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Copyright sucks!

Mapraputa Is
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For two major reasons.
First, it's amoral. Books shouldn't be sold and buyed, they should not be priced. Books are our friends. Would you price, buy and sell friends?
Books should be accessible for everybody. Thanks to the scanning technologies, many of prominent intellectual works are scanned, put in HTML form and available in Russian on the Internet. And I like it!
Once somebody gave a link to Gang of Four "Patterns" book on AW FTP server and I downloaded it. I didn't know it was illegal or maybe it wasn't -- I am not sure. Later they took it out, so I guess it wasn't their intention to disseminate it for free? Anyway, later we talked with one of our moderators (retired by now) about patterns book and I mentioned this one and said that I can send it to him/her. This person agreed and I sent. Yes, I did it. Because I liked the book and wanted more people to read it. I think, it's good for a book when more people have it. However, this undermined my "morale integrity" as Michael Ernest would say. I had an intuitive feeling that I was doing a right thing, yet the fact that the authors potentially lost few dollars bothered me. I was silently suffering from this dilemma until today, when the solution was found.
Second (more important) reason.
We all are witnesses of the birth of Semantic Web. I believe, the next step in books evolution is E-form. This makes quotations easier, allows linking, new forms of texts organization, even new genres etc. etc. you can easily imagine all new possibilities (easy and solid link statistics for one thing). Current copyright laws preclude this line of development and ultimately slow down intellectual progress.
Solution.
Jason's "War on Stupidity" was that flash of lightning that brought an answer. First, we are making all books free. Next, for to pay the authors we calculate how much money the country is spending on books now and then pay authors proportionally to book downloads. We can even go further and adjust payment according to readers average rank! Many other schema are possible.
How to allocate tax burden - depending on stupidity, say, on IQ factor. Or, better yet, IQ/education. Illiterate persons would be freed from the tax, and so would Russians, because they do not use English for communication anyway.
Well, Ok, I am kidding. "Stupidity Tax" has little chances to be approved and there is no good way to define and calculate stupidity. Otherwise it's a good solution, I think.


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Anthony Villanueva
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Posts: 1055
Call me old fashioned, but I like reading a good solid book in my hands, and I enjoy the smell and texture of the paper (especially the old hardbound ones). I'm going to be sorry when these guys become obsolete.
David O'Meara
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Posts: 13459

Originally posted by Anthony Villanueva:
Call me old fashioned, but I like reading a good solid book in my hands, and I enjoy the smell and texture of the paper (especially the old hardbound ones). I'm going to be sorry when these guys become obsolete.

I was going to start a conversation on the same point earlier this week but got side tracked.
I agree. As unpopular 'hard copy' is in the electronic age, I want it. Of the 20 or so elecrtonic books I've collected, I still find I have to print them out to read them.
I have a friend who whould say 'ew, hard-copy', but it's what I want.
I want to read on the bus.
I want to read in front of the TV.
I want to read in bed.
I have a laptop, which I use to store them, but reading from the lappy or even a desk top is.... icky.
Which has little to do with copyright...
Anthony Villanueva
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Damn, I knew I was overlooking something...
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065

Who was talking about killing "real" things? There is "Thinking in Java" on the Internet, but you can read printed copy if you want!
You are missing printed books -- you know what? I am missing e-books! I want to be able quickly to copy&paste quote, if I need it. And have you ever tried to find a place you remember you read but forget where? How about clicking on links to online info instead of typing URL in browser?
"Of the 20 or so elecrtonic books I've collected, I still find I have to print them out to read them" - it's a matter of habit. I remember, first I didn't like reading from screen either and printed everything, now it's not a problem.
[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
Anthony Villanueva
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Ah, the Modern Woman. I guess you find a love letter written as email as equally romantic as a handwritten one?
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
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"Handwritten" love letter - what is it? Well... if somebody really wants, he can Handwrite a letter and send JPG, I suppose... :roll:
Of course, now I wonder how you put up with printed books - wouldn't you prefer old good "handwritten" ones?
Anthony Villanueva
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Touche. I had a sinking feeling you would say that as soon as pressed the button.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

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Well, thank you, but how is it that nobody commented my main point - making books free?
Let's liberate our books!
David O'Meara
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Posts: 13459

I'd say "Books cost money because paper costs money"
but then I think this is not the point you're trying to make.
Certainly there would be less money in the publishing industry and people would be driven to write for the love of writing as opposed to 'the money', but having a love for writing still won't ensure quality material. I love writing, and have you seen any of the rubbish I produce?
Anthony Villanueva
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When the Internet first came out I thought it was the greatest thing because all the books I ever wanted to read were available. Well some of them were, but after a while reading them became (as David put it)... icky.
So I guess there are a lot of old-fashioned people out there. Maybe we ought to wait a generation or two.
Also, people intend to make a shekel or two when they write a book (even if it doesn't), so unless there's a working schema in place for repaying all that labor, authors are going to shy away from e-books. Have to be practical these days .
Mapraputa Is
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Certainly there would be less money in the publishing industry and people would be driven to write for the love of writing as opposed to 'the money'
Why would be there less money in the publishing industry ? And why would people write for the love of writing - the only difference that instead of paying money directly readers would do it indirectly. And after reading a book I can say how much I think it should cost!
but having a love for writing still won't ensure quality material.
But it's the same now, I suppose?
Well some of them were, but after a while reading them became (as David put it)... icky.
So what happened?
Also, people intend to make a shekel or two when they write a book (even if it doesn't), so unless there's a working schema in place for repaying all that labor, authors are going to shy away from e-books. Have to be practical these days
OMG... That was the whole point!
"for to pay the authors we calculate how much money the country is spending on books now and then pay authors proportionally to book downloads" - to get these money we introduce a new tax.
[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
Anthony Villanueva
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So what happened?

It wasn't as fun.

to get these money we introduce a new tax.

A new tax... (groan) So, who pays and how much?
David O'Meara
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Posts: 13459

I still don't see it. If people have a choice not to pay for something, they won't. There are some industries based on the kindness of strangers (domations and volunteers) but they are the exception rather than the rule.
An even bigger 'no' to the concept of taxing or any other government involvement in the process. Why bother allowing the people money at all if the government decides what they are allowed to do with it and what its worth.
If we add 'publishing' into the list of things managed by the governemnt, it'll go the same way as education, defence, health etc etc. That is, next time the government needs to save some cash they'll take it from the publishing section but still try to provide the same services.
Anthony Villanueva
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Hmm. It's beginning to sound suspiciously socialistic...
Mapraputa Is
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Why bother allowing the people money at all if the government decides what they are allowed to do with it and what its worth.
No! Government doesn’t decide anthing, only provides money (automatically) based on, for example, downloads statistics,
Hmm. It's beginning to sound suspiciously socialistic...
In fact, it is.
Are you sure all socialistic is bad? For example, college education used to be free in my country, and even worse, government paid you money so you could somehow support yourself during your studies. Actually, "A" student got minimal wage, so at least they wouldn't die. Now when I am reading about all these crazy debts college graduates have... I dunno. It looks to me that this society isn't interested in encouraging its member to get higher educaton I read that about 70% of students in my local University work, aren't students supposed to study? Well, I myself worked when I was a student and I know what kind of education it is.
Michael Ernest
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All the books I use in electronic form are for reference. Anything I want to sit down and study or enjoy I want in hard form. e-material is just not that compelling.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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If the government is paying for something then the government will want to some input into the publishing system. Do you really think the government is going to want to pay smut peddlers? Or racist tracts? Of course not. So who gets paid will be determined by whether they pass the govt's test, whatever that may be. No thanks. Let's leave it right where it is, thank you.
I also hate e-books. Have you ever tried to read one in the bath tub?


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Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Are you sure all socialistic is bad?

Yep. Pretty sure.
Even in the case of a "free" higher education. We even have anecdotal proof for this. The US arguably has the best university system in the world. People from all over the world recognize this and come here to learn. Even in the case of the state sponsored insitutions though, it is not free. I would argue that it is the ability of the schools to generate income that enables them to provide high quality instruction and facilities.
We have a system of grants, scholarships, and loans, that help offset this price for the individual students. In addition, many employers offer tuition reimbursement as a benefit. Also the armed services offer money for tuition, tuition assistance, and in some cases ROTC scholarships as benefits of joining, not to mention the free education offered by military academies if one is able to get in. There are similar programs being offered to students to offset costs. People seeking to be teachers can get their education paid for in some cases if they agree to teach in certain cities (Baltimore does this). Baltimore also has a program where they will pay for your education if you agree to serve some time as a police officer. There are even federal programs like Americorps and Troops-to-Teachers.
The point is that despite a lack of blatantly free education, there are means out there to make education affordable for pretty much anybody who really wants it. It may actually involve some effort and commitment on the part of the student, but that's a good thing. Nothing is ever totaly free, and that which is isn't worth having.
As far as a stupidity tax goes, which you mentioned earlier, we already have one of a sort. It's called the lottery.
[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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And just to clarify the expense...
SUNY at Farmingdale which is a state run school and highly respected charges $1,700 per year for full time students. That means that you can graduate with less than $15,000 in student loans even if you had to borrow the max every semester.
SUNY at Stony Brook, which is an outstanding and highly respected school, charges the same.
Anyone who is truly in need can get grants and loans. Not every school charges $20,000 per year.
Shura Balaganov
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Wanted to post a big reply, exceeded maximum number of images...Back button doesn't work, my message is gone...I guess I do it later. 400th post, and how bad it turned out...
Posted by Jason Menard:
The US arguably has the best university system in the world. People from all over the world recognize this and come here to learn.

Hahaha. EVERY russian I know who went to US to study did it for one and only one reason. TO STAY IN US. Not because educational system is this good. I am sure people all over the world have the same idea in their minds. US is just having it too good, and foreigners are treated nicely in most cases, which makes US an ideal country to immigrate to.
Shura
[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]

Any posted remarks that may or may not seem offensive, intrusive or politically incorrect are not truly so.
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Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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I guess that's why we win all those Nobel Prizes.
Shura Balaganov
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You win all those Nobel Prizes because you "sack" all best and brightes into your country. I don't say it's bad.
I once went through a list of participants of Higher Math conference; they were mostly PhDs and professors from different Universities. I'd say, about 50% of them were of russian origin.
Shura
[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
I once went through a list of participants of Higher Math conference; they were mostly PhDs and professors from different Universities. I'd say, about 50% of them were of russian origin.
In college, I had a Russian for Caluclus 2 and a Romanian for Calculus 3. Neither spoke English very well (although the Russian at least tried to make herself understood). Getting through those classes was a horror!
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
You win all those Nobel Prizes because you "sack" all best and brightes into your country.
Do you mean "suck"? "Sack" means to fire as in, "Sorry, but we need to cut budget so I can get my bonus this year, so you are sacked."
Shura Balaganov
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Thomas, "sack" as in "catch", "put in a big bag"
Ah, my eBooks post...
Since I loose my eyesight at a speed of light (actually, at 80Hz ), I don't think I'll be a big fan of eBooks for long. And I hate TV too, this useless box full of commercials. One of the best things in life is sitting in a shadow of a tree reading a real book (well, close to maybe surfing Javaranch).
I have a confession to make. I don't like buying big fat computer books. Not unless I can expense it... Even RHE, although someone gave me a first edition, I read it mostly in Barnes&Noble. Maybe I should send Michael a buck...
Map, these guys don't know what they are talking about, saying they don't like socializm. They live in it. :roll: I think russians already created this idealistic world where books and software is "almost" free. All we need to do is convince our capitalistic friends that it's not as bad as they think. They suspect that anything free can't be worthy. Understandable, with all these "buy one get one free" ads around :roll:
Or maybe we need to leave them alone, in their oblivion...
Shura
[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
And I hate TV too, this useless box full of commercials.

Hmmm... What's a commerical? I guess you have yet to discover the joy that is Tivo.
where books and software is "almost" free.

Ahh luckily for you and the black market economies of many a nation, there are those of us who can see and understand the big picture and who are willing to continue to pay for things like books, music, and software in order that these things will continue to be produced.
They suspect that anything free can't be worthy.

Basically. As the saying goes, "if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is". Things that are priced below their typical market value are done so for a few reasons: the seller is trying to scam the buyer who will not get what they think they are paying for (or end up paying far more than they expect), the thing being sold is defective or just plain crap and not even worth as much as is being asked, the thing being sold is stolen, or something else is being asked of the buyer beyond the price of the good (like those condo/vacation "deals").
Or maybe we need to leave them alone, in their oblivion...

I could be mistaken, but if socialism were all that great or capitalism were all that bad, I don't think you would be here.
As far as ebooks go, I agree with the folks who like to enjoy the feel of the book in their hand. And aren't used book stores just the greatest things?
Mapraputa Is
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Talking about education system - I also thought about it. My own "education" was little but disappointment.
Once I showed my Fortran program to instructor and she asked "Hm, what is this operator? I've never seen it before..." Well, you know, Fortran didn't have too many operators, not much opportunities to be surprised, really.
Then during the lab I started a compilation task, here came instructor, looked at the monitor and said that I cannot use "job" name to name a job, because "job" is a reserved word in JCL. I could argue that it isn't, but the problem was he was saying at looking at already working task! How can you look at the running program and say that it will not run? While I was thinking what to say, my task finished with code 16 - severe compile errors. "See - I told you!" - said he and I decided I'll better say nothing. "Damaged beyond repair"
Well, Ok, it was Math department and most of them thought programming is second class intellectual activity and didn't take it too seriously... Math professors were good, though, or maybe I was too stupid to understand what they were talking about
Here I took some Java classes in local community college and frankly, I was impressed with level of local community instructors. Is it because education is not free? I do not believe it totally. Partly it's working ethics, and it is partly orthogonal to the "capitalism-socialism" thing.
Shura Balaganov
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Jason Menard: What's a commerical? I guess you have yet to discover the joy that is Tivo
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Well, I don't have "my favorite shows", so there's nothing really I want to record. Maybe a hockey or soccer game. I'd rather occasionally turn it on and let it surprise me However, there's another wonderful device in works, AdZapper, which will block commercials in real time. It is still in Beta, and costs around $600, but their target price is 100 bucks - fits right in my home
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Jason Menard: Ahh luckily for you and the black market economies...
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So, I assume, black market economies are bad, right? How are they different from "white market" economies, pardon? For instance, company "buying" a land and pumping oil out and putting money in their pockets: is that a lesser "crime" than buying something from a flea/gray/black market?
I should even go further. Everyone says that what Enron and WorldCom did was wrong. What people don't realize that it is going on in every company. Accounting is generally based on GAAP, and it goes by the rule of what is not illegal - is OK. So finacial innovations that companies do is only welcomed. Explain me how is that not worse than buying from gray market.
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They suspect that anything free can't be worthy.
Jason Menard: Basically....
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it was ment to be an ironic comment
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Jason Menard: but if socialism were all that great or capitalism were all that bad, I don't think you would be here
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Well, if Russia would be economically stable country, and there were future perspectives, I don't think I would be here. Maybe as a tourist...
Map, you got hosed by JCL gods! Ah, these wonderful ES-1035 boxes, literal copies of IBM mainframes... I have a feeling that IBM had a lot to do with creation of these, no doubt...I mostly hacked through them... I also liked those russian PCs, where we ran Pascal. The ones that got infected with viruses more and more often the closer you were to a deadline...
Shura
[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Shura Balaganov
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Not everything I agree with (and some disagree highly), but stuff worth reading, from Free Software Foundation: Why Software Should Not Have Owners
Shura
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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And if software is free then who writes it? Kids between games of Doom?
Shura Balaganov
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No, Indians and H1Bs. it might only cost you, say, $1Million to create it instead of $10Million. then your can play with price and have a relatively more flexible base...oh, darn, what am i saying
Shura
Anthony Villanueva
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that sure sounds disturbing to me
Anonymous
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Actually,if the project can be done for 1 million in India, then it would be done for half million in Russia.
Russia produces some of the cheapest software around. You can do a wage comparison by doing a search on the net.
R K Singh
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When Shura and Jason are here then its better that I should move to some other thread
R K Singh
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When Shura and Jason are here then its better that I should move to some other thread
Though Map your point is good ....
But why someone will write a book for free.. ask ME whether he will allow his SCJP book to be available on net for free..
Charity is done after earning money....
I dont know how these GNU programmers earn money??
Jason Menard
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So, I assume, black market economies are bad, right? How are they different from "white market" economies, pardon? For instance, company "buying" a land and pumping oil out and putting money in their pockets: is that a lesser "crime" than buying something from a flea/gray/black market?

Black market economies can actually fill a legitimate need. It's not the black market economies that are bad per se, it is selling pirated goods that I have the problem with, since it is pure theft, and not a case where a black market is filling a legitimate need in an economy.
Selling food or fuel, for example, on the black market when the regular market cannot adequately supply those needs, is a legitimate hole in an economy that a black market often fills.
Shura Balaganov
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<slacker>: Actually,if the project can be done for 1 million in India, then it would be done for half million in Russia.
Russia produces some of the cheapest software around.

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And the best, too <slacker>, I didn't want to provoke Jason into an argument here
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Ravish Kumar:Charity is done after earning money....
I dont know how these GNU programmers earn money??

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Amen. I guess (and I might be wrong), GNU programmers get paid by a such of IBM, DOD (Department of Defense) and Universities.
Jason, there's a legitimate need in cheap books and software in the world. I'd personally be buying 3 times what I do now if the prices were 3 times lower. Besides, if you look outside US, there are tons of programmers (as well as software companies) that can hardly afford a $14000 Microsoft yearly subscription. But they are in IT business, so they manage with what they can, and a black market appears. Nothing different from fuel or food market, because sometimes this "black" software is essential for company's survuval (and, therefore, paychecks, and food on the table for their emplyees).
Black market, I believe, is an after-product of "free" market. It is driven by the fact that there's a demand for a cheaper product, but suppliers (most of the time, a single, monopolistic supplier) don't want (or can't) to lower prices. The fact that it might be geared by the theft (because it is the cheapest way to "produce" a product) is just a by-product of this chain of events. Think about that.
Shura
[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Axel Janssen
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Smuggling, neglect of existing law, black markets allways plaid a dynamic part in history. The formation of a black market is absolutedly natural in countries, where the people don't have the money to pay $40 for a computer book. What shall they do? To drink vodka every day turns boring sometimes.
The USA once started as some fur-smuggling outposts on the north atlantic coast . No law covered their existence. Spain had some doubtfully claims on that land.
Taxes won't work. They will create a huge burocracy to messure the book downloads, the IQ, etc. The lawyers of the very rich will find lines of arguments along which their clients have lost their brain in a bar on the Cayman Islands.
Its interesting that a lot of the participants in these discussions replicate the position of their governments in the last round of GATT talks (here: intelectual property rights, last weekend: junction of free trade with human rights)
Mapraputa Is
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And you all thought I am one crazy Russian woman - as usual!
Here it is: "transpublishing"!
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/w3j/s3.nelson.html
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Copyright sucks!