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"Certified, now need Experience??"

Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

I see a lot of people post on the ranch that they have recenlty been certified in Sun something, and now they need to get experience. That confuses me. Are Sun Certs so easy that you don't need any practical JAVA experience to pass them?
Would an employer hire someone who is certified but with no real experience? I know I wouldn't.
I guess I should just go take the tests. But I might have too much experience? HA, just kidding.


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Linda Jones
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Joined: Aug 17, 2002
Posts: 57
I think the problem is to an employer there's a difference in "experience" you gained from studying at home, writing a bit of code etc., and "experience" that you gained from having a Java job.
Both will enable you to pass certification exams, but generally you need the second one to get a job.
Linda
Rufus BugleWeed
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Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
You should go take the test. You should not bother to review any cert books.
You the man. Go for it.
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
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    6

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
You should go take the test. You should not bother to review any cert books.
You the man. Go for it.

ahhh, sarcasm.
Abadula Joshi
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Joined: Sep 01, 2002
Posts: 126
I think experience is the most important thing. Meanwhile, certificate can prove that you have really mastered the java, given blah blah blah much experience. This will stand you out from some mediocre programmers who may have been in java field for many years but have never reached a certain level of skill. If I am an employer, I don't feel safe to hire someone who has certificate but no experience; similarly I don't want to hire a mediocre one with blah blah blah years of experience.
Rufus BugleWeed
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Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
That's not sarcasm. I'd buy you some liquid courage but that's not practical. I'm convinced you'll fail and then you'll have just a little more respect.
Why can they hire new college grads without experience, but they can't hire a 40 year old with a cert? That C, PERL or COBOL programming the 40 year old did has no relevance. :roll:
JeanLouis Marechaux
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Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 906
Gregg,
Don't even try to criticize Sun's certifications.
The certified guys can't stand it. Some will say you are an ignorant, others you are a coward bacuase you don't take the exam.... I've tried a couple of time to question the certification's utility without any success :roll:
But your question is interesting anyway. The problem is some (most of ?) managers are non-technical guys. Is there a risk they prefer a sun certified person without experience rather than a non-certified with real projects background ?
I hope no, but frankly, I'm not sure....

BTW, I have a lot of respect for everybody.
Choosing to take a cert is as respectable as the opposite.
[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Bailey ]

/ JeanLouis<br /><i>"software development has been, is, and will remain fundamentally hard" (Grady Booch)</i><br /> <br />Take a look at <a href="http://www.epfwiki.net/wikis/openup/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Agile OpenUP</a> in the Eclipse community
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
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    6

I did not mean to offend anyone by my post. So I apologize if I did.
I would like to say that in looking at available JAVA jobs, I have not found one that requires or even recomends a Cert. They all want experience. Can someone prove me wrong and show me a job link that differs?
Is this the norm? Are employers really NOT looking at certs for JAVA.
On that note, I actually haven't ran accross any Jobs Offered that require or suggest having a Cert for any Development/Programming type job. Be it C++, C#, JAVA, VB, etc. They all want degrees and experience.
And on THAT note, why are there Certs for Programming and Development? Who started it? MS?
Rufus BugleWeed
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Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
If you have a cert, you are proving, you passed the test. The same test everybody else, worldwide, could have taken.
You did not hire a rummy to take a college course for you.
You did not do some research for a college prof reselling it to the government.
You did not make up lies on your resume.
You did not get a reference to lie for you.
The test does not give you extra credit if you have big boobs and a nice ass.
You demonstrated competence on what the technologies' source says is important.
How can you not find the utility in certs?
Randall Twede
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Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

odd..the thing i noticed is that they all want a bachelors in computer science
the cert test is not that easy. i do kind of feel like it was a waste of money though since i dont have a BS in CS


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Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
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    6

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
If you have a cert, you are proving, you passed the test. The same test everybody else, worldwide, could have taken.
You did not hire a rummy to take a college course for you.
You did not do some research for a college prof reselling it to the government.
You did not make up lies on your resume.
You did not get a reference to lie for you.
The test does not give you extra credit if you have big boobs and a nice ass.
You demonstrated competence on what the technologies' source says is important.
How can you not find the utility in certs?

Do you have a college degree?
Abadula Joshi
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Joined: Sep 01, 2002
Posts: 126
posted by Greg--
I would like to say that in looking at available JAVA jobs, I have not found one that requires or even recomends a Cert. They all want experience. Can someone prove me wrong and show me a job link that differs?
Is this the norm? Are employers really NOT looking at certs for JAVA.

Greg, certificate is always a positive supplemental, the reason why employer does not post this requirement on ads is because they don't see this as a MUST so they don't want to close the door for those fellows without certificate. This doesn't mean certificate is NOT helpful, you got it ? For instance, a job ad requires a BS in CS, but if you have a MS and same quality of work experience, you may be in favorable position in manager's view, that's it.
The bottom line is -- studying for certificate itself is fun and I promise you that you will technically benefit from learning process itself. I don't understand why some people are ALWAYS 100% concerned with money or promotion associated with certificate, they want a guarantee of the relationship b/w cert and money, otherwise they don't do it. They ignore the fact that they can learn and perform better through the certificate study process. For myself, I have experience, but when I studied for SCEA I had a good review on all design patterns, EJB knowledge, security, UML, etc. It is very helpful. Sometimes in your work field you are likely focused on your expertise and may not be exposed to some other fields. But through studying certificate you have to gain more comprehensive knowledge.
Don't just think about the "immedite" $$$ that should come with the certificates, just see this as a way to "force" yourself to learn more, or to test yourself to see if you still need to improve in any aspects.
Abadula
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JeanLouis Marechaux
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Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 906
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:

Do you have a college degree?

ahhh, sarcasm.
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
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Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
GM requires it's outsourcing suppliers to maintain a certain percentage of folks certified in a variety of things. Therefore if you want to work for a place that does work for GM you are in a much better position if you have the certification. There are other companies that do the same.
Of course, at this point, there are so few companies hiring, that no matter WHAT you have, you still might not get the job.
(PS: this is beginning to sound like a conversation for Jobs Discussion.)


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Rufus BugleWeed
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Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
(PS: this is beginning to sound like a conversation for Jobs Discussion.)

JD is a friendly place for java greenhorns.
This is MD, merciless deriders.
[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
I would like to say that in looking at available JAVA jobs, I have not found one that requires or even recomends a Cert. They all want experience. Can someone prove me wrong and show me a job link that differs?

I am actually on your side on this one for the most part, however...
UNISYS, Software Engineer: ... The following certifications are desirable, but not required: Java and J2EE Certification or Microsoft Certified Developer, (COM/DCOM/COM+, Internet, .NET) and Rational Rose (OOAD), Rational Unified Configuration Management Process. ...
SAIC, Java Programmer|SOFTWARE ENGINEER: ... Requires Sun Certified Java Programmer experience in design and development of applications using SQL Server, Java, CORBA, C++, and Oracle on UNIX and NT. ...
UNISYS, Software Developer: ... Minimum of 2 years development experience with the following technologies: - Sun Certified Java Developer ...
Where I work, we have been encouraged by management to seek industry certifications in general, and Sun Java certifications in particular. The reason for this is to try to provide every edge possible when bidding for contracts, as well as being able to have personnel available to fill contract positions that might call for certifications.
It goes without saying though that experience and education are the primary factors, with things such as certifications merely being icing on the cake.
 
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