wood burning stoves 2.0*
The moose likes Meaningless Drivel and the fly likes Fishy Texas Prison?? Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Other » Meaningless Drivel
Bookmark "Fishy Texas Prison??" Watch "Fishy Texas Prison??" New topic
Author

Fishy Texas Prison??

Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
I chanced upon this article :
Dell's Computer Recycling Program Puts Workers At Risk, Advocates Say
And within that I read an astonishing fact.
Dell employs low-end, prison labor in its partnership with Unicor, a corporation that uses prison workers as part of the Federal Bureau of Prison

Heck, no wonder they were thrashing their competition with ultra low prices. But with my suspicion aroused I investigated a bit further to find out the following:
All statistics are for 1998
Estimated Felons in Texas : 164,702.00
Estimated Felons in 20-35 age group: 76000.00
Estimated Felons with GED/Diploma: 67,500.00
Esimated Felons with some College: 25,000.00
Umm.. is this some strange co-incidence that Texas has such a well educated prison population??
Further I checked up on Unicor.gov and below are a few sample quotes:
It is the mission of Federal Prison Industries, Inc. to employ and provide skills training to the greatest practicable number of inmates confined within the Federal Bureau of Prisons; contribute to the safety and security of our Nation's correctional facilities by keeping inmates constructively occupied; produce market-price quality goods for sale to the Federal Government


Wages paid : 20cents to $1.16 per hour.

I couldnt find any website that directly provided Texas prison employment statistics.. anyone else got this?
Now onto the main topic, this whole affair seems damn fishy to me. I thought we employed prison labor back in the 30s to build the national highway and even back then these employment groups were known as the notorious chain gangs. Seems like we havent progressed much further have we?
Here is a few other shockers:
List of Clientele: (This is a nationwide list)
ADP Entry Services (These guys process wages and salary information for almost every major corporation I am aware of)
CRM Support (Tom Siebel better watch out..)
E-Commerce Support Services
HTML Tagging
Help Desk Support
PC Repair
XML Tagging (They're up-to-date!)

(The above list doesnt necessarily mean that Federal vendors/customers must employ prison labor, it just means they have an option to employ them.. at $1.15/hr it seems like a no-brainer to me)


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:


Why not discuss the pros and cons of this arrangement?
Would it be better for prisoners to never have any chance at any employment behind bars?
If we allow prisoners to earn full market value for their labor is that really proper punishment?
(We already pay for housing, food, and education. When the innmates got out they would be in far better shape financially than honest working people).
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by herb slocomb:

Why not discuss the pros and cons of this arrangement?
If we allow prisoners to earn full market value for their labor is that really proper punishment?
(We already pay for housing, food, and education. When the innmates got out they would be in far better shape financially than honest working people).

The key phrase being "full market value"
At $1.16/hr, I'd be tempted to throw you in prison and then employ from there. Make it $16/hr(assuming thats what you earn normally, ofcourse I'm sure you earn more, but for this example..) and I'd think there is no difference between employing you outside or inside.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
How about if they earn full market value but their salary must go to benefit the victims of their crimes. It seems like the state is using prison labor to compete against the honest hard working guy on the street and what chance does he have to compete against these wages?


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:

The key phrase being "full market value"
At $1.16/hr, I'd be tempted to throw you in prison and then employ from there.

Is there any evidence people are being thrown in jail to be employed? Or is this just union scare tactics?
Are we suggesting the police get kickbacks from this arrangement and that the kickbacks are sufficient to negate the risks of losing one's career in law enforcement? The same argument for the judges, public defenders, and appeals courts. However, I'm not saying its impossible or that its not something we should keep close watch on.
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
It seems like the state is using prison labor to compete against the honest hard working guy on the street and what chance does he have to compete against these wages?

One of the arguments for justifying the massive illegal immigration crisis we have now is that the immigrants are doing some jobs that Americans will not, so why not allow the prisoners do those jobs so there is no competition with the honest working folk.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by herb slocomb:

One of the arguments for justifying the massive illegal immigration crisis we have now is that the immigrants are doing some jobs that Americans will not, so why not allow the prisoners do those jobs so there is no competition with the honest working folk.

Those include sweeping floors, cleaning toilets etc. So if you would like a convicted felon sweeping your office floors and cleaning your toilets, it may be justifiable.
Paul Stevens
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 17, 2001
Posts: 2823
I saw this on Shawshank Redemption.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
One of the arguments for justifying the massive illegal immigration crisis we have now is that the immigrants are doing some jobs that Americans will not, so why not allow the prisoners do those jobs so there is no competition with the honest working folk.

I don't think prisoners are being used to cut my lawns and helping contractors remove rubbish.
I also think there is a huge myth about "doing jobs that Americans will not do". Could someone please tell me what these jobs are? I have never found a job (unless it involves an illegal sweat shop) that all American workers would refuse to do.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
Are we suggesting the police get kickbacks from this arrangement and that the kickbacks are sufficient to negate the risks of losing one's career in law enforcement?
This used to be done all the time in the South. The police would sell prisoners (mostly blacks) to local farmers to do things like pick cotton and rice. When they ran low on prisoners they would simply round up a bunch of blacks, railroad them with trumped up charges, and they were back in business. Louisiana was especially famous for this because the death rate among the prisoners working on the rice farms was very high because of malaria, poor food, and lack of health care.
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:

Those include sweeping floors, cleaning toilets etc. So if you would like a convicted felon sweeping your office floors and cleaning your toilets, it may be justifiable.

I don't mind. I'm all for giving people a chance at honest work as long as they are not a security risk. But I also don't believe all the illegal immigrants are all employed just doing the limited number of tasks you mentioned.
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

I don't think prisoners are being used to cut my lawns and helping contractors remove rubbish.
I also think there is a huge myth about "doing jobs that Americans will not do". Could someone please tell me what these jobs are? I have never found a job (unless it involves an illegal sweat shop) that all American workers would refuse to do.

Java programming at minimum wage?
Seasonal crop harvesting?
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
This used to be done all the time in the South. The police would sell prisoners (mostly blacks) to local farmers to do things like pick cotton and rice. When they ran low on prisoners they would simply round up a bunch of blacks, railroad them with trumped up charges, and they were back in business. Louisiana was especially famous for this because the death rate among the prisoners working on the rice farms was very high because of malaria, poor food, and lack of health care.

One of my earlier questions was, is there any evidence of this happening now, meaning the year 2003? I believe you are referring to a different age and era. Most prisoners have adequate health care today.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hello,
I know an electronic retail company Fry's Electronis practice Recycle electronic goods or Crush for its vendors, that company is well known for hiring off-the-boards immigrants from 3rd world countries. Their hiring practice are minimum wage and overlap shifts so the employees could not figure out they been cheated 10 minutes per day. The employee have to handle health hazard with minimal protection such as a facial mask wore by people during the SARS epidemic.
I think it's best to let prisoner handle those kinds of works.
Regards,
MCao
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Java programming at minimum wage?
Read these boards and you will find odzens of programmers looking for some experience who would gladly take a job at minimum wage.
Seasonal crop harvesting?
I was reading about a group in the Midwest that hooks college students up with farmers. I am sure that there are plenty of Americans who would gladly take these jobs.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
One of my earlier questions was, is there any evidence of this happening now, meaning the year 2003?
Obviously we need to do the research, don't we? Sriraj pointed out that a lot of prisoners were being used as cheap labor to compete against American workers. Now we need to see if there is any indication that innocent people are being imprisoned in Texas. I guess that could never happen, huh?
Randall Twede
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

especially not in Texas :roll:


SCJP
Visit my download page
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Java programming at minimum wage?
Read these boards and you will find odzens of programmers looking for some experience who would gladly take a job at minimum wage.
Seasonal crop harvesting?
I was reading about a group in the Midwest that hooks college students up with farmers. I am sure that there are plenty of Americans who would gladly take these jobs.

OK, then the mass immigration advocates have lost one of their justifications.
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Obviously we need to do the research, don't we? Sriraj pointed out that a lot of prisoners were being used as cheap labor to compete against American workers. Now we need to see if there is any indication that innocent people are being imprisoned in Texas. I guess that could never happen, huh?

Potentially and actually, corruption can occur at any level at any time or place. Life is series balancing rewards vs risks. So far, I've yet to hear a single prisoner claim such a type of corruption , and God knows, most prisoners have all day to do nothing but file legal claims. On the other hand there are clear benefits to many sides, including the prisoners themselves, yet the timid Ranchers here are so risk averse they are even afraid to dare mention them...
 
permaculture playing cards
 
subject: Fishy Texas Prison??