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Endangered Fish Policy May Have Cost Firefighters' Lives

Greg Harris
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Joined: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 1012
okay, so where do we draw the line between "endangered fish" and human lives?
click for story


what?
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
A) It's our own fault for endangering the fish in the first place
B) A couple of lives out of 6 Billion, big whoop
C) It's our own fault we have to protect forests now. We have overdeveloped so much, that we have to start worrying about forest fires. Oh well, it is what we have come to.
Ronnie Johnson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 106
Agree
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
Hardy har, me worthy mess mate. You are my good right wing, you are.
Shama Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 14, 2000
Posts: 185

A) It's our own fault for endangering the fish in the first place
B) A couple of lives out of 6 Billion, big whoop
C) It's our own fault we have to protect forests now. We have overdeveloped so much, that we have to start worrying about forest fires. Oh well, it is what we have come to.

Come on, since when is a human's life cheaper than an animal's.
I am all for environmental protection and animal protection. I wish people would get more sincere about decreasing pollution.
But this waste of human life to save the animals is crazy.
Yes, humans should stop polluting the air and the water.
But we forget that animal extinction has occurred for centuries.
New animals come into existence and some of the old ones become extinct due to changes in nature.
Causing human life to be wasted for the sake of saving some fish is stupid. I love fish and all the other animals but we forget the 'survival of the fittest' theory.
There is a reason we humans have survived so long - it's because we have a sophisticated brain. It's true we should use these brains to make our habitat (the earth) safer for us and all others who live here. But we shouldn't be as dumb to start killing ourselves to correct our past mistakes.

Shama
[This message has been edited by Shama Khan (edited August 01, 2001).]


Shama
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
You must realize that different people have different values. I believe birds are the highest order of everything, but that's just me. I would not mind dying for another animal's life, but that's not the issue we're discussing here. What happened, was a couple people died in a forest fire because other people couldn't get the water needed to stop the fire because the water was going to be taken from a source that was preserving animal life. I don't like it at all.
- People died
- Part of the forest was burned down
If they did take the water, this would have happened
- (Probably) no people dead
- (Probably) less forest would be burned down
- The fishies lives would be more endangered
As I see it, it is a lose lose situation. I really don't know what I would have done. All I was stating was that the precursing events that lead to the situation were not smart on our part. But we can't change the past.
Greg Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 1012
i am all for preservation of life (human & animal) but sometimes common sense has to take control! if i were the pilot of the helicoptor, i would have taken the water from the river and saved my fellow firefighters and worried about my boss later.
sure, just 4 firefighters died... that is part of their job, right? well, 2 of the firefighters were teenaged girls (18, 19)... now what does everyone think?
Paul Stevens
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 17, 2001
Posts: 2823
It is doubtful that the helicoptor would have picked up any fish let alone endagered fish. The sound of the rotors would have scared them.
As for "protecting" the forest. That is why forest fires are so bad any more. The Forest service puts out every little fire for years on end. The dead wood builds the forest gets overgrown. A fire starts the wind blows and the forest fire turns into a fire storm.
[This message has been edited by Paul Stevens (edited August 01, 2001).]
Ronnie Johnson
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Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 106
Originally posted by Shama Khan:
Come on, since when is a human's life cheaper than an animal's.
Not cheaper equal.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Children die every minute of every hour because they can't get clean water and/or food. Who cares about less than a dozen guys who aren't smart enough to run when they see fire?
Greg Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 1012
"the truth..." did you read the article? do you know what happened? or are you just plain ignorant? from your comment, i suspect the latter.
they requested water for 0530 (5:30a.m.) but they were promised to have helicopter support by 1000 that morning... for some reason, the "higher authority" did not meet until after 1200 that day. the helicopter finally got there around 1500, but by then it was too late. the team of 21 (twenty-one) firefighters were cornered by the fire... they all used their "survival tents" and 4 succumbed to the intense heat. the were NOT "less than a dozen guys who aren't smart enough to run when they see fire..." as you said.
they WERE 21 people (men and women) who were BRAVE ENOUGH to face the fire and fight it! unfortunately, 4 died protecting your world. i would like to see your sorry a** face a fire (well over 1000f degrees) and risk your life to save the forest, animals, people's homes... all the while expecting to have support from a helicopter that was less than 30 minutes away, only to be left to die a horrible death because of a few fish that are freaking "endangered."
do you have what it takes to do that job... i doubt it.
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
If the point is to preserve life, I would think that preserving an endangered species' life would be more important than 4 out of 6 billion human lives, a couple of trees,and a couple of squirrels. It seems to me that the people who sent the firefighters out didn't think about what resources were available. It might have been smart to plan out getting water from the closest water resource available for their use instead of assuming people would see it their way and let them use the closest water resource (which was inhibited by endangered fish).
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Conrad, Ronnie, theTruth,
You guys have got to be kidding. I hope you remember your disdain for the fire service the next time you or a family member is in an auto accident, or a house fire, or any other situation requiring fire rescue service.
A wildfire is about the worst type of fire you could ever fight. The winds and the plentiful fuel source make them incredibly dangerous. These brave people, probably mostly volunteers, risked their lives in the name of protecting the lives and property of others, not to mention preserving the wilderness and wild life. And you people, who probably don't have anything near what it takes to perform the job, have the audacity to look down on those serving you.
Remember, these were people with mother's and father's, spouses, and children. They were young people who had their whole lives to look forward to. They were some child's daddy who won't be coming home, ever. I'm sure anyone of you would have been more than happy to personally deliver the news to their families. At least you could tell them no fish were hurt. F@#$ the fish.
I am one of those people who will show up when you place your call for help. And even though I know how worthless you think we are, I will never-the-less put my life on the line for you and your family. I will do all in my power to get you out of whatever horrible situation you find yourself in. I will do the utmost to protect your life and property, and those of your loved ones.
I've gone into burning buildings, pulled people from the wreckage of automobiles, dealt with the armed and dangerous and crazy, gotten up close and personal with blood and other bodily fluids, and witnessed death up close, to name a few. And you know what I get paid for this? Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. All I get is the rare thanks from people when we manage to save a few of their possessions from a devestating fire, or when we help them through some traumatic situation. This is what makes it worth doing. Far more often than not though we deal with the people like yourselves.
The tragedy is that because of people like yourselves, a beurocracy was put in place that ended up killing these four brave people. This burocracy kep the helicopters on the ground when the fire fighters in the field had every reason to believe that their much needed water was on their way. All the fire fighters new is that the due to this burocracy, the fire they had fought hard to contain was now wild and out of control and threatening their lives. All because the ignorant among us thought that it was *possible* that a few endangered fish *might* get caught in the scoops.
You've all got me fired up now and I need to go and relax. I think maybe I'll go fishing.
Jason
Greg Harris
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Joined: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 1012
Thank you, Jason... for your service, and your comments!
by the way, i am going fishing this weekend.
Ronnie Johnson
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Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 106
You seem to not understand what I said. I have no disdain for fire fighters, but I do have disdain for your incompetence Jason. I value all life the same. If there is a bug in my house I do not kill it I put it in a tissue and put it outside. I think firefighters are very noble people that risk their lives to save us and our home, and they are drastically underpaid. All I am saying is that life is life, and maybe you should try to understand this before you have the arrogance to elevate the human race so far above everything else. It is all connected on the Earth one to another, all is vital for the survial of the earth. Nothing is so much better than the other.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Firefighters Tom L. Craven, 30, Karen L. Fitzpatrick, 18, Devin A Weaver, 21,
and Jessica L. Johnson, 19, burned to death while cowering under protective
tents near the Chewuch River

Tom L. Craven, 30

Washington Firefighter Laid to Rest
ROSLYN, Wash. � Tom Craven's hearse was
an antique fire truck and his funeral cortege
Saturday was a string of pumpers, tankers and
green Forest Service rigs.
The career Forest Service firefighter was among
four crew members who died this week when a blaze exploded in the
northern Cascade Range. It was the country's deadliest wildfire since 1994.
"By all standards, Tom Craven ranks at the top. He had the biggest heart and
the biggest smile," Roger Krening, his former high school football coach, told
1,500 mourners at a memorial service.
Craven, 30, who was married and had a 7-year-old daughter and 4-year-old
son, began working for the Forest Service in 1990. He was assigned to the
Wenatchee National Forest in 1993, and was a squad boss, in charge of a
five-member crew.


As for their incompetence:
An investigation into the
deaths of four young firefighters has found no
evidence that inexperience was to blame.
Instead, there was simply no time for the
firefighters to escape the inferno, a Forest Service
official said Monday.

Btw, they followed their training and took shelter in their emergency tents in a rocky area overlooking a road, normally a fairly safe place, but the inferno was just too great. So where was the incompetence? Did you know that the chemicals given off from burning can, as they fill in the air, get heated to the point where they will burst into flames? Basically the very air itself exploding into flames in a very brief moment? How could they stop this?
Your sermon about life being life and not killing the bug in your house is all well and good when you can say that safely behind a keyboard. I absolutely love animals and grew up around them my whole life. My pets are like my family. I can't even bring myself to hunt. However, people are a higher form of life, and even if you don't buy that, all animals take care of their own. I somehow don't think the fish are having this debate right now, and that's what separates us.
There should be absolutely no discussions as to whether to save the lives of the firefighters or to protect some fish. Anybody who even has a dilemma with this probably needs to take a good long look at things, because there is something very wrong there. I can't believe someone can hold such little regard for human life. Can't you feel compassion for the lives that have been shattered? Because really what you are showing is a total lack of feeling and compassion for the victims and the lives of those they touched, and the utmost disrespect for all those who serve.
In the end all we can really hope to do is the best that we can with the life we've been given. Preferably we will get through it leaving the world a better place than how we found it. Btw, what do you really do about your convictions? Do you think not killing a bug in your house is really helping our planet? Giving to a charity is too easy. Why don't you get out and put your convictions into practice, instead of just talking about it.

[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited August 02, 2001).]
Greg Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 1012
well, i started this, so i feel like i should step in here and give you a hand, Jason... but i do not think i could put it as well as you have.
i really cannot believe some people can act like they have such little regard for human life. true, each and every life is just as important as the other, but fish are not dependant on their parents... Craven's 7-year-old daughter and 4-year-old son were dependant on their daddy to feed them. sure, their mother can take care of them, but being a single parent is not easy. especially when the other parent died such a horrible death.
Ronnie Johnson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 106
Thank for implying that I have never done any volunteer work, it shows that you can make rational deductions. I have never been part of habitat for humanity , I have never monitored a telephone crisis line I just sit behind my keyboard all day long. Well Mr. High and Mighty that is better than everyone because he is a prefect fire fighter and good citizen, I feel like the world is short changed for not having as many arrogant people like you. Just because I say that lives are equal does not mean I hold human life in low regard, it just means that I hold all lives equally. I know since you are always doing good you must be typing this as you are flying off to battle some sort of evil, so I guess I will stop typing.
[This message has been edited by Ronnie Johnson (edited August 02, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ronnie Johnson (edited August 02, 2001).]
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
Jason, you ARE a fool. Ronnie here didn't say the firefighters were incompetent, he said YOU are. Wow, learn to read.
You aren't very modest about your accomplishments, which makes me suspicious. I know for a fact that Ronnie and I have both done a hell of a lot of volunteering for our age: 15.
I don't think you, Jason, or you Greg, realize that some people have different values. Personally, I would like love to die from some natural disaster, but that's beside the point.
[This message has been edited by Conrad Kirby (edited August 02, 2001).]
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
Personally, I would like love to die from some natural disaster, but that's beside the point.
-I believe that this really detracts from any point you are trying to make. I am sure you offended people by doing this, and it was not very mature at all.
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
Wow, I have multiple personalities.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Conrad Kirby:
Jason, you ARE a fool. Ronnie here didn't say the firefighters were incompetent, he said YOU are. Wow, learn to read.
You aren't very modest about your accomplishments, which makes me suspicious. I know for a fact that Ronnie and I have both done a hell of a lot of volunteering for our age: 15.
I don't think you, Jason, or you Greg, realize that some people have different values. Personally, if I died from some "horrible" natural disaster, I would feel wonderful.

I am very sorry to appear immodest as it wasn't my intention. What my intention was actually was to try to convey some sort of idea what these people really do. I was hoping that your callous comments were simply due to ignorance, and I was attempting to enlighten. In order to persuasively write, you must first establish credibility with your audience. I'm sorry that point was lost on you. The other point I was trying to make is not to judge people for doing a job you may not be willing to do yourself. That's any job. Trash collector, prison guard, whatever.
What you do need to realize is that when you disregard the lives of someone in an open forum like this, there are people who are going to take offense to it. Maybe you are able to have this attitude because this is a position you cannot possibly imagine yourself in? I would like to think we all have enough empathy to be able to try to place ourselves in each others shoes.
I did read his attack on my competence, but as he has no conceivable way to measure that, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that he was talking generally about incompetent firefighters or the incompetence of those four individuals.
I'm glad to hear you engage in at least some kind of volunteer work. Hopefully it isn't just because of a school requirement, but instead is something you do out of a desire to serve your fellow man.
Unlike you, I do not hope you die in some kind of horrible natural disaster. I can imagine what your loved ones would go through and wouldn't wish that on anybody. And I don't think you would feel "wonderful". What you would feel is the air heating up around you to such an intensity that you could not imagine. Soon the water in your sweat drenched clothes would turn to steam, burning you until it evaporated. It now gets harder to breathe and your intakes of breath are beginning to sear the inside of your mouth, your nose, your throat, and your lungs. You will begin to smell the hair on your body burning, while you still can smell. Eventually your very breaths are what will kill you, as the super-heated air you inhale finally takes its toll. You would have wished it had happened before you felt your eyes and your skin burn with an unimagineable intensity. All this while having to endure the screams of those around you. That wouldn't be so "wonderful" would it.
Ronnie Johnson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 106
I'm glad to hear you engage in at least some kind of volunteer work. Hopefully it isn't just because of a school requirement, but instead is something you do out of a desire to serve your fellow man.
-Come on, you talk about trying to not seem imodest, yet you patronize me with this satement. NO IT WAS NOT FOR SCHOOL. Perhaps you should think about what you write before you write it.
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
Soon the water in your sweat drenched clothes would turn to steam, burning you until it evaporated. It now gets harder to breathe and your intakes of breath are beginning to sear the inside of your mouth, your nose, your throat, and your lungs. You will begin to smell the hair on your body burning, while you still can smell. Eventually your very breaths are what will kill you, as the super-heated air you inhale finally takes its toll. You would have wished it had happened before you felt your eyes and your skin burn with an unimagineable intensity.
That's exactly what I mean.
[This message has been edited by Conrad Kirby (edited August 02, 2001).]
Paul Ralph
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2000
Posts: 312
Conrad, Ronnie:
If you want people to respect your opinions, you have to earn that respect.
I can look past the disdainful comments to see the values behind them, but your comments it hard to make the values credible.
Comments like these...
B) A couple of lives out of 6 Billion, big whoop (That's where we're reading disrespect for firefighters...how should "big whoop" be read as anything but disdain?)
and...
Who cares about less than a dozen guys who aren't smart enough to run when they see fire?
(That's where you imply that the firefighters are incompetent.)
Note: Don't try to pretend that it wasn't one of you that made that post. You're not stupid, neither am I.
You have made inflammatory remarks, so you get the same in reply.
As for my own opinion, I don't buy that all life is created equal. I consider tomatoes and cucumbers (before they are picked) to be alive as much as I consider myself or a fish that swims to be alive. If I don't support killing life to a certain degree then I starve to death.
I also suspect that you wouldn't take human life so lightly if it was your house and/or family in danger. I have lived in Washington State my entire life and (in the Western half of the state) the trees are *everywhere*. Left unchecked, it's almost impossible to figure out where the burn would end.
You *may* have a point about planning in advance and knowing what sources were available. But I'm betting it wasn't the firefighters that died who directly had to deal with the water issue. Most forest fires are battled not by attacking the fire directly, but my making a burn line around the fire so it can't go any further. The water is mainly to protect the firefighters and to make the work manageable.
And that water didn't come because of a beaurocratic bungle. I think that's a tragedy whether or not the fish should have been saved.
Paul R
Adrian Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 02, 2000
Posts: 688
Hahaa, &$*% the fishes and the birds. I just had sushi for lunch, damn, they taste #^$&^$@ good. And I'm gonna cook up some birds for dinner (maybe a chicken or baby pigeons SWEET). After reading some of your idiots' posting about saving the animals rather than human lives, now, I'm gonna call my congressman to support Alaska oil drilling (kill all the Polar Bears, I bet they make good fur coats). Then instead of taking a public transporation, I'm just drive around in my neighborhood in my car, and pollute the &%&@ out of the earth.
If the earth isn't fit to live in anymore, I'll just hop on the spacecraft that government provides for intelligent people.
Anyway, one of my friend is a fireman, after saving the people, he jumped into a burning building to save bunch of animals (mostly cats). He would be pissed if he see those posting.
I wish I can send the postings to your local fire department. I bet your candy ^*# that you will be praying for those dumb and incompetent fire fighters, to save your sorry ^$!*# when your animal-friendly crack house is on fire.
FIREFIGHTERS IS THE &#$^%%^ BEST.
[Foul language deleted by management.]
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited August 04, 2001).]
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Ronnie Johnson:
Thank for implying that I have never done any volunteer work, it shows that you can make rational deductions. I have never been part of habitat for humanity , I have never monitored a telephone crisis line I just sit behind my keyboard all day long. Well Mr. High and Mighty that is better than everyone because he is a prefect fire fighter and good citizen, I feel like the world is short changed for not having as many arrogant people like you. Just because I say that lives are equal does not mean I hold human life in low regard, it just means that I hold all lives equally. I know since you are always doing good you must be typing this as you are flying off to battle some sort of evil, so I guess I will stop typing.
[This message has been edited by Ronnie Johnson (edited August 02, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ronnie Johnson (edited August 02, 2001).]

Oh I am very far from a perfect anything. In fact I have never once made any comments regarding my skills or accomplishments. And I am absolutely not better than everyone. But I do hold human life in the utmost regard, but that's most, but unfortunately it seems not all, of us.
As I said to your compadre, when you are being insulting in a public forum, don't be surprised if people take offense. Also, I didn't mention a thing about volunteering. What I said was "Why don't you get out and put your convictions into practice, instead of just talking about it." If you do, then good for you. Keep it up.
What do you think the families of these four people would say if they had to read about your total disregard for the lives of their loved ones. As Conrad said, and you agreed, "A couple of lives out of 6 Billion, big whoop." Do you not see this as incredibly offensive? Then there's the extremely offensive comment by the Truth who isn't even man (boy) enough to post under the name he normally uses. We know anyone around here who has a history of going around and posting under other names?
Throw all the personal attacks at me that you want to, I really don't care. I won't even attack you back. I'm just sorry you cannot see that the way you chose to voice your oppinions could be seen as cold, callous, and offensive. Can you imagine Mrs. Craven having to tell her 7yr old daughter and 4yr old son that daddy's not coming home? That simply tears me up. I strongly hope, and indeed suspect, that you guys truly do have more compassion than you are letting on.
Ronnie Johnson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 106
Both of those quotes are Conrad's Paul...
Greg Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 1012
hmmm, i did not expect to get type of response when i first posted the article... i actually expected everyone to be on the same side of this issue. but, an argument is always fun, right?
yes, conrad, i do realize that people have different views... believe me, i realize it more than you can imagine. after serving 4 years in the Navy (living on a ship with 3,000 of my closest friends) and traveling half-way around the world, i have experienced these different views a lot.
as for not being modest, i agree with jason that he was just trying to establish credibility. i was on the "fire party" on my ship for a couple years. our big concern was a fire in the engine spaces... they say the heat gets around 3000f (jason's description takes care of the rest). they also say the first 4 or 5 people on the hose are going to die... i was #3.
after drilling 3 times a week for several months, we thought we were invincible. one day, before our inspection, there was a real "fuel oil leak" in the #1 engine room (that usually leads to a main-space fire). as luck would have it, i was on duty that day. we were dressed and heading down to the space within 2 minutes... fortunately we were able to control the situation before the fire got going.
you should have seen the looks on the rest of the guy's faces when we were getting suited-up... everyone of us were thinking that we might die that day. the only reason i was able to go down that ladder was because i did not want to let my team down, so i put death out of my mind, and did my job. i cannot begin to imagine what it was like to see the flames approaching, then get inside the tents by the road that day, listening to the firestorm rushing over-head, and feeling the temperature sore to horrible heights.
i am not trying to take credit away from anyone's civil actions, but until you face death like that, i do not think you can really appreciate what those 4 firefighters went through. and, they were just the "mop-up" crew. the fire was supposed to be controlled, and the water was going to keep it from returning. they were not expecting to be overwhelmed that day.
Ronnie Johnson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 106
If you are emplying that I wrote what "The Truth" said you would be wrong. Yes I did use different names beofre I registered but now I stick to one name. Besides that is not my style to be hurtful with no point. Also, you still don't seem to understand that it is not that I hold human life in low regard, it is that I hold all life in the same regard. Adrian is just to dumb, and unable to form a complete thought for me to waste my time replying to his garbage. Good luck with your space ship jack ass, your going to need it if it's for intelligent people, because due to your last post, you seem to have a sufficient lack IQ.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Ronnie Johnson:
If you are emplying that I wrote what "The Truth" said you would be wrong. Yes I did use different names beofre I registered but now I stick to one name. Besides that is not my style to be hurtful with no point. Also, you still don't seem to understand that it is not that I hold human life in low regard, it is that I hold all life in the same regard. Adrian is just to dumb, and unable to form a complete thought for me to waste my time replying to his garbage. Good luck with your space ship jack ass.

When you responded to Conrad's first message by saying that you agree with what he said, at that point you shared responsibility with those comments. If you are now saying that you in fact do not agree, please clarify.
I hold all animal life in high regard, but I would lie if I said it was with equal regard. If I have to make a choice between saving a child or his puppy, then without a moment's hesitation I would have to say sorry to Fido. If in fact you are someone who holds all life in equal regard than I imagine a situation like that might raise a dilema.
Also I wasn't implying you were the Truth, it seemed more Conrad's style to me.
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
I'm pretty sure no one will believe me, but I did not post under thetruth. I think it's kindof funny that I'm stealing his credit. I think an administrator could check to see if the IPs are different.
Ronnie Johnson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 106
Just because I share an idea, I do not share the exact words. I do believe in the first statement of the first thing Conrad wrote as well as the third, however the second was callously stated, while I do believe we are over populated, I do not believe that fire fighters should die, they are very noble people no doubt about that, but they are living organisms just like the rest of us.
Greg Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 1012
i tend to believe that you are not "the truth," conrad. if you were, i am sure you would have flamed me for what i wrote in response to his/her comments...
i cannot stand phantom posters in threads such as this.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Greg Harris:
hmmm, i did not expect to get type of response when i first posted the article... i actually expected everyone to be on the same side of this issue. but, an argument is always fun, right?
yes, conrad, i do realize that people have different views... believe me, i realize it more than you can imagine. after serving 4 years in the Navy (living on a ship with 3,000 of my closest friends) and traveling half-way around the world, i have experienced these different views a lot.
as for not being modest, i agree with jason that he was just trying to establish credibility. i was on the "fire party" on my ship for a couple years. our big concern was a fire in the engine spaces... they say the heat gets around 3000f (jason's description takes care of the rest). they also say the first 4 or 5 people on the hose are going to die... i was #3.
after drilling 3 times a week for several months, we thought we were invincible. one day, before our inspection, there was a real "fuel oil leak" in the #1 engine room (that usually leads to a main-space fire). as luck would have it, i was on duty that day. we were dressed and heading down to the space within 2 minutes... fortunately we were able to control the situation before the fire got going.
you should have seen the looks on the rest of the guy's faces when we were getting suited-up... everyone of us were thinking that we might die that day. the only reason i was able to go down that ladder was because i did not want to let my team down, so i put death out of my mind, and did my job. i cannot begin to imagine what it was like to see the flames approaching, then get inside the tents by the road that day, listening to the firestorm rushing over-head, and feeling the temperature sore to horrible heights.
i am not trying to take credit away from anyone's civil actions, but until you face death like that, i do not think you can really appreciate what those 4 firefighters went through. and, they were just the "mop-up" crew. the fire was supposed to be controlled, and the water was going to keep it from returning. they were not expecting to be overwhelmed that day.

Excellent post Greg. Thanks for sharing that story. As I think we've established in another thread at some point, I'm also ex-military (USAF, 12yrs), and you know us military guys love war stories! That was a good one, and it conveyed the state of mind of your crew very well. Thanks for your service.
Jason
Greg Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 1012
you're welcome, jason! even though i wondered why i was there every day i was in, i look back on my experiences with a great deal of pride... i did not go in the reserves when i got out 3 years ago (3 years on the 9th), but i sometimes wish i had. the military (or any civil service) certainly gives you a different outlook on life... no matter who you are.
yes, we have shared sea (war) stories before. i think i have one for just about every situation... and they are from just 4 years in the Navy.
[This message has been edited by Greg Harris (edited August 02, 2001).]
Jake the Snake
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 02, 2001
Posts: 109
It is just amazing to find out what kind of people exist out there(Conrad, Ronnie...). Where do you people come from? How do you guys look like?
JTS
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.
Conrad Kirby
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 17, 2001
Posts: 178
Jason, I never said I had disdain for the firefighters, and I wasn't trying to imply that. I have no problem with what they are doing directly, but the people who send the firefighters out were somewhat wrong in the matter. I do not agree with Ronnie that all living things are equal. I believe that we are better adapted to living than, say, a cucumber.
The only animals I have regard to are usually cute, fluffy, and pretty. I have a certain regard to humans, but I don't like how we have become to be, I even look at myself in distaste sometimes.
To state my point clearly:
I wouldn't have liked the outcome from this fire anyway. Obviously a vast amount of emotional distress was created by the incident. In order to prevent myself from that distress I look at it as an insignificant loss of lives in comparison to the other 6 billion humans out there. It doesn't help me to feel what the families are feeling and start feeling depressed, because I don't think there is a point to be made to the govmnt.
Ronnie Johnson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 106
Jake,
I come from the black hole at the binary system Cygnus X-1 and I am actaully a large green slime mold. It is amazing the type of stupid people out there, wouldn't you say??
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
I forgot to mention, just for the record... There was a fifth firefighter on the crew, Jason Ernhoff, 21, who was critically injured but survived. His primary injury was severe burns to both hands. There is a very good chance he will lose both of them.
If anyone is interested in who these five brave people were, please see http://www.firehouse.com/lodd/2001/wash/bios.html .
Jason
 
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subject: Endangered Fish Policy May Have Cost Firefighters' Lives