think you are doing something you aren't supposed to. Which is awkard - why do something if you don't think it's allowed?


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Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Jeanne,

Now if you were discussing working at Monster or CraigsList, it wouldn't be allowed. Of course, it wouldn't be allowed with the asterisks either. Using asterisks makes it look like you think you are doing something you aren't supposed to. Which is awkard - why do something if you don't think it's allowed?

I wasn't sure of that, all I remembered was that stating explicit companies' names was forbidden, so I used this compromise to refer to these job boards by precaution so as not to violate the rule.

Now that Mark has clearly stated that citing job boards names is authorized, this point must be over.

I still would liken my real point to be discussed by Ranchers.

Best regards.
Imran Jack
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 31
Cause for Credit Crunch- Outsourcing

The upper-class became extremely rich because of outsourcing. The input costs were significantly reduced and profits went sky-rocketing. Now, money is to be invested and cannot be static and un-arguably best investment in world is Real-Estate. So, rich people invested money in banks which in turn gave money to middle/lower class. Since money was surplus, loans were given to virtually anyone without checking their credentials. People were aware that this is WRONG, but surplus money cannot be static and has to be invested.

The middle/lower class was to work-hard and repay this money to banks, which in turns pays back to investors. NOW COUNTRY'S ELITE DID NOT RELAIZE THAT WHILE GENERATING HUGE PROFITS THOUGH OUTSOURCING, THEY HAVE TAKE AWAY OPPORTUNITY FROM MIDDLE/LOWER CLASS TO PAY BACK !!! without adequate jobs in market, these people could not pay back to banks.

THIS IS THE CAUSE.... EFEECTS THAT ALL OF YOU KNOW WELL
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Imran Jack:
Cause for Credit Crunch- Outsourcing


I haven't seen a single creditable economist or financial titan making this argument.

Besides, if it were true we would have had similar credit crunch issues anytime there were productivity increases (e.g. assembly line, automation, technology, software) but historically there hasn't been this type of financial problem resulting from prior productivity gains. In short, historical evidence does not support this claim.

--Mark
Edvins Reisons
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 11, 2006
Posts: 364
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:

This point leads me to ask for your opinion about one "strange" apparent behavior of US (and many foreign as well) recruiting companies, which is continuously posting ads for the very same positions, even when it has been fulfilled (according to the negative feedback you have after having applied).


I ran into a similar case recently (worse, it was/is a direct ad by the company). One clue that I got from them during the interview is that they have a dozen people with that job description.

Welcome to Continuous Hiring, a new Agile practice
[ October 06, 2008: Message edited by: Edvins Reisons ]
Sunil Chandurkar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 09, 2008
Posts: 37
Originally posted by Imran Jack:
Cause for Credit Crunch- Outsourcing



Most irrational thing I have ever heard about this Financial Crisis.
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 15951
    
  19

I believe that the original reason for forbidding the explicit naming of companies is that the JavaRanch is a neutral platform, and besides they might sue us if they don't like what they hear. In that respect, the M-place and the C-place are no different than any other company.

I'd personally rather know more about companies instead of less, but we live in litigious times.

As far as the causes of the current implosion, it's pretty generally accepted that there's no one single villain. It was certainly avoidable - the signs were already there when the number of people buying houses for use other than primary residences skyrocketed, and we all know it was idiotic to sell people mortgages based on the premise that their incomes were going to go up and interest rates wouldn't. But those are only 2 facets of a very large and bumpy, ahem, diamond,
Marcel Wentink
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 19, 2008
Posts: 157
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
_ Any other possible reason for which I would like to have Ranchers' opinion.


One reason for fake adverts I can add is immigration laws. Companies are, in my country at least, only allowed to hire a non EU when they can prove they cannot find anyone fit for the position. Hence they demand a combination of qualities hardly anyone could have. Let it there in the employment registration for a year, and then tell immigration affairs they have no alternative then hiring an immigrant. Which they then hope would have lower salary costs.
Joe Ess
Bartender

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 8836
    
    7

Originally posted by Sunil Chandurkar:
Most irrational thing I have ever heard about this Financial Crisis.


I've heard some crazy talk. On another board someone was maintaining that it was all they hype and regulation over global warming that was causing the crisis.
People have their pet peeves and have to trot them out every chance they get, I guess.
Thamayanthi Guhan
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: 8
Hi,

What is current situtation in UK and US form Java Devlopers?

Currently I am planning to move from India to UK to work through tier 1

Thanks
Thamayanthi
Chris Johnson
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 14
Tim, Eric, Imran, Marcell

This is like the “Grapes of Wrath” all over again. Only this time it is the exploitation of the American Java Programmer. Is this really our country, where very qualified programmers are not getting jobs because of outsourcing and this recruiter model. The recruiters are outsourcing the recruiting and now, not only everybody's brother and cousin are recruiters but also many from India as well. I usually get about 3-4 calls from recruiters in India trying to represent me for a Texas State job that comes open here in town that is located about two blocks away. I have worked hard to develop my Java skills, work hard for clients that expect to get their money's worth, and some recruiter who made a few phone calls should have his whole yearly salary payed for from my sweat and brain busting. What is up with that? These jobs need to go to American workers and somebody somewhere needs to put some stops on this recruiting model and outsourcing practices. There are no countries I know of that I can just show up and start working for free. Someone needs to speak up! I've been to the capitol in Austin to talk to my State Representatives. Please do the same. I believe this little secret is a major cause of our recent financial turmoil.

Chris Johnson
SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCBCD3.0 SCDWS, SCEA, SCMAD, ( hope to submit SCJD by this weekend.:>)
John King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 165
Chris Johnson wrote:Tim, Eric, Imran, Marcell
... The recruiters are outsourcing the recruiting and now, not only everybody's brother and cousin are recruiters but also many from India as well. I usually get about 3-4 calls from recruiters in India trying to represent me for a Texas State job that comes open here in town that is located about two blocks away...


They are using US phone numbers, and sometimes hire someone without Indian accent. Chris, You may need to call your governor.
Chris Johnson
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 14
I have been looking for a good J2SE/J2EE/J2ME contract for sometime. I get many calls a day with jobs from all around the country. Today I have had about 8 calls for different jobs. Every one was about the same. These are all jobs for companies in the USA. The conversation goes like this. I ask some questions about the job and the requirements. Then I ask: “Where are you located?”. Most say New Jersey or California. I ask again, “Where are you physically located, India? They say yes. If they say no, I next ask , “Are you a green card holder?” They usually say “No, H1B visa”. My question..... Why do I get so many calls from H1B visa holders wanting to submit me to jobs located here in the USA and take the money off the top? Is this really legal? I doubt the legality of this and wonder what loopholes are being taken advantage of to let this happen.

Chris Johnson
SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCBCD-EE5 SCDWS, SCEA, SCMAD
Fritz Guerilus
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 20, 2009
Posts: 65
I'm located in the US job market and I'm watching the US job boards.
Despite the daily headlines of recovery here OR recovery there, the economy is still in a recession.

But after reading this forum, which started a year ago, it seems that recruiters are tightening their grip on the job market, which they always do in a recession.

Recruiters have been doing these practices for years. Flooding job boards with the same position, and 'resume gathering' to fill their databases. There is more competition for recruiters to position themselves for a job market rebound. They're waiting the job market to slowly thaw out, and then pounce.

It is surprising to hear of offshore recruiting companies getting involved.
Could it be there is the outsourcing of recruiting jobs that look for outsourced jobs, IRONIC?

It leaves the job searchers in a difficult position in a job market with:
-a glut of candidates
-Hiring managers looking for candidates with a good combination of skills that are "cost-effective" to fill the position
-Recruiters with huge databases of resumes and competitive recruiter fees.

We could talk to our congressmen, or debate the legality of these practices, but I think we should also focus our energies on alternative job search methods.

I suggest everyone should do their best to 'network' to rely a little less on this recruiter system.
The recruiter system can't be entirely eliminated, or avoided. I'm not advocating that because it is an important part of the job world.

I'd like to start a thread on the good ways to network to look for jobs as another alternative for job searches. If there already is such a thread please let me know.
-thanks


SCJP 6.0
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
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