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The "anti American" paradigm.

Lalooprasad Yadav
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Joined: Nov 03, 2001
Posts: 92
Originally posted by Tony Alicea :
And I think you should voluntarily STOP posting to this forum. Only because it is not the best outlet for your anti American hatred. There's a better place for your anti American hatred other than in this American Forum which is open graciously to the International Java community.

This was in reply to the following messages
Originally posted by Nanhesru Ningyake:
>But singing praises to Taliban or Osama bin Laden right now is really making my stomach churn
There are millions of people who think Osama is a great fella; and that he's doing an excellent job teaching the infidels a lesson. So why should hearing just a couple of supporting voices on this forum cause so much grief for you?


Originally posted by Nanhesru Ningyake:
I think you deserve to be stripped of your Shrievalty - atleast in MD. I don't care how many people you've helped, or how well you know Java - if you abuse your power this way - your power MUST GO!


It must be something I must have been smoking. But I do not see anything "anti-american" in either of these messages. One of the messages is anti Tony Alicea. But
does it qualify as anti American. Is it based on the theory "Tony Alicea is an American hence anti Tony Alicea is anti American" ?

Meanwhile an unidentfied gentleman posted this message
Originally posted by BigMattie
The time is fast approaching when all of you people who are spitting on the U.S. are going to have your Visas revoked, and then you'll be loaded back onto the boat headed back to that wonderful place you were so eager to leave. I for one will be very pleased. Trust me, you can see the writing on the walls, Dubyah is going to kick all you America haters out, and then you can enjoy life in these "beautiful" terrorist countries you are so eager to defend.


The "anti American" theory has been floating around here long before September 11. The cause
of this hostility seems to be something other than the WTC attacks. My bet is that it is
the H1B programme. It seems some of the people here see the H1Bs as the primary cause of their
inability to find a job or to move to a better one. This repressed hostility comes
out as tirades against the countries that get aid from us , the people who should be
so grateful for being here and the people who poop in rivers. The sad truth is that the messages that provoke such responses would normally be taken in good humour but for this underlying hostility. The recent McDonald's lawsuit thread is a manifestation of this syndrome. I fail to understand by what leap of imagination have they tagged the Indians here as Taliban supporters. If I were to stoop to responding in kind I could accuse you of being "India bashers" and whine about it and demand that you swear allegiance to the Indian flag and poop in the Mississipi to show you are really not "anti Indian".
The recent events in Afghanistan have proved that the only remaining contenders for the title of the world's greatest superpower are India, China and Russia (we have the world's second largest army and the fourth largest airforce. Isn't that good enough ). Since we have the muscle power to say this, I hereby order all able bodied Americans to go on a pilgrimage to poop in the Mississipi or the Missouri (whichever is closest to your hometown ). This pilgrimage should be undertaken with the utmost solemnity and should be seen as an act of faith which will purge you of all "anti Indian" feelings and dispell any misgivings we may have about your loyalty to us.

PS. This message should not be seen as an endorsement of Thinku Mama. While I generally disapprove of him I felt it was my moral obligation as the "Equaliser" of Meaningless Drivel to lend him temporary support.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Another regular ashamed of his convictions feeling he must post unregistered. *YAWN*
Surely you can do better than highlight posts from some unregistered guy who posted an ignorant statement and some quotes between two people who have had an ongoing fued for some time now?
There have been numerous anti-american postings in this forum since 9/11, and many of them have been called out on the carpet already. There are too many to highlight, but I'm sure you are already familiar with their existance (a search will work too).
The cause
of this hostility seems to be something other than the WTC attacks. My bet is that it is
the H1B programme. It seems some of the people here see the H1Bs as the primary cause of their
inability to find a job or to move to a better one. This repressed hostility comes
out as tirades against the countries that get aid from us , the people who should be
so grateful for being here and the people who poop in rivers.

In a word... nope. H1Bs have nadda to do with anything as far as the 9/11 discussions go. Sorry to burst your bubble, but while many may not like the way our government handles the program, it certainly isn't something that festers at the forefront of our mind. We have more important things to worry about right now.
I fail to understand by what leap of imagination have they tagged the Indians here as Taliban supporters. If I were to stoop to responding in kind I could accuse you of being "India bashers" and whine about it and demand that you swear allegiance to the Indian flag and poop in the Mississipi to show you are really not "anti Indian".

The only leap in anyone's imagination that has taken place is yours I'm afraid. Nobody has tagged the Indians here as Taliban supporters, but some individuals here, including some Americans, have been accused of anti-American tendencies. Your attempting to link this to an entire group of people would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
The recent events in Afghanistan have proved that the only remaining contenders for the title of the world's greatest superpower are India, China and Russia (we have the world's second largest army and the fourth largest airforce. Isn't that good enough ).

Really? Fact is the United States is the only superpower, and will be for some time. Some of the things required to be considered a superpower are a large and very powerful (size != power) military capable of massive strategic force projection, a tremendous industrial and economic infrastructure, and a large sphere of influence (such as the Soviets had in their day, such as we enjoy now as proven once again by the current coalition).
I think the next nations possibly capable of attaining superpower status might be China and Russia. What China lacks is the sphere of influence and the force projection capabilities in their military. They can't project force much farther than the China Sea. They only have some influence over some surrounding nations such as North Korea, other than that they have very little influence with anyone.
Russia's economy needs to come a long ways before she is a player again. Much of her sphere of influence is still intact from the Soviet days, but definitely not as much. Russia used to have capable force projection but much has fallen into disrepair. Still, what force projection capabilities Russia does have cannot be dismissed.
Sorry, and this is absolutely no knock against India, simply the truth as I see it, but India has quite a long way to go before she attains anything even close to superpower status. India has very little if any force projection, and those strategic forces it does have are fairly limited. India's economy and industrial base have far to go before being considered on par with the United States, Japan, Gemany, China, or any of a list of other nations for that matter. If they keep doing what they are doing they should get there someday.
we have the world's second largest army and the fourth largest airforce. Isn't that good enough

No it isn't enough. Just to give you something to think about, supposedly Iraq had fifth largest military in the world prior to the Gulf War.

from http://www.cdi.org/issues/wme/
prior to the 1991 Persian Gulf War, Iraq had 1 million active duty troops and over 5,000 tanks. The U.S. and its allies had roughly 600,000 troops deployed in the region, and less than 2,000 tanks. Yet the allies achieved an overwhelmingly lopsided victory, suffering less than 200 combat-related casualties, while the number of Iraqis killed was in the tens of thousands.

It is a fact that the US and her allies have the best trained, best equipped militaries in the world. That's not meant to be a boarst, I only mention it to illustrate that there are factors other than sheer numbers which play a very vital role. Economic and industrial factors are key contributors to the might of any nations military. Iraq actually had more forces in the region than the US and allied forces combined.
Good luck in your aspirations for superpower status. You'll probably get there someday, assuming India and Pakistan can avoid nuking each other back to the Stone Age. Basically though your theory is way off, Americans here, nor as a group, do not have as a whole harbor any problems with Indians and do not consider them all anti-Americans.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:

OK. Back to the superpower issue. Our only drawback is that we dont have enough aircraft carriers

Nor do you have enough strategic bombers, enough amphibious forces, enough submarines, enough air-to-air refueling capability, well the list really goes on an on. You do not have the economic and industrial infrastructure required to fight a sustained campaign. I also seriously doubt India has the international pull to garner much world support, especially in terms of anyone actually contributing forces, if it felt the need to exercise its national policy against anybody but a neighboring nation. An interesting obxervation: the world's four greatest military powers (US, UK, China, and Russia) all have a very robust, indigenous arms manufacturing capability.

A fat lot of good your massive strategic force projection has done for you. You cant even handle a bunch of Afghan irregulars. You been at it for nearly a month and the Taliban are still standing.

You don't comprehend the nature of warfare. We are using a measured pace and are in this for the long haul. Before we even started bombing we stated that this would be a lengthy campaign. Afghan irregulars?! Do you know what you are talking about? Well, we've been fighting the Afghan army, so therefore we are fighting Afghan regulars. LOL, yes it has only been a month, what do you expect to happen? These guys aren't sitting in the middle of a desert waiting for us to pound them. Sorry to tell you but warfare is rarely a short thing. We've been lucky recently because most advesaries have quickly accepted defeat, the Taliban on the other hand fail to accept the inevitable so we must actually conduct a real campaign against them, which of course takes time. Remember the Russians were there for seven years. It won't take us near that amount of time. We are patient and the eventual results are not in doubt.

Your elite commandos turn tail and flee at the sight of a few gay Pathans

ROFL!!! I guess you believe any propoganda you read which fits the way you wish things were. I will grant you though, many in the military are still very homophobic, so our soldiers reactions when faced with a bunch of gay Pathans are unpredictable. Seriously though, your willingness to buy into the propoganda belies an ignorance of the way special operations are conducted. Read up on it and get back to me.

Hence your superpower status has been revoked.

Unfortunately for you, being a superpower isn't something you gain through a vote by the rest of the world. I have already layed the foundation for what constitutes a superpower so I have no need to go into it again.
Theoretically speaking if the US went to war with Bihar you guys would know you been in a fight.

I guess I'll just have to take your word for that one. But theoretically speaking, if we were to go to war with Bihar, we would first first have to find it on the map.
Our Bihari musclemen are the best in the world. All those huge ugly fellers you see on WWF have all been imported from Bihar.

The best at what? Don't the Iranians and Turks usually win most of the Olympic weightlifting medals? You call someone with green hair and pink tights a muscleman? We usually have other words to describe someone so attired.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
> This thing wasn't accepting my password
Your browser had probably cached the password from your previous avatar. I'd think that you'd have learned how to switch identities more smoothly by now. Keep practicing...
> The recent McDonald's lawsuit thread
"Recent"? I guess you operate on a different timescale than me.
From your tone and past history I assume that you don't really believe half the things you say, but are saying them just to get a rise out of people. If you actually want any particular point of yours to be taken seriously, you might want to tone down the silliness elsewhere. Right now it's too much guesswork to decide which things you really believe, and which you do not.
But, to respond to the point you started off with - I agree that Tony and some others have had a tendency to label anyone who disagrees with them as "anti-American", and I certainly disagree with Tony on this in many cases. Overuse of the "anti-American" label comes off as paranoid and reactionary, and undermines our (USA's) relations with the rest of the world.
> I fail to understand by what leap of imagination have they
> tagged the Indians here as Taliban supporters.
I hope you're not still operating under the belief that Michael Ernest was calling you (or your alternate (original) ID) a Taliban supporter? We dealt with that issue some time ago - it was a simple mixup of pronouns. More generally, I don't really see Indians, specifically, being tagged as supporters of the Taliban - I see anyone who disagrees with a hard-line US stance being tagged as anti-American. (Which I agree is wrong - I just think you're confused about the motivation here.) It just so happens that Indians are the largest group of folks on this forum who speak up against US policies, so they're the ones most commonly tagged as "anti-American".
Say - was that the motivation behind your last incarnation? An experiment to see how people reacted if you had a different (apparent) ethnicity? It might have been more convincing if Mapraputa hadn't had to correct the spelling of your name.
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited November 04, 2001).]


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Protest. The spelling was correct, it was simply unusual rare variant.


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
But theoretically speaking, if we were to go to war with Bihar, we would first first have to find it on the map.

Another protest. This extremely offensive statement should be edited/deleted/censored/whatever.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Hah! What I like about Jason's comment is that it's extremely flexible - depending on one's mood, you can interpret it as a put-down on Bihar, or Americans, or Mapraputa. It's like a Rorschach insult.
Nanhesru Ningyake
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 29, 2000
Posts: 452
>This message should not be seen as an endorsement of Thinku Mama. While I generally disapprove of him I felt it was my moral obligation as the "Equaliser" of Meaningless Drivel to lend him temporary support
I am so grateful for your temporary support, Laloo. Keep up the good work You disapprove of me?!!! I knew it. I should have apologized to you for calling you a dork
So how long will this temporary support last, BTW? If you observed, in the other thread, I toned down my attack by actually calling Tony a "nice guy". While it was indeed sincere, the toning down was done because I didn't want to be the only dog barking. Glad to have your company now

Pourquoi voulez-vous mon nom?
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Heh... "Rorschach insult"... I like that.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Another protest. This extremely offensive statement should be edited/deleted/censored/whatever.

C'mon Map! The "gay Pathans" comment was much more offenstive!
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Well Jason, Laloo did explicitly define the sense of "gay" in that sentence. It's not his fault if you missed it.
> While it was indeed sincere, the toning down was done because
> I didn't want to be the only dog barking.
Wimp. I'm disappointed though - I thought it was because we had successfully distracted you by tossing some truly meaningless Drivel into the thread. I know you eat that stuff up.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Well Jason, Laloo did explicitly define the sense of "gay" in that sentence. It's not his fault if you missed it.

Heh, you caught me. I didn't miss it, I just chose to conveniently ignore it.
Nanhesru Ningyake
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 29, 2000
Posts: 452
>Wimp. I'm disappointed though
Just stay tuned. There's more coming
>was that the motivation behind your last incarnation
BTW, honestly, how did you figure out that Laloo's previous incarnation was P.I. Kurchatov, Jim?
Paul Stevens
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Joined: May 17, 2001
Posts: 2823
The IP is available for the sheriff and the forum moderator. In this forum, I personally think it should be there for all to see.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
The IP is available for the sheriff and the forum moderator. In this forum, I personally think it should be there for all to see.

Actually, a better solution would be to either disallow anonymous posting, or even better, have a search that displayed users with the same ip, without actually revealing that ip. I know this isn't part of UBB, but would be simple enough to write. Personally I refuse to post on any message board that displays my ip, but that's just me.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
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Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
I also oppose Paul S. idea.
Current state of affairs gives those of us who can see IPs a warm feeling of intellectual superiority
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
From the same article.
The US military has categorically
rejected these allegations.
"The force that went in on the
ground, there were a couple of
parachute injuries that we expected...
and there were some other wounds
from some... of the activity that they
were undergoing, but none of it was
inflicted by the enemy," said General
Richard Myers, the chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff.
"I've not read the article but I've
heard that it portrays that we ran
into some stiff resistance - that's
simply not true. There was no
resistance, the Taleban were in
complete disarray," General Myers
said.
Exactly what did take place is, at this
stage, impossible to assess.
But if special forces operations grow
in intensity inside Afghanistan, this
kind of claim and counter-claim is
likely to become an increasingly
familiar aspect of this conflict.

So, according to the article, even if you believe their version of it as opposed to the military's, some Spec For entered a compound, searched it, and upon leaving encountered resistance. You don't expect the Taliban to fight back? No US were killed, maybe 12 out of 100 were slightly injured. I still fail to see what your point is?
I reiterate my plea that you go and read up a bit on how special forces are used and what types of missions they conduct before trying to make a point on something you know little about.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:
Your elite commandos turn tail and
flee at the sight of a few gay Pathans

Just thought I'd take this opportunity to ask if you've been watching the news lately and seen how great your gay Pathans have been doing. They've lost every major city in the country for the most part, turning tail and running as the bombing has decimated them. Kandahar is supposedly on the verge of collapse. The commanders of the gay Pathans are fleeing for the mountains or for Pakistan. The cowardly gay Pathans in many instances are trying to blend in with columns of refugees. There is now talk that some of the gay Pathans want to hand over bin Laden for the reward money.
They tried to keep eight western aid workers as hostages, but couldn't even hang on to them as a combination of Northern Alliance and US Special Forces rescued them. Reports are now surfacing of US Special Forces operating with impunity in southern Afghanistan. The US Special Forces are performing interdictions, setting up roadblocks, performing raids, gathering intelligence (supposedly the aid workers had been under surveillance by US forces prior to the rescue), targetting for US aircraft (building full of high-level Al-Queda was destroyed), and doing cave-to-cave search and destroy missions (they are supposedly even collapsing the caves in many instances).
How proud you must be feeling of your gay Pathans.
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944


PS. I wasn't anti-american until I cam here and was turned into an US baiter by the javaranch americans. This proves that it is possible to brainwash people into almost any kind of belief.


It's not hard to train a rat to do easy things.
Now run along, you are almost out of that maze. ;D

Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:

I am just anti-american

Yes, envy and an inferiority complex can have that effect sometimes.
Besides most of the fighting was done by the Northern Alliance and British soldiers.

Newsflash: The UK just put troops on the ground, like yesterday or something. The only other soldiers with the NA were American. Actually the damage was done from the US bombing campaign. The NA was then easily able to collapse an already broken enemy. This is how wars are meant to be fought in the 21st century. Combined operations are now the norm, not the exception. That is of course assuming you have a capable air force at your disposal.

PS. I wasn't anti-american until I cam here and was turned into an US baiter by the javaranch americans.

You are without doubt a master baiter. As far as being an anti-American, I'm sure it was within you all along, you most likely just needed a focus for it.
I'm sure years of looking abroad and feeling envy for our culture must have made an impact, longing for a way of life that you could never in your own country. Possibly you entertained a perception (rightly or wrongly) that the US thought your nation was of little significance and held it in low-esteem? Maybe this perception of yours that the most powerful nation on earth might have this view of your country, which you viewed as an equal, raises some hostility? Maybe a string of overwhelming military victories from the 1990's to the present over those who you admired and held in high regard has highlighted in your mind how incapable your own forces might really be, and for some reason this disturbs you?
I'm not a psychologist, but we are all here for you man. All I can do is make wild guesses as to your motivations in the hope that through recognition comes healing. These things don't have to weigh so heavily on your mind. Enjoy and be thankful for what you have. Jealousy is a dead-end road on the wrong side of town, don't turn down it. But we can get through this together man. The first step towards getting through this is admitting you have a problem, then we just take things one day at a time.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:

This news item confirms my story about about the Delta Force , Happy Pathan encounter. This anti US propaganda thing seems to be some kind of fad. First it was the Indians (Times of India ) now the Brits (BBC) are at it too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1638000/1638830.stm

That article is now 10 days old and we have heard nothing about any serious American casualties and Special Forces have continued to operate in Afghanistan. I think it is safe to say that the article was hogwash.

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Posts: 10065
"you guys are much better" - is it Rorschach compliment?
Is it a compliment or is it an insult?
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:
Maybe you have a point there. Though I did turn down a job offer in the US once, in hindsight it appears it wasn't a wise choice.

No it was a very wise choice. Thank you.

What kind of life can I expect to lead there ? I am a man of simple needs. I dont expect much out of life. Just a room to sleep in , another one to eat in , another one to read in , another one to play billiards in and a little shed outside the house to keep my polo ponies in. I heard it's cold in the US so maybe a heated indoor swimming pool ? I like a little garden as well , but it should be big enough to have a little artificial lake so that I can go rowing sometimes.

The really funny thing is, none of these things are out of the reach of those who work hard and save. The heated pool would probably be outdoors, but you do not have to be rich to own any of these things. And this is the difference, we are not tied down at birth as to what we may become. Everybody has the potential to fulfill their expectations. It doesn't always happen that way, but it can.
This "American way of life" thing is just a myth. Maybe American busboys and waiters live better than Indian busboys and waiters. So who cares. I am neither a waiter nor a busboy, nor do I see my career moving in that direction unless things get really bad .

Not that you really have any basis to make this judgement on, since you have never lived here. Actually American busboys and waiters probably live relatively better than most of your society. I'm not saying that to be negative, but even our poor may sometimes be considered well-off by the standards of many countries (the poor of many nations do not have phones, television, automobiles for example). But anyway, you lack a basic understanding of what it means to live here, which is fine, but try not to speak authoratatively on something you can know nothing about. Many people all over the world are happy with their situations simply because they know nothing better, or the goals that they have to strive for are relatively low. As long as you are happy, more power to you. Ignorance, as they say, is bliss.
Wrong again. Being anti-american does does not mean being pro-taliban or pro-sadddam or whatever. Just to quote an example. Suppose Steve �the Rifleman� Flemmi had a problem with Francis �Cadillac� Salemme and they start a war. If I were to make a few statements criticising Flemmi it does not mean I support Salemme.

Thank you, you actually almost attempted to make a logical argument. I applaud you. Now if only we get more logic and reasoning, and less emotion and provocation then things would be much more entertaining. I'd much rather have a good old-fashined debate as opposed to defending mindless provocations, but either way I am up to the task. Oh wait, never mind, your position cannot be defended logically, or at least not that we have seen so far from any of your ilk.

[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited November 17, 2001).]
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Laloo, what are you doing?
Many people all over the USA were happy with their situations
simply because they knew nothing better. They never thought
about impressionists and they never knew where to put a dutch
master. Their goals that they had to strive for were relatively
low. (Ignorance, as they say, is bliss). They were happy. You
ruined their happiness.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
They never thought
about impressionists and they never knew where to put a dutch
master.

I don't do impressions, and I assume a Dutch Master goes in the garden.
But otherwise you are right Map. Almost makes you long for the good ol' days of Communism, doesn't it?
Mapraputa Is
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Posts: 10065
I changed definition. "You guys are much better" was a Trojan compliment.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:
I was filled with a sense of outrage and toyed for a moment with the idea of joining Greenpeace to fight against this sort of thing

What happened? Did it require too much conviction, or too much self-sacrifice?
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited November 19, 2001).]
 
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subject: The "anti American" paradigm.