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The RIAA sees the face of evil, and it's a 12-year-old girl

Jason Menard
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The RIAA sees the face of evil, and it's a 12-year-old girl
12-Year-Old Sued for Music Downloading
The RIAA... :roll:
Thomas Paul
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Are you trying to make the point that stealing is OK if you are 12 years old? What exactly are you saying other than, "I have a right to steal and the RIAA ia big bully"?


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Jason Menard
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I'm saying it's like swatting a fly with a bazooka. I don't condone theft of any kind, but at the same time I only wish bad things on groups such as the RIAA and MPAA, as long as they insist on trying to protect outdated business models by legislating away fair-use, and worse.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I'm saying it's like swatting a fly with a bazooka. I don't condone theft of any kind, but at the same time I only wish bad things on groups such as the RIAA and MPAA, as long as they insist on trying to protect outdated business models by legislating away fair-use, and worse.


Fair use? What a load of nonsense. Since when is giving a copy of a song to anyone who wants it, fair use? If I took "Jess in Action" and printed up thousands of my own copies and then posted all over the internet that anyone who wanted a copy could have it for free instead of buying it would that be fair use? If not, how is it different than what the music thieves, like that 12 year old girl, are doing? Two months ago, only 35% of the population knew that using music sharing programs was illegal. Today that number is up to 65% because of the actions of the RIAA.
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Fair use? What a load of nonsense.

I'm not saying that this is a case of fair-use. This girl was involved in theft. That does not change the fact that groups such as the RIAA and MPAA are actively engaged in destroying fair-use. You think you have a right to play a CD you purchased on any CD player in your house, including the one in your computer? The RIAA disagrees with you, and its members are now producing CDs which cannot be played on home computers. You think you have a right to time-shift a television program by recording it and watching it later? The MPAA would beg to differ, and in fact has taken some very concrete steps to ensure that you will only be able to time-shift what they want you to time-shift. I guess I don't even need to mention the RIAA and MPAA's lovechild, the DMCA. Yeah, that didn't take away consumer rights, not to mention the damage it has done to free-speech..
It's like feeling bad when an organized crime organization gets ripped off. Yeah whoever ripped them off was certainly stealing and there are consequences to be paid when they get caught, but one certainly doesn't feel any sympathy for the mobster "victim".
John Smith
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Am I going to burn in hell for recording a few mp3 files with Frank Sinatra songs on a CD for my grandmother? I seriously doubt that. It's more likely that I would be sent to the pit for listening to The Beatles on the legally purchased media.
File sharing is as much of a sin/crime as masturbation, -- Jesus would probably not approve either, but He is not likely to hold it against you on the Judgement Day.
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
File sharing is as much of a sin/crime as masturbation, -- Jesus would probably not approve either, but He is not likely to hold it against you on the Judgement Day.

I don't think that we as a society want to start basing our laws on WWJD though.
Jason Menard
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Senator Questions RIAA Amnesty Plan
The Senator vowed that he would soon announce Congressional hearings to look into the RIAA's tactics to quash tune copying and sharing.
John Smith
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I don't think that we as a society want to start basing our laws on WWJD though.
Well, indirectly, all of our laws are based on the Judeo-Christian morality. In this thread, we are interpreting the 8th Commandment that made it as a law in our secular society, are we not?
HS Thomas
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If the problem reached the heights of bootlegging in the 30's it could lead to gang warfare, murder and mayhem, taking the softly softly approach.
12 year olds have a habit of growing up.
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by HS Thomas:
If the problem reached the heights of bootlegging in the 30's it could lead to gang warfare, murder and mayhem, taking the softly softly approach.

You are being sarcastic here I take it.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Am I going to burn in hell for recording a few mp3 files with Frank Sinatra songs on a CD for my grandmother?
And you aren't going to burn in hell for not putting a quarter in the meter either but it is still a crime. If we start basing laws on what will get you to hell then we first need to determine which religion's version of hell we are talking about.
Jim Yingst
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Am I going to burn in hell for recording a few mp3 files
Naah, I'm sure you'll be going to hell for much better reasons than that.


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John Smith
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Naah, I'm sure you'll be going to hell for much better reasons than that.
Hey Jimbo, have not seen you for a while, welcome back! Did you get lost in the canyons? More importantly, have you accepted Jesus yet?
Gregg Bolinger
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    6

"It's not like we were doing anything illegal," said Torres.
Uhhh, yeah it is. You're 12 year old child is downloading illegal songs off the internet.
But that is besides the point. Why is the RIAA going after 12 year old girls instead of Kazzaa and Morpheus and WinMX? If they really want to stop it, why don't they stop it at the source? The got napster didn't they?
With that being said, why aren't they going after people make copies of VHS tapes, DVD's and just straight copying a CD and giving it to a friend. That is "illegal" too.
I guess 12 year old girls are easier to sue for $150, 000 (which is a rediculous figure for a single song).


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HS Thomas
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You are being sarcastic here I take it.

Who or what is the law protecting in this particular case ?
Owners of intellectual property have the right to protect their interests.
Society has the right to prevailing peace and order.
Music files today, God knows what will be freely made use of tomorrow.
The bootlegging probably started by a few setting up distillers in their backyards. As more people got into the "business" this drove up prices and customers began to move to the even cheaper booze which led to the gang warfare.
Isn't it plausible that the 12 year old girl in a couple years time would've moved to bigger territory than the playground. And start jostling for elbow-room with older pirates. I can just see a gang war brewing. She probably has a habit to feed by now, so forget about furthering her education.
This story has all the makings of a new urban theme for a film a la Gangs of New York, West Side Story.

Meanwhile the shop-bought stuff gets even more expensive as the likes of Michael Jackson have accruing tax bills to pay off.And before you know it everyones trading underground.
I think the 12-year old needs more than having her wrist slapped!
regards
John Smith
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I think the 12-year old needs more than having her wrist slapped!
Yeah, I would cut her right hand. The little bitch will know better next time she is thinking about stealing.
HS Thomas
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Now you are being sarcastic !
regards
Mark Fletcher
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Fair use? What a load of nonsense. Since when is giving a copy of a song to anyone who wants it, fair use?

I take it youve never ever recorded a song off the radio to listen to, or when you were in high school or college, never made a cassette of your favourite songs for a friend or collegue?
If you have, turn yourself in now you filthy bootlegging pirate. Phone up the RIAA and throw out that hifi with the double tape deck (because you dont want your children to get into crime as well now do you?).
If not, then move along, nothing to see here.
Thank you for your cooperation citizen.
[ September 09, 2003: Message edited by: Mark Fletcher ]

Mark Fletcher - http://www.markfletcher.org/blog
I had some Java certs, but they're too old now...
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Mark Fletcher:
I take it youve never ever recorded a song off the radio to listen to, or when you were in high school or college, never made a cassette of your favourite songs for a friend or collegue?
Whether I did it or not is not the issue. I never did it and claimed that it was my God given right as an American to steal any song I wanted. But to be perfectly honest, I never did. I always thought that home made cassettes sounded crappy so I always bought new. Of course, I am probably older than you so the equipment we had back in my day wasn't nearly as good as the equipment available today. Making a cassette from a vinyl LP was a guaranteed hiss-fest.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Mark Fletcher:
If you have, turn yourself in now you filthy bootlegging pirate. Phone up the RIAA and throw out that hifi with the double tape deck (because you dont want your children to get into crime as well now do you?).

It's funny but I have an all-in-one unit with a CD player and double cassette deck and I don't think a cassette has ever been within 50 feet of the thing.
Tarun Sukhani
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And you aren't going to burn in hell for not putting a quarter in the meter either but it is still a crime. If we start basing laws on what will get you to hell then we first need to determine which religion's version of hell we are talking about.

Ostensibly, you've not only revealed yourself to be parochial (always used to wonder why they called private schools that ), but also devoid of any intellect whatsoever.
Firstly, your statement alluding to a particular religion's "version of hell" presupposes that all religions have a notion of hell, which of course is false.
Secondly, as astonishing as this may sound, laws change!
In fact, if it weren't for the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, neither my parents nor I would be in this country. And that act (surprise surprise) was solely promulgated through the efforts of individuals like Martin Luther King and others, who for some odd reason believed people, regardless of national origin, should be allowed to immigrate to the US.
But getting back to the laws changing stuff, legal statutes are hardly set in stone (contrary to what most Judaeo-Christian fundamentalists would have us believe), and are thus subject to change. As such, I do forsee a time when inane tactics, such as those currently being practiced by the RIAA and MPAA, will no longer be condoned in American society. It doesn't matter if they are enforcing the "law", because in time such laws will be condemned just as slavery is now condemned, or 14 hour work days (oops, not yet!)
HS Thomas
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OK! Here is an example to compare the terribleness of the crime.
Last week , I nipped in and out of a Bus Lane ( all of 3 seconds ) and got caught on camera. The reason I did so because the car in front looked as if it had stalled ( I was in a hurry and didn't wait to check). This week I get a fine for �100.

I'll pay up because the law says Bus Lanes are sacred ground and should not be used. Period. I knew the law.I could appeal but I don't want to waste anyone's time any further.
It was wrong. I got caught. I pay up. Simple.
Note I hadn't stolen anything.
If I had repeatedly offended every day for the past 5 years and the camera had kept count and finally judgement day arrives - I'd be asked to pay up 5 x 350 x 100 = �175,000.

I'd probably die of a heart-attack then, so I can understand the little girl feeling dazed by the serious action.
Can you have one rule for a very *minor* traffic offence and another for a relatively *seriouser* crime that involves stealing ?
What would probably happen in the case of the 12 year old is that she will feel chastened ,get some counselling, start to get some notoriety in the press & TV which she'll handle well and enjoy if the counselling is good. If she has a good lawyer she'll probably sell the book and film rights to her story. Everyone will say "Aaaah" but no one will be downloading mp3s anymore for fear of the RIAA.
The girl is made an example of. Probably carefully screened for years out of the many pirates. A stoned-out 25-year old music pirate won't have made good copy.
I can't say I'll never cross a Bus Lane again. Unless the RIAA come up with a similar deterent for Traffic Offences or I try to make a career out of profiling for minor and minor-serious offences.
regards
[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Jim Yingst
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[Tarun Sukhani]: Ostensibly, you've not only revealed yourself to be parochial (always used to wonder why they called private schools that ), but also devoid of any intellect whatsoever.
Ostensibly? You're acknowledging that your subsequent statements are based on shallow surface impressions rather than deeper understanding? Yet still you want to say Thomas is "devoid of any intellect whatsoever"? Ummm... OK. Or perhaps "ostensibly" means something else to you?
Anyway - even if your statements about Thomas were remotely true (which they're not), personal attacks and insults are not warranted, and not welcome here. If you disagree with a point, disagree with the point, don't insult the person. In this case, you might do well to reread the post five or six times before responding - I don't think it means what you think it means.
Firstly, your statement alluding to a particular religion's "version of hell" presupposes that all religions have a notion of hell, which of course is false.
It was Eugene who mentioned Hell (as part of a question); Thomas was responding to that post, and he specifically said "If we start basing laws on what will get you to hell". "If" to indicate that what follows does not represent the range of all possibilities - he's addressing a specific subset of beliefs, namely those which Eugene had referenced. Obviously. I mean, I don't believe in Hell either, but I had no trouble understanding what Thomas said, and saw no contradiction with my beliefs. Lighten up.
Secondly, as astonishing as this may sound, laws change!
And this mind-numbingly obvious fact contradicts Thomas... how?
[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Jim Yingst
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[EK]: Hey Jimbo, have not seen you for a while, welcome back! Did you get lost in the canyons? More importantly, have you accepted Jesus yet?
Howdy, Eugene! Not lost, just road tripping California coast, mostly. As for the last - no, still playing for the Forces of Darkness. I'll save a spot for you.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Tarun Sukhani:
Ostensibly, you've not only revealed yourself to be parochial (always used to wonder why they called private schools that ), but also devoid of any intellect whatsoever.
Not only have you revealed yourself as a fool, but as a fool with no decorum or class. Since Eugene was the one who suggested that the law was not a big deal because it wouldn't send him to hell perhaps your problem is with Eugene. And whether or not the law will change is irrelevant. Metered parking becomes unmetered parking but that doesn't excuse those who failed to put a quarter in the meter when it was there. People who stole copyrighted material are thieves. But since you feel differently, if you ever publish a book, song, or software for money I will make it my personal goal to distribute free copies to every man, woman, and child who wants it.
[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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By the way, the little girl's mom agreed to pay $2,000 and promise that they would never download music again.
If I had ever downloaded a song from the internet I would be very worried right now. Very worried. Even winning a civil suit can destroy you financially.
HS Thomas
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By the way, the little girl's mom agreed to pay $2,000 and promise that they would never download music again.

That's a good and much nobler ending than I thought would happen.
Perhaps the press-hounds ( and the RIAA) will move on to the portals that make it so easy, then, as was suggested.
I am worried, very worried. Half the time you don't know what crap you are inviting when you double-click on a link.
regards
Jason Menard
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Posts: 6450
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
That's a good and much nobler ending than I thought would happen.
Perhaps the press-hounds ( and the RIAA) will move on to the portals that make it so easy, then, as was suggested.

This is exactly what the RIAA wants to happen. They don't want to go to court. For one, the amount of time it would take to prosecute everyone would be extreme in the least. So extreme that CDs would likely be relegated to the dustbin of history along with 78rpm LPs by that time. For another, they simply can't afford to prosecute everyone they need to. They are likely not willing to spend the money necessary to take more than a few cases to court. They would much rather intimidate the elderly and parents of guilty children into paying a couple of thousand dollars in order to "settle".
What's even sadder is that they are spending all this money and effort proptecting a dying business model, instead of spending the effort examining new business models and marketing techniques better suited to the 21st century which will enable them to keep their enormous revenues flowing, as well as maybe actually providing products that consumers were interested in purchasing.
HS Thomas
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new business models and marketing techniques better suited to the 21st century which will enable them to keep their enormous revenues flowing, as well as maybe actually providing products that consumers were interested in purchasing.

Perhaps this is how they are going to fund research into the new models.
Perhaps this is them conducting their research into what the people want.
How else would they know what lengths people would go to get an mp3? Give it a cult status and little kiddies will have credit cards with limits that would currently buy a Porsche.
You put me in mind of the British Poll Tax. Hugely unpopular, but it was only removed a couple of years after implementation.
Poll Tax
Poll tax riots
That was one "business" model that could only be tested out on the whole population. A slightly less popular model was then accepted by the grateful population with a sigh of relief.

regards
[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
But since you feel differently, if you ever publish a book, song, or software for money I will make it my personal goal to distribute free copies to every man, woman, and child who wants it.

TP, I will help you


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Tony Collins
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Originally posted by HS Thomas:

You put me in mind of the British Poll Tax. Hugely unpopular, but it was only removed a couple of years after implementation.
Poll Tax
Poll tax riots
That was one "business" model that could only be tested out on the whole population. A slightly less popular model was then accepted by the grateful population with a sigh of relief.

regards
[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

Yeah but it got rid of Thatcher.
Tony
Tarun Sukhani
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Not only have you revealed yourself as a fool, but as a fool with no decorum or class. Since Eugene was the one who suggested that the law was not a big deal because it wouldn't send him to hell perhaps your problem is with Eugene. And whether or not the law will change is irrelevant. Metered parking becomes unmetered parking but that doesn't excuse those who failed to put a quarter in the meter when it was there. People who stole copyrighted material are thieves. But since you feel differently, if you ever publish a book, song, or software for money I will make it my personal goal to distribute free copies to every man, woman, and child who wants it.
[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

I recall reading an earlier reply denouncing my so-called ad hominem attack of you, yet when such an attack is leveled against me, it's disregarded by others (this I have carefully noted has been the case with fundamentalists supporting fundamentalists - take this comment as you will). And then the rub is that this topic cannot invite personal attacks, yet here is one in response to mine (nice double standard).
Whether the law will change or not IS relevant, because there are certain underlying truths that exist. Slavery in this country for centuries was legal, but was condemned by some at the time. This minority KNEW it was wrong and that the law would inevitably be changed to reveal the underlying nefarious truth. They FOUGHT for this change, and now if you ask most individuals, an overwhelming majority denounce slavery in all its forms. This goes back to the popular aphorism that you cannot legislate attitudes, only behavior. Over time, however, attitudes change concordant with behavior. I can ASSURE you that the same will happen with inane laws that an EDUCATED (meaning both morally and materially) minority agree are dubious at best. Your ingenuous example of metered parking is hardly noteworthy - we're talking about Gestapo tactics by these monopolies (RIAA and MPAA) to hunt and ultimately heavily penalize "offenders" - even the language of their discourse is riddled with hyperbolic claims. This is NOT the best way to get out your intended message; it is heavy-handed and Draconian.
If I ever do publish something, which I have by the way, you intend to distribute it freely, huh? Hurray!
That's called free advertising! I'd love that - more chances for people to know how I think or become familiar with my work! The fact of the matter is that with current economies of scale, I would have to sell a pittance to make a ridiculous sum of money - that's exactly what artists, authors, musicians, etc. today rely on to make their living. They know that because humans are multiplying like bacteria, they can easily find an audience, no matter how pathetic their opus, to sell to.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Tarun Sukhani:
Whether the law will change or not IS relevant, because there are certain underlying truths that exist.

And having the right to do whatever you want with other people's property is not an underlying truth! Did you know that Stephen Foster, one of the greatest American songwriters, died penniless because he could not get anyone to honor his copyrights? People simply ignored them and left him with nothing. Why would anyone bother to write songs if anyone else could simply steal them? Why would anyone release a CD if one CD could be enjoyed by millions of people? The RIAA is not practicing Gestapo tactics. No one is being carried off in the middle of the night to concentration camps. People are being given ample opportunity to stop breaking the law. The RIAA has been warning people about this for years. Anyone who is foolish enough to think that stealing is OK because it is so easy deserves a good slap on the wrist.
And if you don't want to be insulted then don't insult people.
[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Tarun Sukhani:
If I ever do publish something, which I have by the way...

Apparently not on your web site, however.
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
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    6

Originally posted by Tarun Sukhani:
nice double standard
Originally posted by Tarun Sukhani:
Ostensibly, you've not only revealed yourself to be parochial (always used to wonder why they called private schools that ), but also devoid of any intellect whatsoever.
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Not only have you revealed yourself as a fool, but as a fool with no decorum or class.
I would say you are both even now.
[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Tarun Sukhani:

I recall reading an earlier reply denouncing my so-called ad hominem attack of you, yet when such an attack is leveled against me, it's disregarded by others (this I have carefully noted has been the case with fundamentalists supporting fundamentalists - take this comment as you will). And then the rub is that this topic cannot invite personal attacks, yet here is one in response to mine (nice double standard).
Whether the law will change or not IS relevant, because there are certain underlying truths that exist. Slavery in this country for centuries was legal, but was condemned by some at the time. This minority KNEW it was wrong and that the law would inevitably be changed to reveal the underlying nefarious truth. They FOUGHT for this change, and now if you ask most individuals, an overwhelming majority denounce slavery in all its forms. This goes back to the popular aphorism that you cannot legislate attitudes, only behavior. Over time, however, attitudes change concordant with behavior. I can ASSURE you that the same will happen with inane laws that an EDUCATED (meaning both morally and materially) minority agree are dubious at best. Your ingenuous example of metered parking is hardly noteworthy - we're talking about Gestapo tactics by these monopolies (RIAA and MPAA) to hunt and ultimately heavily penalize "offenders" - even the language of their discourse is riddled with hyperbolic claims. This is NOT the best way to get out your intended message; it is heavy-handed and Draconian.
If I ever do publish something, which I have by the way, you intend to distribute it freely, huh? Hurray!
That's called free advertising! I'd love that - more chances for people to know how I think or become familiar with my work! The fact of the matter is that with current economies of scale, I would have to sell a pittance to make a ridiculous sum of money - that's exactly what artists, authors, musicians, etc. today rely on to make their living. They know that because humans are multiplying like bacteria, they can easily find an audience, no matter how pathetic their opus, to sell to.

Dude, you are getting emotional over here First of all arguing with any one over internet is most foolish thing anyone can do. calm down. I do think paying 15-20$ a frigging CD is too much money thats why these artists are MOFO filthy rich. pisses me off when i watch those MTV Cribs showin' their bentleys, ferraris, big ass cadillacs with those 22 inch wheels. 5$ or less for a CD Should be decent money for anyone to go and buy one.
If any one watched 'Newly weds' (I watched one episode) of jessica simpson and her husband on MTV it amazes me how rich they are and What a dumb broad that chick is. It is hilarious to watch these Artists making a complete joke out of them on these shows.
Gregg Bolinger
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    6

I do think paying 15-20$ a frigging CD is too much money...
I think that $10 to $15 is ok though. Granted there are a lot of people doing it but it's just like programming. If anyone could do it, everyone would be doing it.
At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth here, there are some artists today that actually have talent and are good at what they do. That's why they get paid for it. There is a LOT of work that goes into creating a CD. And not only from the artists stand point. So much more goes into it from the producers, the record companies, the engineers. So it's not like Jessica Simpson makes a CD and pockets $20 bucks everytime one sells. You are paying a lot of other people as well to get the CD to you. Including the Record Store.
So when people "steal" music on the internet, you are not just hurting the artists. You are crippling an entire industry. I will admit I have "stolen" some songs in my life. (Hopefully the RIAA isn't reading this). But what I typically do is download a couple of songs and see if I like them. If I do, I go buy the CD.
It's the same with stealing software. Well, everyone should steal MS software, but that's it!!
Jim Yingst
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[TS]: I recall reading an earlier reply denouncing my so-called ad hominem attack of you, yet when such an attack is leveled against me, it's disregarded by others (this I have carefully noted has been the case with fundamentalists supporting fundamentalists - take this comment as you will). And then the rub is that this topic cannot invite personal attacks, yet here is one in response to mine (nice double standard).
Well, personally I just got around to reading this thread again. So OK, I don't really approve of Thomas' immediate response to you. And I hope that in the future he'll be better able to restrain his emotions when he's unjustly attacked; I'd like to see sheriffs and bartenders set a higher standard for behavior here. But really, what were you expecting? If you go into a bar and punch someone in the face, the first response tends to be for them to punch back. (Which Thomas did, once.) Bystanders don't tend to sympathize with the provoker as much as they do the provoked. This is a surprise to you? It's not as if you've offered any sort of apology for your unprovoked attack. So quit yer whining.
As an aside, it's easier for me to say "set a higher standard" when I wasn't the one directly insulted. If I'd been in Thomas' place there's a good chance I'd have acted much the same, as far as my immediate response is concerned.
[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
John Smith
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Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
Jim: So OK, I don't realy approve of Thomas' immediate response to you. And I hope that in the future he'll be better able to restrain his emotions when he's unjustly attacked; I'd like to see sheriffs and bartenders set a higher standard for behavior here. But really, what were you expecting? If you go into a bar and punch someone in the face, the first response tends to be for them to punch back. (Which Thomas did, once.)
Jim, how can I transform myself from being a biased and cynical nihilist to a fair and decent person like you are? I beg you, show me the path to my salvation!
 
permaculture playing cards
 
subject: The RIAA sees the face of evil, and it's a 12-year-old girl