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Big Picture for all the Acronyms

Kevin Crocker
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 06, 2002
Posts: 20
Hi all,

I've been around Java for a bit, but my head is getting tired of all the acronyms and where they fit into the puzzle. There's a lot of stuff that I just don't use, like awt, swing. I'm more into threads, io, nio, net, generics, annotation, enum, collections, OODBMS, j3d. I need to learn servlets, jsp, jstl, jsf (or whatever - struts?) a lot better.

I have a lot of things to figure out and less time to do it than I had before.

The apache people have managed to confuse me (althought I've heard that's not hard to do )

How do all the following fit into the large puzzle and why would I want to learn any of them (ie. what real benefit do they give me versus the learning curve), and is there an order to learning them:

Swing, Tapestry, Forrest, Cocoon, Maven, Turbine, Velocity, Spring (Winter, Fall, Summer ), Avalon, Excaliber, JSF, SWT

use small words - the word framework means nothing to me

the real issue is that I'm trying to pull together an easy way to deliver
web pages/elements/regions asynchronously (with Java, I'd prefer not to do AJAX unless that's the only way), with dynamic info at both ends and I want to be able to accomplish this trying to maintain as clean a MVC2 as I can.

I can't stand all that HTML in servlets, and I can't stand all the JSP in web pages - isn't there an easy way to decouple web pages from server code via templates - html templates, css templates, and webflow templates, all mixed together so I can have this from inside my Java dev environment (Eclipse).

Anyway, enough ranting, I'm just trying to settle my brain down a little and get a bigger picture since that's how I understand things better, quicker.

Kevin
Chengwei Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Posts: 884
How do all the following fit into the large puzzle and why would I want to learn any of them (ie. what real benefit do they give me versus the learning curve), and is there an order to learning them:

Swing, Tapestry, Forrest, Cocoon, Maven, Turbine, Velocity, Spring (Winter, Fall, Summer ), Avalon, Excaliber, JSF, SWT

There's always a learning curve for anything new. It's just how steep it is. Anyway, chances are you won't have to know all of the Apache's projects. You just need to learn what you need to do to get your job done. You read about the projects, learn at a high level if they fit into your needs, if they do, read more, if they don't, drop it.

the real issue is that I'm trying to pull together an easy way to deliver web pages/elements/regions asynchronously (with Java, I'd prefer not to do AJAX unless that's the only way), with dynamic info at both ends and I want to be able to accomplish this trying to maintain as clean a MVC2 as I can.

No, AJAX is not the only way.

I can't stand all that HTML in servlets, and I can't stand all the JSP in web pages - isn't there an easy way to decouple web pages from server code via templates - html templates, css templates, and webflow templates, all mixed together so I can have this from inside my Java dev environment (Eclipse).

Use MVC, you know that, don't you? In the ideal world, it will be great if you could decouple your business logic from presentation, but if you're working with existing codes, chances are you're stuck, unless you refactor.

Good luck!


SCJP 1.4 * SCWCD 1.4 * SCBCD 1.3 * SCJA 1.0 * TOGAF 8
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 61760
    
  67

You don't need to learn everything at once. In fact, a lot of what you listed you don't ever need to learn at all.

If you want to write wep apps with servlets and JSP, just learn servlet basics, and become familiar with JSP 2.0 and the JSTL.

Be sure to write scripless JSP pages with no Java embedded within them. That way, your JSP pages are the pure templates you seek without any Java goo to gum up the works.

Then, and only then, are you in a position to determine if adopting other technologies is appropriate or even required.

Since your focus seems to be on web applications, I'm movong this to the Servlets forum.


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Kevin Crocker
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 06, 2002
Posts: 20
Originally posted by Chengwei Lee:

Use MVC, you know that, don't you? In the ideal world, it will be great if you could decouple your business logic from presentation, but if you're working with existing codes, chances are you're stuck, unless you refactor.

Good luck!


Chengwei,

Thanks for the tips. I know MVC. I havae an ideal world right now. This is my own code from scratch (even from OOA&D via UML - I even did requirements documentation). This code has no legacy in it at all - it's all just falling from my head (in a big heap at the moment). I've already written about 35000 lines of code and am in my who-know-which iteration. I've gotten to the point where I need to start tackling the parts that I don't really understand the big picture of how things fit together, hence the post.

I refactor whenever it appears that I've lost focus on what classes are supposed to do. To me, that's the point that tells me that I should clean up the current iteration and start with the next one.

Thanks again.

Kevin
Kevin Crocker
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 06, 2002
Posts: 20
Originally posted by Bear Bibeault:
You don't need to learn everything at once. In fact, a lot of what you listed you don't ever need to learn at all.

If you want to write wep apps with servlets and JSP, just learn servlet basics, and become familiar with JSP 2.0 and the JSTL.

Be sure to write scripless JSP pages with no Java embedded within them. That way, your JSP pages are the pure templates you seek without any Java goo to gum up the works.

Then, and only then, are you in a position to determine if adopting other technologies is appropriate or even required.

Since your focus seems to be on web applications, I'm movong this to the Servlets forum.



Hi Bear, thanks for the comments. Very helpful.

Hm, a lot of what I listed I don't need. OK. I'll buy that. It sure shortens my learning curve. I already know servlets, I'm not an expert but I know how to write them. I also know JSP (mostly 1 not much 2) but haven't spent much time with JSTL. I already have 4 JSP books, and 3 JSTL books - I guess it's time I learned to read.

I do admit, I hate refactoring after deciding to change technologies.

I guess I need to read up more on scriptless JSP - I'm not really familiar with it unless all it is is the new JSP 2 that uses JSTL like tags rather than the scriptlet tags.

I'll post back once I get something working.

Thanks again, Bear. You've been most helpful.

Kevin
Ben Souther
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 13410

I guess I need to read up more on scriptless JSP - I'm not really familiar with it unless all it is is the new JSP 2 that uses JSTL like tags rather than the scriptlet tags.


JSP 2.0 has support for Expression Language (EL) which means that it can support the Java Standard Tag Library (JSTL) 1.1.

With the addition of those two technologies, there is no need to put a single scriptlet in a JSP page in a Model, View, Controller (MVC) application.

I agree with Bear, the features in JSP.2.0 do a lot of the things that you previously needed a framework for. Learn the core technologies and THEN shop around to see if there is a framework that will make your life simpler.


Java API J2EE API Servlet Spec JSP Spec How to ask a question... Simple Servlet Examples jsonf
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 61760
    
  67

Originally posted by Ben Souther:
Learn the core technologies and THEN shop around to see if there is a framework that will make your life simpler.


The answer for me has been "no". I've found that, in the JSP 2.0 environment, a simple front controller -- too lightweight to even begin to be called a framework -- is all that is necessary to create robust and easily maintained web applications.
 
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