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PAKISTAN AND IT-PAKISTAN

Hussain
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 110
Hi and Salam ,
Hope Everybudy is Fine and Doing Well in Java or in their Respective Fields .
The Best Comunity I have Ever seen on the net And that is Java Ranch.
Well I think now Quite a Number of People Know That , We in Pakistan have Started A Eductaional Movement named Operation Badar
and We Are Very Much on A way TO change PAkistan in TO IT-PAkistan .SCJP's SCWCD's , XML and Related Technologies, OOAD/UML,J2EE and Much More .
The Problem Writing This that I want to Know How DO u Regard PAKISTAN?(What do You think Pakistan is ?)
And What DO u think Can we change Pakistan into IT-Pakistan in near-future?
Bye and Allah hafiz,
regards ,
[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Muhammad Hussain ]

Muhammad Hussain<br />Sun Certified Java Programer (SCJP2)<br />Sun Certified Web Component Devloper SCWCD
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
If you wanna make pakistan as IT-Pakistan then i think the first step would be that you stop using SALAM and Allah Hafiz in every mail or posts.. cause here we talk plain english.. so follow that rule first.. and then i think you might be passing step 1
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by <admirer>:
If you wanna make pakistan as IT-Pakistan then i think the first step would be that you stop using SALAM and Allah Hafiz in every mail or posts.. cause here we talk plain english.. so follow that rule first.. and then i think you might be passing step 1

Do you mean "because here we speak plain English"? I also don't think "wanna" falls under the category of "plain English". How about the lack of capitalization and opting for "1" instead of one? So really your English is piss poor, and assuming you are a native speaker, that's pretty pathetic.
Anyway, despite being an ignorant comment to make to begin with, as far as English being required as the path to IT success for a particular country, I think I should point out that the Chinese, Japanese, and Russians (and others) might disagree with this assertion.
Further, just because somebody makes polite salutations that you may not be overly familiar with, the context is clear and so therefore the original poster's intentions are clear. Unless Salam happens to mean "may you rot in hell" and "Allah Hafiz" means "may god strike you down where you stand", which I am pretty sure is not the case, the poster was just being polite. So to sum it up, don't be a dingus.
[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Soldier, go back to your military base, shut up and follow your orders!
Mark Fletcher
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 08, 2001
Posts: 897
Hi,
With the software industry currently in a slump and, imho, destined for commoditization, would it not be better for Pakistan to invest in an industry more cutting edge such as BioTech or even research into NanoTechnology?
Best Regards,
Mark


Mark Fletcher - http://www.markfletcher.org/blog
I had some Java certs, but they're too old now...
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
That's an interesting propostition. But I guess before trying to establish one's self as a leader in any particular industry, biotech and IT included, you would have to have the work force. In order to home grow the work force you have to have the educational infrastructure to support that industry as well. Contrary to popular opinion, software professionals, nor professionals in any other industry, are not grown overnight.
What I suspect is actually a driving force behind the IT booms in many countries like India and China, American outsourcing, is hopefully only a passing fad. I have heard conflicting reports on this, but from what I understand, many of the companies in the industry who have sent their development projects offshore are becoming disillusioned with the results of this. If this is the case, and the US reverses this disturbing trend, what will that mean to the IT industries of these other countries if American contracts dry up?
[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
Mark Fletcher
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 08, 2001
Posts: 897

That's an interesting propostition. But I guess before trying to establish one's self as a leader in any particular industry, biotech and IT included, you would have to have the work force. In order to home grow the work force you have to have the educational infrastructure to support that industry as well. Contrary to popular opinion, software professionals, nor professionals in any other industry, are not grown overnight.

I guess then the solution would be for Pakistan to embark on a long term education program. They would be able to fund this if they abandoned their nuclear weapons program?
Razi Abbas
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 30, 2002
Posts: 9
Muhammad,
I admire the effort and initiative that you and your team is taking to educate the Pakistani work-force in these new technologies. But as we produce more and more of SCJP's, SCWDS's etc. in Pakistan, we have to realize that these certifications are good for quick learning of new technologies, but they are not a substitute of well-rounded technical education which is absolutely essential for establishing any technical industry like IT, BioTech etc. Thats where the government of Pakistan needs to step in and fund openining of new schools and universities. When I went back to Pakistan last year, I noticed computer institutes opening up on every other street offering training for all sorts of different computer languages, and while they play an important part in educating people in a specific skill, it is the research environment of universities and colleges that provides the ideas and entrepreneurs to anchor the industry. Ofcourse there are exceptions of people who didn't have to go through the college and who have done really well, but as I said they are exceptions.
While individuals (like people of Operation Badar) are trying their best to do their part, the government abosolutely has to step up. The out-dated high school curriculum that stresses memorization needs to be completely revamped into something that encourages creative and independent thinking from an early age. The funding in technical research is almost negligible. It is a matter of prioritization and hopefully the givernment of Pakistan will realize the importance of education and put that somewhere on the top of the list.
I am bringing all this up because you said "We Are Very Much on A way TO change PAkistan in TO IT-PAkistan ", and while you maybe doing your best its not going to happen unless Pakistan dramatically improves its educational system. I admire the people who have left the US and the western countries to go back to their communities in India, China, Paksitan etc., and work for their educational improvement, and hopefully one day I can do the same.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Hmm Jason seemed too pissed off. if you actually trying to lick a** of the original poster then you should go ahead and do that immediately.
And here people from different parts post reply's just imagine all of them using their own language?. it was just a suggestion from my side and no third dick(as you too used this word)has anything to do with that. i didnt use any foul language as you did. i just suggested. and i feel pity on you cause you take such things too much seriously and also thank god for not giving an attitude like you . anyways . get some ice and sit on it so that you will cool Bottom Up. cause the fire is somewhere down there.
bye n take care while sitting on the ice
Roy Ben Ami
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2002
Posts: 732
i have to agree with admirer on this one.
he didnt curse or use bad language, he just stated his LEGITIMATE opinion which he is entitled to.
the one who turned it personal and foul wasnt him.
Paul Stevens
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 17, 2001
Posts: 2823
Jason stated his LEGITIMATE opinion . He may have been overly short with the ANONYMOUS poster but did not use foul language. He told him not to be a dick.
Jamie Robertson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 09, 2001
Posts: 1879

I think Jason gets more riled up over the fact that you hide behind an anonymous name like a coward, instead of expressing your opinions using your real identity. If you had used your real name, I bet his comments would have been much less harsh. You know enough about the rules around here for us to know that you are not just a passer by.
[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie Robertson ]
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

Hello and Salam,
Thanks to Admirer, I will now begin every post with Salam.


GenRocket - Experts at Building Test Data
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
I'm not sure how the anonymous respondant's rude comment was in any way legitimate. If belittling somebody who asks an honest question, simply because he uses a couple of pleasantries that someone isn't familiar with is legitimate, then so be it.
I've seen people use words like ciao, bonjour, and shalom interspersed with their English communication and that is usually seen as acceptable, so what is the difference here? Does anybody truly believe that Mr Hussain altering his salutations will lead to an IT boom in Pakistan? So in reality, the anonymous respondant was just being needlessly rude and beligerant.
Now Mr Hussain had a legitimate question that had some importance to him. He was polite and complimentary to the community. I only responded because I didn't want to leave him to interpret the silence after the belittling comments were directed at him as tacit approval of the anonymous individual's comments. I also appreciate the irony of somebody who berates one person's lack of "plain English", yet they possess poor English skills themselves. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.
While I may have been short in making my point (although never profane), it is my own opinion that people who take shots at others while hiding behind pseudo-anonymity do not deserve any respect or common courtesy in return. But I wasn't "pissed" or even angered, I just don't believe in holding back when replying to the anonymous crowd.
Now enough of this distraction, I think the on-topic posts are much more worthy of comment.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Razi Abbas' comments seem to be pretty much on the money. Certifications and the skills required to attain them focus on a narrow skill set and not the over-arching fundamentals that a competent work force really requires. Which as mentioned earlier, all goes back to the education system. Hopefully the overhaul will begin here, and not be focused on some attempt at a quick fix to get people familiar with individual IT technologies, such as Java.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
For future reference, "don't be a dick" is over the line, IMO. "Don't be rude" would have been OK. Of course a response with "if you actually trying to lick a** of the original poster" is no better. A general guidline that I hope will work for everyone - if you respond to a rude post with a rude post, you're not helping the situation, and could well find your post deleted regardless of its other merits. If you reply to a rude post with a polite one, you're setting a better example, and the rudeness of the other poster stands out in contrast.
In this case, I'm leaving the original posts unedited for now because (a) it still seems relatively low-intensity, and (b) it think the thread is more useful as an example this way. If I clean it up, no one will know what I'm talking about in this post. But I'm hoping it won't continue to distract from the original intended topic of the conversation. Cheers...


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Hussain
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 110
Salam and Hello and Namestay,
thankx ,
I want to Disclose a Fact that Microsoft Vise-President is A pakistani named Jawed Khakhi .
We are on a path to Change TO IT-PAKISTAN.
Bye and Allah hafiz and Jee Ramm Jee Kee
Razi Abbas
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 30, 2002
Posts: 9
Muhammad,
I think you are just not getting the point that we are trying to make. First I would like to know what is your definition of "IT-PAKISTAN". If this defintion means finding some pakistanis in senior positions in big US companies, then I guess you are probably close to realizing your dream. While I do feel proud as a Pakistani when someone from there makes it big here in the US, but definitely this is not the barometer I want to use to judge the progress in Pakistan, or for that matter any other country, especially when these people are very rare to find.
Hussain
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 110
Salam and Hello ,
I was Just saying that "Pakistan Have Talent Loads and Loads of Talent"..
one Pakistani Mehammod Bhati is the Best Fashion Designer in Paris .
I want people to know we have tromendus amout of Capibility ...Just need right Direction ,
Allah hafiz and Byeeee,
Rob Ross
Bartender

Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Posts: 2205
I hope no one is offended by this non-technology compliment, but I have to say I own many nice clothes that were made in Pakistan. They are good quality, and look sharp. Just an observation.


Rob
SCJP 1.4
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
My opinions:
Salam : generally means "Peace be upon you" in arabic. other close meaning are "G'day", "hello, how are you?". Its just a word in arabic for saying hello.
Salom: same as "salam" and generally used by jews.
ciao, bonjour = similar
Shama Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 14, 2000
Posts: 185
I want people to know we have tromendus amout of Capibility ...Just need right Direction ,

I think there's ample research that's been done to prove that improving the IT knowledge/infrastructure and so on doesn't necessarily directly affect the move of a 3rd world nation to a developed nation status. Like some of the above posters mentioned, it is the basics that we've got to work on. For example, a 100% literacy rate, economical stability in the country by applying simple economics and eliminating fraud and corruption, and better security in the country.
You are right that there is a lot of talent in Pakistan but as far as I know most of it is leaving the country to make a buck and be able to enjoy the buck - meaning Pakistan is being brain drained.
I would love to go back and help out but have heard many sad stories of people who went and came back within 5 years because they had a hard time dealing with corrupt government officials when just trying to set up a legit business or even file a report on a stolen car.
Of course, most of the source of my news is from Karachi. And it's also understood that many countries in the world suffer from similar circumstances and I am not singling pakistan out.
I replied only because when I went to Pakistan about 10 years ago, it broke my heart to see 8 and 10 year olds selling junk in the markets. It broke my heart further to realize that educated and well-placed people accept this fact and take advantages of it so calmly.
I think the Operation Badr is badly misled in that it fails to realize that first you got to get all the kids in school and teach them their reading, writing, and math.
[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Shama Khan ]

Shama
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by Muhammad Hussain:
Salam and Hello ,
I was Just saying that "Pakistan Have Talent Loads and Loads of Talent"..

Muhammad -
I don't really care where you're from. I don't care where anybody is from. If you're looking for a true America, look for it in the fact that we don't care what nationality comprises the senior management of Microsoft, or Sun, or the local convenience store.
If you want to promote Pakistan as a market for talent, then do that. If you want to say Pakistan is great, well then, get ready for whatever proportions of abuse and affirmation you might inspire -- you are, after all, inviting people to agree or disagree with you.
Who cares what opinions there are about an IT-Pakistan? Make it happen, if that's what you really want.
[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Hi and Ram Ram Bhaiya
May God fulfill your dream of IT-Pakistan.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by Jamie Robertson:
I think Jason gets more riled up over the fact that you hide behind an anonymous name like a coward, instead of expressing your opinions using your real identity. If you had used your real name, I bet his comments would have been much less harsh. You know enough about the rules around here for us to know that you are not just a passer by.
[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie Robertson ]


What a discrimination by jamie... i think you should get a Best Java Ranch Discriminator award.
Just cause a new poster is not registered he doesnt get respect?.. you should rethink on this .. what you mean to say is that only those who are registered will get respect and polite replies?.. others are entitled to rude ones? .. by saying so you are abetting Jason .. i guess.. anyways .. no point in explaning more cause you yourself might have got the gist
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
So really your English is piss poor, and assuming you are a native speaker, , that's pretty pathetic

I feel SORRY for ranch hand Member # 5255.
You could have said all this in much better manner ... And you know better english then people whose primary language is not ENGLISH. :roll:
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I also appreciate the irony of somebody who berates one person's lack of "plain English", yet they possess poor English skills themselves. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

What do u want to say ? My english is weak OR week

Can Map be wrong? (why not after all she is human)
[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
agar paanke IT ke IT Pakistan karnoo aaye te jaldi kayo kaa ta wat lage wendhi
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
so i think i am allowed to write the above post?.. is it .. just like you guys used ciao.. etc..
that my language for a polite reply..
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
POSTED BYE JASON MEN....
while hiding behind pseudo-anonymity do not deserve any respect or common courtesy in return

then why is javaranch giving such an option to users?.. if using such facilites enranges ppl like you then its time that javaranch pulls this option out of its site?..
Obviously, it is there to be used for better purpose than attack with rude comments which i think you started. But you should accept the fact that a person with so much posts (903) uses foul words and yet acts as if hes a saint . You should go and check the javaranch rules. For me the word dick is nothing to be worried about but i very well know that one should not use such a language in a public forum.

But I wasn't "pissed" or even angered, I just don't believe in holding back when replying to the anonymous crowd.

as the saying goes....
Weaker the arguments, Stronger are the words ... thats all what i have to say to this statement of yours.


You know enough about the rules around here for us to know that you are not just a passer by.

rules what rules.. i dont think that posting on this forum requires some rules?.. till now none of you both (JASON & JAMIE) have followed the rules. Stop boasting about rules and try following them yourselves . Jamie you talking as if you have been a part of the rules team . i bet on it that you never ever had taken a look on the rules neither have i. But javaranch being a very reputed site and also by reading the replies of other people any naive user can easily guess the rules. pity on you that you havent had a feeling about that.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
Hello and Salam,
Thanks to Admirer, I will now begin every post with Salam.

heres one more person who is simply trying to be good in fellow ranchers eyes. Let me explain why i feel this way. I dont have objection to Mr. Mahummad using SALAM and Allah Hafiz.( SALAM to you too Mr. Mahumad and all the best for your project.). Now back to what Gregg had replied.
he says i will begin every post with salam. by this one gets a feeling that WOW GREGG BELIEVES IN ALL RELIGION and HE's SUCH A GEM OF A PERSON. but other than adding SALAM to each post try changing your name to SALIM GREGG BOLINGER or GREGG BOLINGER KHAN.. will you do that ?.. if you actually do that i will fly all the way from my place to your place , meet you and accept my mistake.
( Please dont get me wrong .. i mean the guys whose names have SALIM and KHAN in it . I am just trying to give an explain how including SALAM by gregg does not help him )
Gregg if you do that you will be a true supporter of all religions.. and i BET you wont do that . cuase you know the consequences of changing your name to that .
Its foolish of people from different religions in asian countries fighting with each other. I am ashamed of what is happening here in my country.I have many friends who are muslims and believe some are my close friends. but i just dont keep shouting that " Hey this guy's name is Salim Khan. He's my best friend. So dont you think i am great? ".
i hope you understand my point Gregg and also all the supporters of gregg.
bye and take care all.
NOTE:- please dont get mad if you have SALIM and KHAN in your name. I used those words to make a point that let your deeds speak rather than your mouth or words ( on screen )
David O'Meara
Rancher

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 13459

"admirer",
you are now seriously off-topic.
Please try to stay to the topic for this thread, or start a new thread to discuss your personal issues with individuals at the Ranch.
It is likely that this new thread will be deleted, but atleast you won't be spoiling anyone elses attempts to have a conversation.
Dave
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by David O'Meara:
"admirer",
you are now seriously off-topic.
Please try to stay to the topic for this thread, or start a new thread to discuss your personal issues with individuals at the Ranch.
It is likely that this new thread will be deleted, but atleast you won't be spoiling anyone elses attempts to have a conversation.
Dave

Hello dave
Well if you want me to accept my mistake .. i actually accept and apologise for what i have written but let the guys speak to whom i have pointed out their flaws.Other than giving me warnings of which i cant do anything but stare at the warnings. I dont have any personal fights with anyone but me just trying to get things clear.
Nor do i intend to hurt anyones feelings. anyways bye and peace.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
To all. I am an idiot and do not know how to register and get my own display name.
Angela Poynton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 02, 2000
Posts: 3143
Closing this thread because it's seriously now off topic and just getting silly!


Pounding at a thick stone wall won't move it, sometimes, you need to step back to see the way around.
 
wood burning stoves
 
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