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On the veggie/vegan subject....

Janna Lockhart
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 21, 2000
Posts: 24
I cannot believe I feel the need to delve into this after the McD controversy, but...
I have a question for all you veggies out there that will sound a little accusatory and I don't mean it to be at all. Honest. I have just always wondered how the philosophy comes to terms with modern medicine. For instance, drugs must first be tested on animals before they can reach consumers, so do you also boycott medicine? Surgeries (which are almost always developed on animals)? Do you vaccinate?
Just wondering...not trying to step on anyone's toes...


- Janna
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Hmmmm, vegetarians. I like them grilled medium-rare with A-1 sauce. Yummy!


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
John Bateman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 09, 2000
Posts: 320
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Hmmmm, vegetarians. I like them grilled medium-rare with A-1 sauce. Yummy!

Hahahahahaha!!!

SOURCE CODE should be SURROUNDED by "code" tags.
Ling Wu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 19, 2000
Posts: 184
Originally posted by Sridevi Kovvali:
It is nature's surivival rules to eat a weaker one to survive like tiger eating deer. But humans have reasoning and you have the choice whether to follow the animal instincts in you by killing something for your basic need or stay away from it.
Science wouldn't have advanced for the betterment of humans and animals without research and experiments it has nothing to do with a person being a veggie though everyone whether veggie/non-veggie opposes the killing of innoncent animals for experiments or other reasons like fur etc. I haven't taken till now any medicine which has some animal fat in it.

Questions:
1. Do you use anything that is made of leather, such as shoes, bags, belts, etc. If you do, do you consider this typpe of consumption basic needs and not simply "killing of innocent animals"?
2. OK, you may not have taken any medicine that contains animal fat. But do you refrain from taking medicines that have been developed by being tested on animals? If you do, how can you tell which ones were never tested on animals? What about medical procedures? If you were critically ill and in need of a medical procedure or medication that have involved in testing on animals, would you rather give up your health , or even your life, as a gesture to protest cruelty to animals?
I have constently see conflicts in people's opinions on such issues. Yet I haven't been able to get any satisfactory answers from those holding such views. I believe there are very few people who would be for any unnecessary torture of animals in the name of science or medicine, or human consumption. But the fine line does exist between what is necessary and what isn't. It is always easy to say that one is against "killing and torturing of innocent animals for the benefit of humans" because it is catchy and can easily put someone on a quilt trip. But can those who is against killing of animals for scientific research or human consumption clearly and truthfully answer my questions above?
Michal Harezlak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2000
Posts: 185
Originally posted by Sridevi Kovvali:
[...] When you can survive by eating the vegetarian food why do you want to take the life of animal or anything on whom you don't have a right.[...]

Just a thought: Perhaps you can survive but you will be malnutrition [take biology 101]. How do you know I do not have a right to do so? ... anyway, it all has been said here before.
Nathan Pruett
Bartender

Joined: Oct 18, 2000
Posts: 4121

It is always easy to say that one is against "killing and torturing of innocent animals for the benefit of humans" because it is catchy and can easily put someone on a quilt trip.


"Quilt trip"?

Is that anything like a magic carpet ride?

-Nate
[This message has been edited by Nathan Pruett (edited August 16, 2001).]


-Nate
Write once, run anywhere, because there's nowhere to hide! - /. A.C.
Janna Lockhart
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 21, 2000
Posts: 24
In response to Sridevi: I understand and respect your position on the vegetarian issue. I think that many vegetarians choose not to kill animals for consumption but still consume medicines or other products that indirectly came from either testing or killing animals and I don't have a problem with that for this reason: they are doing what they can to limit the killing of animals to the point that it seems reasonable to them. Just becase the solution isn't perfect, doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to limit what they feel is unneccesary. Kudos to them.
I guess this post was in response to Sandra Lavigne's suggestion in the McD discussion that we all check out the PETA website. PETA drives me crazy because they oppose any animal testing whatsoever but medicinal drugs cannot be approved by the FDA without having gone through testing on first animals, then humans. I doubt that most of the PETA supporters forgo taking all medicines. I doubt that they choose not to vaccinate their children despite that the drugs were tested on animals. You can't persecute the means and then accept the benefits. Sorry, Sandra. I'm not trying to attack you, but the PETA organization because they are way too extreme and make a bad name for all the animal lovers that try to protect and respect animals in a sensible way.
Connie Boyd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2001
Posts: 73
Ever since I went veg I haven't purchased any leather products. I still wear and use all the leather things I owned before changing my diet, but I haven't yet come across a situation where I HAD to buy a leather product.
As for animal testing, I don't purchase personal care products tested on animals, and I have a tendency to think that human subjects would provide far more meaningful results in scientific research. But when will that ever happen? Many drugs are given the FDA seal of approval only to be sent back to the drawing board when it is realized that the effects on animals do not always mirror the effects on humans.
It's not a perfect world, and I'm not a perfect person, but I do what I can, right?
Janna Lockhart
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 21, 2000
Posts: 24
Originally posted by Connie Boyd:
It's not a perfect world, and I'm not a perfect person, but I do what I can, right?

Absolutely, and I think that's great. Lots of people think that because there isn't a perfect solution to a problem, we shouldn't even try. I think your view is a great one!
Andrew Shafer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 338

www.beyondveg.com
The only way you live is by other things dying. Qualification of plant life(or death) as different from animal life is an anthrocentric projection of our limited understanding of life onto the situation.
Eat what you choose, there is consequence for all choice.


!_I_Know_Kung_Fu_!
Sandra Lavigne
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 30, 2001
Posts: 26
from what i've heard and read about it, vegans do not wear any clothing derived from animals, this includes not only fur and leather, but wool as well (sure the sheep aren't killed but their lives are horribly painful and tortured)
as a vegan, i refuse to buy any animal products, but i do wear a pair of leather sandals that i got long before i went veg. see, vegans are generally environmentally-conscious as well, and don't believe in wastefulness, so it's deemed ok if the product was already purchased, the harm is done, throwing it away won't bring back the animal.
as for medicines. i am a vegan, and i also take meds for a thyroid condition, i cannot live without them. i can live without meat. as far as i know there is no animal fat in my pills, but i am going to do research to find out which brand is against animal testing and switch to it.
more insight into animal testing: i make a conscious effort to buy things that say "not tested on animals" on the label, but sometimes you have no choice. certain products are still illegal to sell without animal testing in Canada, but activists are currently trying to change these outdated and unnecessary laws. as i read in a PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) magazine, pouring bleach down a rat's throat does not make it safe for us to drink.
we already know which chemicals are dangerous, there is no need for testing anymore. and research and advancing technology has allowed us to use human corpses for most testing. just not all companies have gotten with the times and switched to that method yet.
everything was tested at some point, so a lot of the companies who don't do testing simply use the research results from previous testing rather than having to do the tests themselves. i don't agree with supporting testing, but i do think that since it was already done, there's no harm in re-using that information, it saves lives of many innocent animals. usually when it's a new company boasting their cruelty-free products, they simply bought test results from other companies, which is great, but some of the older companies reuse their own research, which means they did, and maybe still do (on other products) animal testing, such as the company Procter & Gamble. they are trying to stop using animal testing, and all of their cosmetics are now cruelty free, they just don't boast it because they feel it is misleading because they have previously done animal testing on those products. (i emailed the company this is what they told me in response)
so it's really up to the individual person's opinion on what is right and wrong. no two vegans are alike, they all differ in strictness and opinions.

oh, about the comment about vegetarians being malnutritioned, that's crap. sorry, but it is. how do you think so many vegans and vegetarians live to be just as old, or older, as omnivores? and a vegan diet is much more strict and well balanced than an omnivourous one, most omnivores are more defficient in nutrients than any sensible vegan diet would allow. omnivores generally base their meals around meat, and don't get enough fruits and veggies.
i do take supplements, but not all vegans do, and they make out just fine. i do because sometimes when i work late shifts i can't get all the nutrition i need from food and i need a multivitamin (vegan, no gelatin or other animal products in my vitamins ) actually i don't even take my vitamins every day, like when i'm home all day i know i can eat properly and i don't take them, but if i'm working i take one because the food at work is not particularly healthy. i'm usually limited to salad and cheeseless pizza, which is ok for a vegan meal, but it's missing the protein i need.


live cruelty free ~ don't eat meat or use products tested on animals
Connie Boyd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2001
Posts: 73
Qualification of plant life(or death) as different from animal life is an anthrocentric projection of our limited understanding of life onto the situation.

What's your point? Does that mean we should eat humans too?
From beyondveg.com: "We hope the range of views presented here will encourage--perhaps even force--you to think for yourself and go beyond the need for reliance on any single authority in evaluating the worth and workability of a diet. "
Actually, I've already done that. I've experienced life as both an omni and a veg. On the other hand, how many omnis have tried veg diets, other than having a salad for dinner once in awhile.
This thread is barely even off the ground and we've already implied that vegetarians are inconsistent in their views, malnourished, and deluded in thinking that plant life is any less sacred than animal life. Excellent.
Sahir Shibley
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 08, 2000
Posts: 275
Vegans are a bunch of cabbage killers and tomato slayers. Plants have feelings too. The other day I overheard a bunch of plants in a cabbage patch saying some rather uncomplimentary things about someone called Connie Boyd. Are you the same person?


[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited August 17, 2001).]
Andrew Shafer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 338

Dear Connie,
I don't think people should have to eat other people unless they choose to do so.
I spent 7 years of my 28 year life as a vegetarian, consuming no animal flesh for that period. Approximately 4 years ago, after coming full circle and focusing primarily on my physicality, I concluded that for myself and my goals the vegetarian diet was improper.
To reiterate my point, you only remain alive because something else gives up life. Either spinach or mutton, one way or another, something will die or else you will. To choose between one or the other as better to die is arbitrary.
I choose my food based on the qualities I believe it will impart. If I had certain goals, I might consider a vegetarian diet again but I don't see it happening.
As for what has been implied in this thread:
1)vegetarians are inconsistent in their views
ostensibly true
2)vegetarians are malnourished
Not necessarily, but often. To really do it right requires knowledge and resources beyond most people. To do it as a vegan is quite expensive $$$
3)deluded into thinking that plant life in less sacred. . .
I'm not sure where sacred crept into the discussion. Deluded is as deluded does. Most vegetarians are doing it because it is "in" and "trendy", not because they are smart or know anything about nutrition. There are exceptions.
Sridevi,
Just curious, what tradition were you born into that made you vegan by birth?
I'm sorry, but your argument about pets and eating meat don't make any sense in a larger context. If someone decides to eat sheep, how does that effect there feeling for the dog that greets them excitedly when they return home? By extending your line of reasoning I can argue that you don't love anything that is alive because you eat plants that were alive. I'm sorry, non sequitor.
And Sandra,
most omnivores are more defficient in nutrients than any sensible vegan diet would allow.

I don't know about most omnivores, but I will certainly agree that most people in the western world are deficient in key nutrients while maintaining a high caloric intake. The keyword is sensible. Sadly, veganism is often dogmatized and rarely sensible. As I mention above, there are exceptions, but to really pull it off takes knowledge and $$$.
Finally,
I applaud anyone that lives their convictions fully, whatever they might be. If you choose to be vegetarian/vegan, more power to you, but you don't do yourself any favors by being confrontational or assuming that no one that isn't vegetarian knows anything about it.
On a side note, might I suggest, to those who are open to ideas, research the macrobiotic philosophy on diet. I found the ideas to be quite insightful.
regards,
Andrew
soumya ravindranath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 26, 2001
Posts: 300
Hey,

of course there are born vegetarians in this world
Esp. in India (sorry, i donno the percentage), it is very normal to live a full life as a pure vegetarian. By pure vegetarian, i mean, those who eat only plant products (no, no eggs). My family and ancestors have been vegetarians for centuries. We (or any of my 100s of relatives who are also vegetarians) have never had any ailments which one could attribute to malnutrition. According to me most of the vegetarians in India take their habit for granted rather than cultivating views about it - they never have had the need to justify their food habit.
I am a vegetarian, but i would surely kill a mosquito or a cockroach if i happened to come across one in my home ! No, i wouldn't want to eat them
PS : sridevi, i guess u are a vegetarian and not vegan ?
[This message has been edited by soumya ravindranath (edited August 17, 2001).]
Connie Boyd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2001
Posts: 73
Dear Andrew,
That's great that your were a veg and I'm sorry that it didn't work out for you. I respect your position and am glad that you have worked out your diet in a way that serves your needs.
To readdress your point, I think it's a cop out to say that plant death and animal death are equal. Are you saying that we can't know how either plants or animals experience death, so we might as well eat either or both?
I choose my food based on my taste buds. I like being a vegetarian. I feel that I eat a more varied range of foods and that by eating locally grown, seasonal vegetables I am reducing my impact on the environment and helping local farmers prosper. If I had certain goals, I might consider an omnivorous diet again, but I don't see it happening.
As for what has been implied in this thread:
1) vegetarians are inconsistent in their views
Everyone is inconsistent in their views (except Peter Gragert --see the comfort care thread ). Many vegans are dogmatic because omnis are always trying to catch them at something. The point is not the inconsistency, but the need to always have to defend your diet just because it is not the norm.
2)vegetarians are malnourished
Often? I hardly think so. Maybe the teenage potato chips and coke vegetarians, but there are millions of people who thrive on vegetarian diets. Cultures / religions in which a vegetarian diet is the norm have existed for ages. Many cities boast pure vegetarian indian or chinese restaurants. These are diets based on culture, not the latest trends. Being a vegetarian has neither been hard nor expensive for me.
3)deluded into thinking that plant life is less sacred ...
I was referring here to your point about anthrocentric projections, or our vain attempts to qualify the difference between plant life (or death) and animal life. As far as trendiness, it seems as though your experiences have colored your perceptions of vegetarians.
I mean, you're judging vegetarians for choosing a diet without knowing much about nutrition, but the average joe probably knows even less. I know people who drink six cokes in one day. I'd rather be a trendy vegetarian! Most omnis eat without any thought as to how their food will affect their health, weight or well being. There are exceptions.
As for pets and meat, what is the difference? There are people who own pot-bellied pigs, and I would hope that those same people don't eat pork, but who knows? The pork chop on their plates are from different kinds of pigs after all. Why do people get so horrified when they hear of other cultures that eat dogs? It doesn't make a difference. If you're going to eat one animal, you might as well eat them all if they taste good.
Finally, I hope I haven't come off as confrontational, but I felt that some comments in this thread were patronizing, however thinly veiled. I also think that a negative experience with a vegetarian diet shouldn't lead one to believe that the diet is inherently flawed, rather it is a diet that is not right for everyone.
Vegfully yours,
Connie
Sahir Shibley
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 08, 2000
Posts: 275
There has been another report of expression of veggie outrage against the vegetarians. This time it was reported by the one other person in the world who can understand veggiespeak viz HRH The Prince of Wales . By Veggiespeak I dont mean hindi but a language spoken by plants. The spokesman for the universal federation of eggplants and radishes is reported to have spoken out against Sowmya and Sridevi for their aggressive attitude towards members of the veggie kingdom.
[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited August 17, 2001).]
Andrew Shafer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 338

I'm aware of several traditions that promote vegetarian lifestyles from birth (the Vedic traditions, most Buddhists, etc), but I'm not aware of any that are vegan. (that means no dairy or honey)
If there is a vegan tradition, I would be curious to know what it is.
Connie,
I love vegetarian food and eat vegetarian quite often, in fact being a vegetarian suited me quite well.
I also agree with your points about people and general eating habits.
To readdress your point, I think it's a cop out to say that plant death and animal death are equal. Are you saying that we can't know how either plants or animals experience death, so we might as well eat either or both?

I'm not sure how you see this as a cop out at all. The main point is really that we only live by ending the life of something else. (Ending the life in a very limited understanding of ending and life, of course) Becoming truly conscious of this fact is profound. To say that killing an animal is cruelty but killing plants is not, is simply a function of our ability to more easily anthropomorphize the animals.
I'm not for or against vegetarianism, eating meat or any other diet. I'm for conscious living. If I didn't make it clear before, I respect and support your choice to live however you choose.
For myself and my diet, I think there are two main considerations.
The climate I live in and the type of activities I participate in.
Living in colder climates, the body will crave more animal foods, probably due to the higher fat content rather than the protein. The aboriginal Eskimos diet (Native North American) will be 80-95% animal flesh for much of the year. Another interesting fact, the Tibetan Buddhists consume animal flesh, which can really only be explained as a climate necessity, considering the roots of their doctrine.
Then there is activity, if you are going for a life of contemplation/meditation, then vegetarian is a good choice. The food itself helps to calm the mind, the liberal use of spicing not withstanding, of course. In contrast, a life of pure physical exertion is going to be optimized with quite a bit of fleshy foods.
Most of us live somewhere in the middle.
I try to balance my diet with the time of year and my activity level.
I hope you don't feel patronized.
Happy Eating
Whatever it might be, be thankful that you can eat
regards,
Andrew
Andy Ceponis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 20, 2000
Posts: 782
Vegetarians go well with a big slab of steak. I love grilled veggies right next to my medium rare roast beef.
mmmm
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944

Yeah. There ought to be a law against killing us veggies.
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944

Yes. Eating chappathi's should be outlawed. Do you have any idea how many of us wheat plants die to make one chappathi ?
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944

Yep. I agree
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944

By ll means eat the carrots, but leave us Tomatoes alone.
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by Roger Tomato:

By ll means eat the carrots, but leave us Tomatoes alone.

TRAITOR!!!
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944

Pleeeease , dont eat me!!!
Andrew Shafer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 338

I guess this is the kind of crap you must endure to be a veg*n
my appologies
Sandra Lavigne
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 30, 2001
Posts: 26
lol

actually vegan primarily means no meat, dairy, or egg.. not all vegans believe in not eating honey, because it's not really directly from the animal. i haven't decided how i feel on that issue myself yet, but i'm not eating any honey until i do some research on it and make up my mind, i'd hate to find out some reason not to while i'd been eating it all along, i'd feel guilty.
as for the cultural thing, i don't know any that are strictly vegan either, BUT you have to realize in India and other countries of that area, milk is not a staple as it is in the western world. it is not used in food the way it is here, and most indian families do not drink milk. as for eggs, i'm not sure about that one, but i don't remember seeing or eating any indian food that contained egg. so yeah i guess most indians actually are vegan.
thing about milk is that it's totally unnatural if you think about it. we are the only species that drinks milk after weaning age, and the only species that drinks the milk of another species. sounds yucky if you really think about it. would you drink human breastmilk? no, but you're perfectly happy to drink cow's breastmilk. human breastmilk is for feeding human babies, cow's breastmilk is for feeding cow babies.
just had to insert my two cents on that subject.
oh, and being vegan isn't necessarily expensive. it is at the moment because of the high prices of produce during this dry weather across Canada and the US, produce is harder to come by this summer. but normally, it's quite a bit cheaper than buying meat. i spend way less money on groceries now than i did when i was buying meat. also, vegans generally are more limited to buying fresh stuff and cooking from scratch, whereas meat-eaters tend to buy a lot of pre-cooked, microwavable stuff which is very expensive. i used to spend so much money on things like pizza pockets and frozen stuff like that. but it's not so easy to find what are called "convenience foods" that are vegan. i've only seen a few packaged pasta dinners, but they didn't look very appealing anyways. this is another reason why vegan diets are so much more healthy, not as much junk food
my grocery bills used to be about $60 every 2 weeks, now it is usually only $30 or $40
Andrew Shafer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 338

The definition game. . .
I appreciate it Sridevi and I was well aware of the definitions before we started.
Vegan is not the same as vegetarian, but in context is the same as your definition of total vegetarian in diet.
The "vegan" people that I am familiar with would not eat honey and would argue that anyone that does is not vegan. Which is really of no concern to me, eat what you like, argue what you like with who you like.
I was also aware of Jainism. The are not vegan as they eat dairy products. I think they have some interesting ideas. How, pray tell, can one avoid breathing in bacteria? They also like to say you shouldn't eat at night (which I agree with) because all natural herbivores don't eat at night. (Which is not true, deer will often eat at night, especially around the full moon, or maybe it is just easier to see them then?)
You are correct to say I didn't understand your point regarding pets and animal food. If you would care to re-explain, I will re-examine the position.
Sandra,
The traditional Indian diet is not vegan. Which is neither here nor there, it is a pretty good diet, and damn it tastes good. Though some may exclude eggs, dairy food is present in many dishes. There are various cheeses and who can forget yogurt. (What is the origin of the word Yogurt?) Saag paneer, one of my favorites, is usually made with cream and cheese. You can't get a mango lassie?
I'm not sure you really want my answer on human breast milk, so we'll skip it.
While it is easy to fill your grocery cart and your table with vegetarian foods inexpensively, to really meet your nutritional needs, particularly the amino acid profiles, takes some doing, though I agree it can be done.
I don't eat pre-prepared frozen dinners. I get some frozen fruit juices occaisonally. I rarely eat packaged foods. I spend much of my day munching on raw produce. I've seen quite a few "vegans" that eat more junk food than myself. (though I have developed a weakness for a bowl of ice cream, especially homemade) I now eat between 4-7 servings of meat a week. Its not a bad diet, but I'm sure I could improve it if I had a less hectic schedule.
Eat what you will
Andrew
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Personally I think vegans are a bit chewy.
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
would you drink human breastmilk?

Of course, I like drinking it direct from the source.
Randall Twede
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Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

sorry this thread is too long so i didnt read everyones comments. I eat meat. I always have. I dont really see anything wrong with the act itself however I am appalled by some of the things that the meat produceers do. in particular the way they raise calves just to be veal. I have actually seen and smelled the place these calves live in. it is an abomination. they could at least let these animals live a decent life before they are slaughtered. I dont personally eat veal(it tastes bad to me) i dont eat some other meats(lamb and some types of bologne and hotdogs) for the same reason. but some meat i relish. venison(deer) is my favorite of what i have eaten so far. such is life.

SCJP
Visit my download page
Sandra Lavigne
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 30, 2001
Posts: 26
before i went vegan i wouldn't eat lamb, veal, duck, or anything else really besides pork beef and chicken. didn't even eat much seafood but only cause i didn't like it.
though personally i'm against eating meat or any other animal products, i try not to push my opinions onto others. i know i was very curious about it before i switched, so i feel there are probably others who are as well, so i try to spread around as much info as i can to help out, but i don't actually try to convince people to go veg. i know how much i hate when JW's come around and try to push their beliefs on me, so i try not to do the same to others with my opinions on meat.
so if anything i've said sounded pushy, i'm sorry, it wasn't meant to be
Andy Ceponis
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Joined: Dec 20, 2000
Posts: 782
Yeah veal sucks. I prefer a nice slab of butt steak.
Connie Boyd
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Joined: Feb 22, 2001
Posts: 73
hi Andrew.
I believe the African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem promote a vegan lifestyle. And even though not all Buddhists are vegan or even vegetarian, it's not an uncommon path to follow and is totally consistent with the Buddhist views of peace and non-violence.
---
The main point is really that we only live by ending the life of something else. (Ending the life in a very limited understanding of ending and life, of course) Becoming truly conscious of this fact is profound. To say that killing an animal is cruelty but killing plants is not, is simply a function of our ability to more easily anthropomorphize the animals.

Your argument is purely metaphysical (read: cop out ), and once you're out there, anything is valid either for or against eating meat. To say that killing plants could be just as cruel as killing animals is to relegate the physical display of pain and the desire of all animals to preserve/extend their own lives into the ether.
I'll grant you cold weather or certain living conditions as a reason to eat meat. I've seen disparaging comments by vegans who don't know better regarding the Dalai Lama, who eats meat at his doctor's advice. Living in the south, I fortuntely don't have to contend with those forces of nature.
In terms of the activity part, I have to whole-heartedly disagree. I don't think a vegetarian diet should necessarily be coupled with "a life of contemplation/meditation." I lead a fairly active life and have not noticed any detriment to my performance since abstaining from animal products. To cite one famous example and one I hope to follow, Dave Scott is a five-time Ironman Triathlon winner and vegan. (And by following his example, I mean finishing an ironman, not winning, and certainly not winning five times.) If that's not a life of pure physical activity, I don't know what is.
But anyway, I'm not really arguing anything. After a rocky start, we seem to have come to the conclusion that we generally agree, but are opposed on certain finer points.
Enjoy!
Connie
Angela Poynton
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Joined: Mar 02, 2000
Posts: 3143
Do we really have to go through this discussion AGAIN
OK I suppose you could define me as a veggie, since I don't eat meat.
The way I see it though there are many variations of veggie.
Those who will not touch anything vaguely associated with an animal.
Those who don't eat meat but do eat fish (me)
Those who don't eat meat or fish!
Those who don't eat meat or consume dairy.
etvc...
The problem is that people like to group people, so meat eaters tend to group all of the above into one "Veggie" group, and "Veggie's" tend to group everyone else into another group.
I personally think that everyone has a right to eat whatever they want. I don't care that my friends eat meat, I just made a choice one day that I wouldn't. At the time it was provoked by learning of how animals were slaughtered, now I have a slightly more grown-up attitude. I'm still not happy with how animals are killed but have my health to consider, so I don't eat meat, I do eat fish, and I do eat diary. You only have to take one look at me to see I'm a long way off malnourished and I don't have problems getting food in restaurants etc.
As for where I stand on the Animal Rights verses modern medicine. My 3 year old Godson just went through a life-saving heart operation where a piece of a cows heart was used to patch two holes in his, and also a valve from another human being was used to replace his faulty valve. As much as I would rather it wasn't necessary to use either, both of these saved the life of someone I love dearly and I am a selfish person at heart! So I feel no guilt or anger. I just hope that one day modern medicine will make it possible to replace such thngs with artifical things.


Pounding at a thick stone wall won't move it, sometimes, you need to step back to see the way around.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Sridevi Kovvali:
But what about those animal lovers who has pets in their homes but do consume animal food. Isn't it contradictory to say i love my pet and at same time consuming animal food. Should we think is there any true love for their pet. or do we think they don't mind to kill some animals for food and some they love and keep them as pets.
I'm not sure I understand the contradiction. I keep house plants but I still eat lettuce. There are certain animals that I won't eat. Or more truthfully, there are only a few animals that I will eat and all of them (other than seafood) are bred specifically to be eaten. By the way, my cat eats meat... does that mean she's a cannibal?
Andrew Shafer
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Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 338
Sridevi,
What makes you think only vegetarians "has to justify how far he/she stretches himself in his/her choices"?
I'm personally more critical of the general omnivorous eating habits than I am with the veg*n.
Honestly, you don't have to justify or be consistent about anything, just live your life however you deem best. I was just trying to point out what I considered an inconsistent position in your post, in hopes that we could explore it.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that you are unfeeling without love for anything alive, only that this could be an implication of extending your reasoning about pets/meat.
The reason people choose certain foods are complex, certainly more complex than to just model the choice based on taste or on emotion alone.
Connie,
You are correct, the African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem practice and promote a vegan lifestyle, as do a number of other cults and communes. I personally don't consider these as "Traditions". One of my arbitrary personal criteria for a tradition is it has to stay in practice for at least a century. (though I do think you should get a point for knowing about the African Hebrew)
Core Buddhist beliefs are compassion and non-attachment. Peace and non-violence are not Buddhist core belief, though they are often a by-product of compassion.

The main point is really that we only live by ending the life of something else.

First, the arguments I make are not purely metaphysical. Second, "once you are out there, anything is valid" is a cop out that relegates the desire of all plants to preserve/extend their own lives into the ether.
Moving on to activity,
I was not trying to advocate that veg*n diet is only for people that want to sit around in lotus or seiza or that people who eat meat cannot meditate/contemplate, only that certain diets are conducive to certain activities.
If you will notice, in my original post about this subject, I chose to use the phrase "pure physical exertion" as distinct from physical "activity". As a vegetarian, I was quite active, running and endurance "activity" is well supported by the starchy fuels provided by plant matter. If I wasn't clear originally, there are other aspects of power and explosive muscular contractions that are not as well supported by a purely plant diet. Can there be linebackers (a position in american football, usually played by large men) that are vegetarian, sure, just like there can be ones that eat a lot of crappy food and soda. Is that the optimal diet for the "lifestyle"? Probably not. . .
But anyway, I'm not really arguing anything. After a rocky start, we seem to have come to the conclusion that we generally agree, but are opposed on certain finer points.

I must concur
Andrew
[This message has been edited by Andrew Shafer (edited August 21, 2001).]
Andrew Shafer
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Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 338
Sridevi,
If it makes you feel any better, most humans are inconsistent in their views, including myself. (especially if you consider the passage of time, people change)
Ling Wu
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Joined: Jul 19, 2000
Posts: 184
Originally posted by Sridevi Kovvali:
But saying Humans are inconsistent is different from saying Vegetarians are inconsistent.

Please don't get too defensive about this. I don't believe anyone in this thread is deliberately attacking the vegetarians just because they choose not to eat meat. The reason that only vegetarians, not the entire human race, is brought up for arguement here is because vegetarianism is the topic. I myself is a meat eater with vegetarian friends of varying degrees (diary but no meat, no meat and diary, etc....). I have a lot of respect for their choice and I do cook vagitarian meals of their choice when I invite them for dinner. My questions posted earlier about using leather products and animal testing for medical and scientific research reflected my frustration toward views from some vegitarians who often use such acusitive words such as cruelty and unnecessary slaughtering to describe human consumption of meat, yet who display behavior voice opinions inconsistant with their views. You tell me what kind of reasoning is that: the animals are already dead so what harm can it be to use the skin?
I guess mud slinging comes from both trenches in frustration to defend their own beliefs and hurt is felt by both in the meantime. I sure hope we can try to understand each other, or at least agree to disagree, and co-exist peacefully ever after. Of course, meat eaters and vegitarians will co-exist whether we want to make it peaceful or not.
[This message has been edited by Ling Wu (edited August 22, 2001).]
Andy Ceponis
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Joined: Dec 20, 2000
Posts: 782
I am very glad there are veggies in this world.
MORE MEAT FOR ME!!!MMMMMMMMMM
 
wood burning stoves
 
subject: On the veggie/vegan subject....