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To Pranav and the Others... :)

Tony Alicea
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Pranav:
I am only responding because you addressed me (are you sure you didn't mean Tony Curtis, Ha ha!?)
In my post I only stated that I agree with Andy in that there will never be total peace and agreement among nations and/or cultures in planet Earth. Too many differences. Sad but true.
I go one step further: Unless one side wins once and for all, there will always be war.
And fanatical beliefs in so-called religions are the main cause of discord.
Why?
Because if you and I and others who would not even believe in a "god" would get together and discuss our differences, these differences would be concerned about not beliefs but about empirical facts (land owned, territory to acquire for economic reasons etc.)
For example: "You guys have everything and we have little, can we talk about it?" Or "Can you teach us how to be self-sufficient?... or etc.
But in the present situation, and to make it succinct, when any of the parties declare:
"Because GOD says so...", then we are screwed. No more reason allowed beyond this false argument! If "god" says kill the infidel, then it's the credulous fanatic's duty to kill.
Christianity is not exempt from this neither is Judaism.
On the other hand, Taoism, Hinduism, Confucianism and these ancient so-called religions (which for me they are not but instead true methodologies to get in contact with the SELF) do not proclaim "kill the infidel".
If only we could collect all the Korans, Old Testaments and New Testaments and rip off the pages that have to do with violence off them and then re-distribute said writings to the masses...
Or if better still, the masses would find out that there is no GOD in the way that THEY think it is.
What INSECURE "god" needs adoration at least 5 times a day? Or every Sunday? Or every Saturday!
How insecure can be a being be that requires so much frequent 'adoration'?
We think that "god" is perfect, all-powerfull and omniscient.
How comes it has to be adored by idiot beings (compared to "him") like us to feel good?
And where do these 'commandments' come from? Does "he" has a "power trip" that relishes in watching sub-beings like us jumping through hoops just to get 'saved' FROM WHAT!?
I'll tell you from what: FROM OURSELVES!
There is no Satan: THERE IS NO NEED TO POSTULATE HER (him?):
We humans are better than well equipped to cause harm in the Planet. We don't need any 'outside help' (a devil). We are VERY good at it.
Witness Osama.
If there is a 'god', she has left Earth to itself (absentee landlord) and now we have to put up with this NEW cancer!!
Oh Well! CLASS DISMISSED!
Signed:
The Occult Government of the World:
In each World Crisis Always giving the best advice to the Planet.

[This message has been edited by Tony Alicea (edited October 05, 2001).]


Tony Alicea
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ray bond
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What INSECURE "god" needs adoration at least 5 times a day? Or every Sunday? Or every Saturday!
How insecure can be a being be that requires so much frequent 'adoration'?

well said Tony , but people who do this(at least 5 times a day) cant think beyond their relegion borders,they are inside there relegion's defined borders and they think everyone should also inside it ,whoever not remove them (talibans are the nearest example of this type of thinking) .
Cindy Glass
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come'on Tony
It is not because GOD needs to be reminded that we are here, it is because WE need to be reminded that God is here. In our weak-willed sort of human-ness it is difficult to keep our inner selves on the right path.
Or perhaps you are just a better person than I am, but I have to say that I screw up on a (much more than) weekly basis. Weekly or daily time to bolster up my inner strength by reflecting on God is to my benefit, not his.


"JavaRanch, where the deer and the Certified play" - David O'Meara
Tony Alicea
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Thanks for replying, Cindy.

But what does "god" do for the betterment of life on the Planet? Why doesn't it show up once and for all in a big cloud on an otherwise clear day and demonstrate its power over Creation in front of us, dwellers of the planet, so that THERE BE NO DOUBT that we are under its control.
Applying the thinking that I learned in Physics at the University, we would have to define the characteristics of a 'god'. Then look to the World to see if any of these characteristics are seen. If not, one can always say "but god works in mysterious ways". But the observation could also be explained as "there is no god".
And I screw up as often as you or anybody else, Cindy
And as such, I try to do better next time. The only entities that I expect understanding from, are living entities in this world right now.
I understand perfectly well that some people need a belief in "something greater" to comfort themselves during bad times.
I read, in 1992, the FAQ for the alt.atheism USENET newsgroup and it said something very interesting in the very first question in the FAQ. I'll try to remember it as best I can:
"Isn't a belief in God useful when we are going through desperate times and doesn't it help to get through these situations?"

The answer was that atheists rather believe in the truth and deal with it accordingly instead of convincing themselves of an imaginary thing that by definition is not real.
You said: "reflecting on God is to my benefit, not his."
Then by all means continue to reflect.
It's that in some holy books including the Bible, it is required that man worships frequently, independently of what man may get out of it.

Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Tony Alicea:

But what does "god" do for the betterment of life on the Planet? Why doesn't it show up once and for all in a big cloud on an otherwise clear day and demonstrate its power over Creation in front of us, dwellers of the planet, so that THERE BE NO DOUBT that we are under its control.
Because God has given us free will. If God wanted automatons then He could have created mindless drones. He wants us to use the gifts He has given us in a wise way.

Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Tony Alicea
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Where's the proof? Or even suggestive evidence?
It may come to you as a surprise that I am not an atheist.
Jane Griscti
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Tony,
There is no 'proof', at least not scientific proof. Each of us has to decide on our own. Millions grow up believing in one god or another because that's what they've been taught and they're satisfied with it.
Humans seem to be wired to believe in something. The trouble starts when we think our particular form of belief is the 'one and only true belief'
In the end, does it really matter if a 'god' exists? Isn't the way we live our lives, today, each minute, more important than whether or not we go to some presumed paradise or hell when our human life ends?
We don't know where we came from or where we'll end up when we die. No one does. Personally, I think it's better to deal with what we do know: that we are all human beings. Why not try to be the best we can be as human beings. If a god does exist, well, hey, he can't complain .. he made us


Jane Griscti
SCJP, Co-author Mike Meyers' Java 2 Certification Passport
Anonymous
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On the other hand, Taoism, Hinduism, Confucianism and these ancient so-called religions (which for me they are not but instead true methodologies to get in contact with the SELF) .

I am offended that with your ignorance you call my religion(Hindu) just a methodology. If i say
some thing about christanity you guys name me as 'Basher' or 'insane' and probably would have deleted
it by misusing your powers.
Where's the proof? Or even suggestive evidence?

My array of Gods which i keep on a platform are the proof. .
Actually God manifests himself/herself in many ways and also forms(Hindu belief) like eg., as Human(my array of gods) and also
as animals too(Cow, snakes etc ). The so called miracles are manifestations of god.
There is God( better word wud be god's manifestation) in every element(or preciesly the atom) of nature and we need to realize it. I have realized it and i am a gods manifestation and i am real
so Tony know about me and through me god. . If you cannot then take the help of your spirutal leader MTY to know about god .

Tony Alicea
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Anonymous Hindu:
I don't care what you think of what I said, but what I said was a compliment to your religion
At least your religion does not command the wanton murder of other humans that don't believe like you.
Run with it
Anonymous
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I don't care what you think of what I said, but what I said was a compliment to your religion

The point is whether you understand the religion or not before giving such statement/compliment(whatever it is).
The point is you got to understand SELF to understand GOD(Hinduisum conveyed by A Hindu Post). It is not a compliment but reflects ignorance on your part to understand Hindusim from a hindu point of you.
The Point/A Hindu
Jason Menard
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This seems to be the cruxt of the problem here lately. People taking one word out of a sentence (methodology in this case) and going off on a tangent instead of trying to understand, within the context of the poster's comments, what he really was trying to say.
Language is a complex thing. We are not all going to be able to choose the precise combination of words all the time that will allow us to simultaneously convey our feelings while at the same time not offending anybody. Compound that with the fact that many here are not native English speakers and this is what we get.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 06, 2001).]
Tony Alicea
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Point:
Of course!
I am not a Hindu, Einstein!
So are you categorically stating that your religion advocates violence?
Can you read English?
Maybe that's the cause of your misunderstanding!
[This message has been edited by Tony Alicea (edited October 06, 2001).]
Anonymous
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I am not a Hindu.

The point is don't make ignorant statements about my religion. The point is there are people thinking like you too.
eg. Your earlier statements like "If you are not an american you don't understand our problems so don't posts
your views".
Can you read English?

I can write English .
So are you categorically stating that your religion advocates violence?

The point is do you understand my english(What i post). May be you have a problem and that reflects by your statement above.
Tony Alicea
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So are you categorically stating that your religion advocates violence?
Anonymous
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The point is do you understand my english(What i post). May be you have a problem and that reflects by your statement above.
The Point/ A Hindu (get it Buddy).

Anonymous
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quote]I recognize your right to believe in it but I think that if you believe in any kind of "god" (or gods in your polytheistic religion, can I ask?), you're most likely wrong.

So are you categorically stating that your religion advocates violence?

Do you understand my english(Posts).
If you still didn't get it then it is me who posted as A Hindu.
If you understand my english then you will get answers to all the above statements.
The Point/ A Hindu : D).
Tony Alicea
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I lost interest. Bye.
Mapraputa Is
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Non-native English does contribute to misunderstanding and misinterpretation, but THIS is kinda too much


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Cindy Glass
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Actually, Tony, I couldn't figure out what he was trying to say either
Pranav Jaidka
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Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
Pranav:
I am only responding because you addressed me (are you sure you didn't mean [b]Tony Curtis
, Ha ha!?)

On the other hand, Taoism, Hinduism, Confucianism and these ancient so-called religions (which for me they are not but instead true methodologies to get in contact with the SELF) do not proclaim "kill the infidel".
[/B]

Hi Tony .
Sorry for joining in late .Youve probably left this conversation by this time . Unlike the other posters I take this comment of yours as a compliment to my 'religion'. You probably dont know much about Hinduism and you still manage to extract the best thing it teaches us. Non Violence .Probably many hindus do not realise this themselves. No offense meant to other posters who would disagree with this opinion of mine
However i dont know how you can differentiate between a religion and a methodology.
For me a religion itself is a methodology and vice versa .It teaches you how to live your life and perform your day to day activities in a methodical way .
As far as other posts are concerned personally ...i myslef have been carried away a couple of times....yes differences in opinions do exist and thats why things are the way they are.
I also belive that not one single religion is completely right or wrong .Thats is the exact same reason that we have so many religions.
Also this thing of one side coming out victorious to show the world that it was right .... still does not convice the losing side about it being wrong.
So the solution may take a while to come ...but the route to it should be carefully chosen.
Anonymous
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You probably dont know much about Hinduism and you still manage to extract the best thing it teaches us. Non Violence .Probably many hindus do not realise this themselves. No offense meant to other posters who would disagree with this opinion of mine

Pranav, Hindu belief is not Non-Violence and it is Gandhi who preached it. There are many things you can draw from religion. It all depends on your perception.
For example:
In Bagahvad Geeta Krishna(God) brainwashes Arjuna
to wage War and kill people. And God says it is HE who
does everything and Arjuna was just used as a MEDUIM.
I have seen a movie recently in which a person kills people by saying the above things in Geeta.
The point is if you want to preach Violence you can preach it by using Hindusim(religion)too. But luckily no one did it.
Pranav Jaidka
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Originally posted by The Point:
Pranav, Hindu belief is not Non-Violence and it is Gandhi who preached it. There are many things you can draw from religion. It all depends on your perception.
For example:
In Bagahvad Geeta Krishna(God) brainwashes Arjuna
to wage War and kill people. And God says it is HE who
does everything and Arjuna was just used as a MEDUIM.
I have seen a movie recently in which a person kills people by saying the above things in Geeta.
The point is if you want to preach Violence you can preach it by using Hindusim(religion)too. But luckily no one did it.

the point I think you almost have a point ...but youre missing it. Do you know why Arjuna was asked to fight ?? It was because it was his duty at that time and he was getting doubts.
This is in no way to be taken as spreading violence end encouraging people to kill. Anyway hinduism does not have anything to do with this isolated incident and there are lots of other things to be looked into what happened for this.
And MOVIES .,..........thats the worst thing one should pick out examples from .Cmon.
[This message has been edited by Pranav Jaidka (edited October 08, 2001).]
Anonymous
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And MOVIES .,..........thats the worst thing one should pick out examples from .Cmon.

Hey not that bad as pointing a link to a site maintained by some moron.
Pranav Jaidka
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The Point .
As far as the Gandhian principle of non violence is concerned i am not a very keen supporter of that. It is my opinion that it took us around 20 years more to gain independence because of this principle.
I guess what i am trying to say is that as a hindu i am not interested in using violence to spread my religion because my religion does not teach me to do this.
However as an Indian we have fought wars in the past and that does not mean we are going against our religion by fighting. Thats a different issue altogether.
Anonymous
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but youre missing it. Do you know why Arjuna was asked to fight ?? It was because it was his duty at that time and he was getting doubts.

I have not missed the point. You were telling Arjuna's fears and i stated the next thing
i.e., God's brainwash to Arjuna.
I guess what i am trying to say is that as a hindu i am not interested in using violence to spread my religion because my religion does not teach me to do this.

I have already said it.
The point is if you want to preach Violence you can preach it by using Hindusim(religion)too. But luckily no one did it.


Anyway hinduism does not have anything to do with this isolated incident and there are lots of other things to be looked into what happened for this.

I am surprised by this. Why do you draw conclusions.
My point is we are not doing violence but that doesn't mean the religion doesn't have that
trait.
Also, Hinduisim is not into spreading it to non-hindus. That May be bc'z it was the oldest
religion(I think so).
I replied to your post bc'z of your non-violence principle of Gandhi (which you said as Hindusim)
i don't like it much and hey don't draw conclusion that i am into other side Violence. There is
space in between two extreme points.
Pranav Jaidka
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I think we'll end up in a loop....
Shama Khan
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Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
Do you know why Arjuna was asked to fight ?? It was because it was his duty at that time and he was getting doubts.
This is in no way to be taken as spreading violence end encouraging people to kill.

Exactly my point:
This point can be used to explain Islam and why Quran mentions violence. If all books are read in context then only good come out of it.
In reference to the verses in Quran that tell Muslims to fight, there's a pretext to it which no one wants an explanation of. The muslims in Arabia at that time were getting persecuted by polytheistic Arabs for their beliefs . The verses came from Allah telling the Prophet Muhammad to fight back the polytheistic Arabs.
The Truth stands out there - The un-Truth may seem to win but that is only temporary.
Shama

Shama
Anonymous
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Voilence/war/jiahd in Hindu and Islam/Chritianity are totaly un-similar.
Never in the history has Hinduism (or even Orthodox Hindus) tried to forcibly convert anybody. On the other hand both Islam and Christ. support that. Now, whether these religions really instigated followers to forcibly convert other people OR the followers themselves "assumed" that it is their duty to convert non-followers, I am not sure.
But the fact is that, India (and nearly all other places) were at the receiving end of this "crusade". And so, atleast this is for sure that these religions did not "stop" the followers from commiting such barbaric crimes on non-believers.
So, please DO NOT compare Hinduism and Islam/Christ. Ideas and philosophy of Hinduism is far beyond the "do-this-or-I'll-kill-you" theory/basis of Islam/christianity.
Anonymous
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So, please DO NOT compare Hinduism and Islam/Christ. Ideas and philosophy of Hinduism is far beyond the "do-this-or-I'll-kill-you" theory/basis of Islam/christianity.

My point is also the same. Hinduisim is not a Methodology(As Tony's conclusion) or just a non-violence by Pranav.
I have explained it in different ways and i might have missed some too. And i agree with aman's point don't compare my religion with others.
The Point/A Hindu

Rosie Vogel
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I suggest we collect ALL so-called holy books of the world (Quran, Bible, Torah and all the rest of them)...
we ship 'em to areas near the Afghan border...
and the refugees can make nice BIG bonfires of them to get through the winter months.
I am sick to my stomach of ALL religions !
Jason Menard
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Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Aman Chain:
Voilence/war/jiahd in Hindu and Islam/Chritianity are totaly un-similar.
Never in the history has Hinduism (or even Orthodox Hindus) tried to forcibly convert anybody. On the other hand both Islam and Christ. support that. Now, whether these religions really instigated followers to forcibly convert other people OR the followers themselves "assumed" that it is their duty to convert non-followers, I am not sure.
But the fact is that, India (and nearly all other places) were at the receiving end of this "crusade". And so, atleast this is for sure that these religions did not "stop" the followers from commiting such barbaric crimes on non-believers.
So, please DO NOT compare Hinduism and Islam/Christ. Ideas and philosophy of Hinduism is far beyond the "do-this-or-I'll-kill-you" theory/basis of Islam/christianity.

Well.. since you brought it up...
We in the US feel that everybody is free to chose their own religion so we do not see religious groups attempting conversion as a problem, since people are able to make up their own mind as to what religion makes sense for them.
I would say using force and violence to prevent conversion and target various religions is far worse than attempting to convert. According to many reports, there seems to be a bit of a problem in India lately with Hindu extremist attacks on Christians. It seems that the Hindus who carry out these attacks claim it is because of some kind of mass conversion campaign the Christians are trying to undertake. While there are a couple extreme Protestant groups who are attempting conversion, the targets of the attacks seem to indicate that the real problem the Hindu extremists have is with the Christians educating the poor. This is backed up by the words emblazoned across one Hindu hate site:
Hindus! Beware! The Christian Crusades are still going on today in this
present day and age and India's Hindus are the targets. These
crusaders are not attacking with the sword this time but are using even more powerful tools - food, clothing, medicine, money and shelter to lure poor, uneducated Hindus to Christianity.

What you may not understand is that some Christians, Catholics for example, are required by their religion to provide aid to the poor (this applies primarily to the clergy). While it is possible that it does take place, attempted conversion is not one of the goals for providing this aid.
The Washington Times wrote on June 28, 2000:
, a bipartisan group of 21 members of the U.S. Congress wrote to President Clinton asking him to declare India a terrorist state because of its oppression of Christians and religious minorities. They took note of the pattern of violence against Christians that has been
going on since Christmas 1998.

The same Washington Times article tells of one of the most disturbing events I have heard in awhile

Hindu fundamentalists chanting "Victory to Hannuman," a Hindu god, burned missionary Graham Staines and his two sons, ages 8 and 10, to death while they slept in their Jeep. The Indian government, led by the Hindu nationalist BJP, [had not at the time] taken action to punish the persons responsible for any of these atrocities.

It seems the BJP, who I believe is the current ruling party in India, has very strong ties to Hindu extremist organizations. According to Human Rights Watch:
Activists belonging to militant Hindu extremist groups such as the Bajrang Dal and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council, VHP) were often blamed for the violence. Both groups are members of the sangh parivar, an umbrella Hindu organization that boasts the ruling BJP as its political wing. These Hindu groups blamed the violence on popular anger over Christian efforts to convert Hindus. While government officials at the state and central level condemned the attacks, they did little to prosecute those responsible.

In January 2000 one of the murderers of Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two small children was finally arrested. What came out of it? According to Human Rights Watch:
a state government order, believed to be aimed at limiting the activities of Christian missionaries, requiring a police inquiry before anyone adopted a new faith.

I could go on about the burning of churches and schools, the killing of priests, and the raping of nuns, but I think you get the idea.
This is not meant as an attack on Hinduism by any means. I am only trying to point out that all religions have their share of nut cases, whether it be Christianity, Islam, or Hindu. So before getting all high and mighty about how pure your own religion is compared to somebody else's, you may want to examine all the facts.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 08, 2001).]
Anonymous
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I so knew somebody was going to post this.
The only thing that I find valid in your post is that every religion has it's share of nut cases.
However, there are 2 very important facts that you conveniently ignored:
1. The Mughals and later on imperialistic Christians who committed attrocities were not "nut cases". And they did it in not just in India but in nearly all the "colonies".
These 2 religions "by belief" support(ed?) forcible conversions.
The hordes for muslims and christians in India that you are talking about "appeared" only in a couple of centuries when people simply had no means to resist the barbaric aggressors.
The outcome of that is there are "pseudo" muslims and christians who have lost their roots. Forfathers of whome unfortunately succumbed to forces of the unjust rulers.

2.

We in the US feel that everybody is free to chose their own religion so we do not see religious groups attempting conversion as a problem, since people are able to make up their own mind as to what religion makes sense for them.

That is absolutely fine when the people are literate, when people can understand the issues involved, when people are not "dependent" on any aid.
But it is NOT FINE when the people are poor and do not have any idea about what is good or bad. And more so, when people do not have the POWER to resist. And that's what I am talking about.
Is it ok in US to fool an ignorant and take undue advantage? I believe not. But that's exactly what these missionaries are doing in India.
Before independence their modus operandi was "force". It is very much well known how the portugese forcibaly converted nearly the whole state of Goa.
After independence, their modus operadi is "fraud". Here is an exapmple of what happens in Kerala:
A poor fisherman looses his boat. Local pope(father or whatever) contacts him and advises him to pray in the church and put his request to Jesus. Obviously, when there is no other way to survive, he does as advised and the next day receives a free gift of 1000/- or so for the boat. Wow...jesus is so great....there he becomes a christian.
What is this? Is this valid in US? Of course, this won't happen in US because people are educated. They are not dying of hunger. They have a lot of options.

The examples that you've given about the murder of Graham Stains etc. is just a "long delayed" reaction of local hindus. They never went to other countries to force Hinduism. In fact, there are other religions in India too. How come nobody kills Buddhist or Jainist or Sikhs? They also practice and preach their religions. But unlike Islam and Christ. they DID NOT and DO NOT force any body to do so. That is not their "belief". That is not "approved" by these religions.
Even if you collect all such examples they are miniscules as compared to similar crimes done by Muslims and Christians.
Do I support them? NO. But I cannot blame them either.
Pranav Jaidka
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Jason
The Graime Staines incident sent a shock all over the country .So it is not a normal happening. Please do not take this as a thing which happens regularly in India. It is the first such incident after centuries. The Mughal invasions was the last time this probably happened (with Hindus themselves).
And the person responsible .....'Dara Singh' is in jail for a very long time.

Id like to tell you something more which you are not aware of .Aman probably missed this out along with the fisherman example.
There are certain Churches in India which offer free education to children .This is a good thing .Only there is a catch.
You can only be educated in these wonderful schools if you are Christian. The places where these churches come up are mostly Hindu dominated .I think you can piece the remaining part of the riddle.
What you have to understand is that you cannot name any one country in the world with so many cultures mixed together .Name one (please dont name the US because people from all over the world may be present here but they have to wait for generations to get a recognition as one of your own.).
Im talking of a land where people are born as citizens free to practice any religion they like .The only country that i can name is India itself.
And when you have so many religions and cultures interacting with each other you are bound to have some friction .
Thats true for any coutnry in the world.
So instead of pointing and picking things which are wrong try and think about things which are right and youll see what a country we have .I think we're all proud to be part of it.
Pranav
Jason Menard
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That is absolutely fine when the people are literate, when people can understand the issues involved, when people are not "dependent" on any aid.
But it is NOT FINE when the people are poor and do not have any idea about what is good or bad. And more so, when people do not have the POWER to resist. And that's what I am talking about.
Is it ok in US to fool an ignorant and take undue advantage? I believe not. But that's exactly what these missionaries are doing in India.
Before independence their modus operandi was "force". It is very much well known how the portugese forcibaly converted nearly the whole state of Goa.
After independence, their modus operadi is "fraud". Here is an exapmple of what happens in Kerala:
A poor fisherman looses his boat. Local pope(father or whatever) contacts him and advises him to pray in the church and put his request to Jesus. Obviously, when there is no other way to survive, he does as advised and the next day receives a free gift of 1000/- or so for the boat. Wow...jesus is so great....there he becomes a christian.
What is this? Is this valid in US? Of course, this won't happen in US because people are educated. They are not dying of hunger. They have a lot of options.

The examples that you've given about the murder of Graham Stains etc. is just a "long delayed" reaction of local hindus. They never went to other countries to force Hinduism. In fact, there are other religions in India too. How come nobody kills Buddhist or Jainist or Sikhs? They also practice and preach their religions. But unlike Islam and Christ. they DID NOT and DO NOT force any body to do so. That is not their "belief". That is not "approved" by these religions.
Even if you collect all such examples they are miniscules as compared to similar crimes done by Muslims and Christians.
Do I support them? [b]NO
. But I cannot blame them either.
[/B]

Wow. I have to admit your response is extremely disturbing. I am actually almost speechless. I guess the fanatical can always find a justification for the murder of children. Man I really hope someone else from your country pipes up to say that you are not representative of the general sentiment.
I didn't know that poor = mindless. It's a good thing people like yourself are around to take care of them, or I should say, keep them in their place. However were people able to follow a religion before there was education? I did find examples of anti-Sikh sentiments and anti-Muslim sentiments as well, just didn't bother to mention them.
Note to others: Christians in India make up a tiny fraction of the population. I have read numbers ranging from 0.5% to 4.0%, but I suspect no one really knows. Hindus make up somewhere around 84% of the country.
I have to admit, my perceptions have been altered.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 09, 2001).]
Pranav Jaidka
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 264
Guess we Indian can compare the Graime Staines incident with the Sikh who was killed in Phoenix.
Not that it would make it right to happen in US rather than in India.
Note to others: Sikhs in US would probably make up .1-0.2 % of the population and Christians around 85% or more.

[This message has been edited by Pranav Jaidka (edited October 09, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Pranav Jaidka (edited October 09, 2001).]
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
Name one (please dont name the US because people from all over the world may be present here but they have to wait for generations to get a recognition as one of your own.).
Im talking of a land where people are born as citizens free to practice any religion they like .The only country that i can name is India itself.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. First, anybody who has their citizenship is "one of our own", regardless of how long they have been here. Secondly, we are free to choose any religion we like, and convert as we see fit. So yes, people born here are free to practice any religion they like? Are you saying that's not true, or am I unclear?
I know of families that don't practice religion, but maybe a child in that family wants to attend church so he does. Adults convert for a number of reasons: marriage, spiritual growth, whatever.
The statements between yourself and the fanatic from before seem to be contradictory about your countries religious freedom, as do reports of police investigations being required in order to change religions. I hope you are truly representative of your country and the other poster is not, because I definitely like the sound of your version better. But it should be noted that India is not the only country in the world where people are born as citizens free to practice any religion they like, you could also place the US, most of Europe, and Japan, to name probably only a few on the list.

[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 09, 2001).]
Pranav Jaidka
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 264
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I'm not sure what you are talking about. First, anybody who has their citizenshitp is "one of our own", regardless of how long they have been here. Secondly, we are free to choose any religion we like, and convert as we see fit. So yes, people born here are free to practice any religion they like? Are you saying that's not true, or am I unclear?

Now lets talk about Blacks in America .theyve been here for how long Jason ???You should know??? Are they treated fairly ???How many Black presidents have you had ??? How many senators were black ??? How many mayors are black ???
And I think the second part is closely related with the first so I will no comment on that.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
Guess we Indian can compare the Graime Staines incident with the Sikh who was killed in Phoenix.
Not that it would make it right to happen in US rather than in India.
Note to others: Sikhs in US would probably make up .1-0.2 % of the population and Christians around 85% or more.

[This message has been edited by Pranav Jaidka (edited October 09, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Pranav Jaidka (edited October 09, 2001).]

I'm afraid highlighting our problems will not make yours go away. Hate crimes of any sort are unforgiveable in my opinion. The difference between the two events, while both horrific, is that in one case organized hate groups with the apparent support of more than a few people were involved, and in the other case a lone psycho with no support from anybody was involved.
I was highlighting the percentages to counter that one individual's claim of the Christian hordes.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 09, 2001).]
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Orginally posted by Jason.
I didn't know that poor = mindless.

You have drawn a wrong conclusion as usual and labeled him as fanatic. Aman's explantion
depicts a real scenario of how christians convert people in India.
to correct the equation.
poor = gullible.
and gullible= easily persuaded.
To all your other crap about Hindusim and Indians i want to respond when i find time today.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
Now lets talk about Blacks in America .theyve been here for how long Jason ???You should know??? Are they treated fairly ???How many Black presidents have you had ??? How many senators were black ??? How many mayors are black ???
And I think the second part is closely related with the first so I will no comment on that.

I was not attacking your country, as I had stated. I was countering the claims of that one individual. I'm shocked anyone is sticking up for him.
I have no problem discussing our own problems and will not make excuses for them. You seem to have a not too clear view of our race relations in this country though. Countless mayors past and present are black and there are and have been many black members of Congress. Yes a couple of hundred years ago we fought a war that abolished slavery. Attitudes do not change overnight but they are progressing very rapidly over what has been a relatively short period of time. In my experience, we are by far one of the most racially tolerant nations in the world. However since we have such an open society that the world keeps an eye on, any problems we have here are magnified.
Now, what is it we were talking about...
 
permaculture playing cards
 
subject: To Pranav and the Others... :)