wood burning stoves*
The moose likes Meaningless Drivel and the fly likes Learning a language Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Murach's Java Servlets and JSP this week in the Servlets forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Other » Meaningless Drivel
Bookmark "Learning a language" Watch "Learning a language" New topic
Author

Learning a language

HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
What interesting approach could you take to learning a language ?
I am thinking of learning Spanish. I've tried the audio-tape thing but never quite worked for me.
Driving to and fro' work 80 miles away at 90mph doesn't lend itself to this approach of learning. Being stuck in traffic doesn't help either.
I'm sure with a bit of discipline, timing and this can be a very good way of learning.
I met some really engaging French tourists recently while on holiday in the States but they couldn't converse for long in English. My school French wasn't up to it either. I am hoping to bring my French up to scratch and try holidaying closer to home. Previously a holiday wasn't a holiday unless I was scrambling through bush. I would like to walk across America one day though (it would take around three weeks I believe).
Has anyone tried a unique way of learning a language (they'd like to share )?
I did pick up some Italian while learning some classical music but wouldn't dare to try it with Italian locals. I am not sure how that would translate and would be a bit scared of the reaction.
I think the habit of learning a language is something I'd like to cultivate. If my interests take me to learning the language then that would be
I live in Europe so the languages stated are the most obvious ones to learn for me.

I also learnt some German in school.(Unused and forgotten ) You'd think the fact that objects are assigned masculine and feminine it would be easier to learn both French and German together but .


regards
[ September 12, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Andres Gonzalez
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 1561
I think the best way to learn a foreign language is to live overseas and expose yourself to the language and culture.
If you can't do that, try to find someone that you can practice with, no matter how many mistakes you make. Reading also helps a lot.
buena suerte


I'm not going to be a Rock Star. I'm going to be a LEGEND! --Freddie Mercury
Sridhar Venkat
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 11, 2003
Posts: 13
Living in India which is so amazingly diverse, I've had to learn quite a few different languages. I've found that learning from a book can get really boring. Try speaking in the language to other people who know the language, but don't treat it as practice..try assuming that the only way you can communicate is by using that particular language. Watching television programs in the language helps a lot..plus it's fun.
Sridhar
vasu maj
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 12, 2001
Posts: 395
amigo querido,
Staying physically there is the fastest but I found from experience that learning a languagae can be more practical and relatively fast by watching movies in that language..I learnt more French from "Amelie" than a hours of half hearted listening to tapes.
bonne chance

Vasu


What a wonderful world!
Dana Hanna
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2003
Posts: 227
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
I would like to walk across America one day though (it would take around three weeks I believe).

Um... Maybe if you can run at 6 MPH for 24 hrs/day for 3 weeks straight, or 12 MPH for 12 hrs/day for 3 weeks straight!!!
Realistically, this would take 8-12 weeks, and you'd be dead at the end. Not to mention crazy at the start.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
I'm glad you spotted that and put me right. I picked that piece of information from a brochure.
regards
stara szkapa
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 27, 2003
Posts: 321
Have you tried any of this interactive software programs for example LEARNING COMPANY Learn To Speak Spanish Version 8 (Windows)? I never tried this method but it should be very convenient way of learning.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Have you tried any of this interactive software programs for example LEARNING COMPANY Learn To Speak Spanish Version 8 (Windows)?

That's a good idea as a supplement. I'm dubious that would work with me.
Learning on one's own does have the negative effect of that you are programmed to reply to bog standard answers. Then in a real conversation you have to mentally flip through what you've learnt to find what fits the context. That kind of slows you down and makes for poor conversation.
What's missing in that scenario is practise with real people.
But a good idea as a starter.I shall take note.
regards
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
I agree with those who say it's best to live where the language is spoken regularly, and immerse yourself as much as possible. If possible. But as that's not always feasible, you probably need other options. I agree with Vasu that movies are not a bad option. At least, they can be a fun supplement to more traditional methods. Don't overlook modern technology here - many DVDs you buy can probably be viewed in alternate languages, or with alternate subtitles. It can be fun for a movie you've seen before in English, and listen in Spanish. You can put on the English subtitles if you want a rough translation as you go. Or put on the Spanish subtitles if you need to learn more how things are spelled. (Well for Spanish or Italian, spelling is pretty transparent - French, less so. I bet this feature is really useful to those learning English though.) Also - can you get access to TV stations in another language you'd like to learn? You may even be able to get some sort of closed captioning or alternate-language sound. Consider watching stuff that's for kids, or aimed at a less refined audience than you normally consider yourself. If plots are predictable, that's actually good, because you can guess what things mean more easily. I learned a lot of Italian from watching "The A-Team" in that language. I'd never bothered to watch it in the US, but when I was an exchange student in Italy (1984-85), my host family had a ten-year-old boy who watched it all the time. It's not great writing, but it's more entertaining than your average textbook anyway; you can learn a lot from "low-brow" television. If you can tape things, so that you can occasionally hit pause while you look something up in a dictionary, so much the better.
You really, really need lots of conversation, in the long run. Find some local people who speak the language and are willing to put up with you, and then don't talk to them in anything but their language. If you can. But things like movies and videos can make a good supplement. Hope that helps...
[ September 12, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Jim, that's a whole lot of options I hadn't even begun to consider.
Thanks to everyone for some great ideas. Of course, if you think of anymore please do keep posting.
The top suggestion so far has been has been living within the community.
Learning by Osmosis. There are very few Spanish folk living in UK. The few I've met speak only English. Worldwide the choice is really high,South America to the Philipines.
Another option is Book Clubs.
Book Clubs
Funnily enough there are too few on-line Book Clubs . :confused.
I'd be interested in a Book Club that read L'Alchimiste by Paolo Coelho
but I'm more likely to find a reading of the French edition rather than Portuguese seeing he is a Brazilian author. (Well, recently moved to France following his popularity there.)

regards
[ September 14, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Jim, just how many languages do you know ?
regards
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Rosetta stone
Welsh and Swahili included.
regards
Joel McNary
Bartender

Joined: Aug 20, 2001
Posts: 1817

A paraphrased qote (I'm not good at actual quotes, but you'll get the idead) from Victor Borge, the great musical comedian:
"Now, here's a rather remarkable way to learn things. You take a cassette tape which has on it that which you want to learn and place it in a player next to your bead, or under your pillow, and play it while you sleep. It will soak into your brain and you will learn it sub-consciously. Now, this process might take month or even years, but you will learn it.
"Me, I learned Japanese this way. Yes, it's true. Now, I don't speak it perfectly, of course, but I can make myself understood when I need to.
"Unfortunately, I can only speak it when I'm sound asleep."


Piscis Babelis est parvus, flavus, et hiridicus, et est probabiliter insolitissima raritas in toto mundo.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Jim, just how many languages do you know ?
Engligh
Italian - sorta. Was fluent enough while I lived there, but it's largely forgotten now. I find if I watch a movie, I remember a lot more by the end, and so I could probably recover a lot of this if I studied a bit.
German - studied 2 years in high school, 1 in college, again, it's mostly forgotten now.
Spanish - picked up some though osmosis and the fact that it's similar to Italian. I can't actually converse with someone, but I can recognize words.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Jim , and I thought you'd be a walking testimony to your rather radical approach. Two out of four aint bad.
The closest I can get to learning Spanish right now is watching that Western TV cartoon with the "meeces" in it. Meece Gringos.Speedy Gonzales!
They speak Spanish in Mexico, don't they?
What a great idea ! I can get reluctant 5 yr old language learners to apply themselves. Can't think of any French cartoons though! :roll:
Joel, that approach is worth a mention.
regards
[ September 15, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Jim , and I thought you'd be a walking testimony to your rather radical approach.
Well as I said, I did learn some Italian from "the A Team", and sometimes re-learn it from movies. The DVD stuff is just untried ideas. I was hoping you'd be a good guinea pig.
They speak Spanish in Mexico, don't they?
Mexico, and everywhere south of that, except Brazil (and Antarctica). And there are plenty of Spanish-speakers in the US as well.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404

I was hoping you'd be a good guinea pig.

The finer points of your approach deserves the full attention it can get. It's worthy of a full-blown research study with all the right equipment. Square-eyed little boy is all I can come up with. Channels with the right sub-titles is a bit more difficult. Hard to believe we are debating joining the Euro! It's a bit like debating who should be in the teams and not knowing what game will be played.
regards
Ellen Zhao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 581
I was told there was a Russian lady, immigrated to Germany but could never use der das die correctly, finally she developed a clever way: put a "-chen" to every noun, and always say "das H�uschen, das Hundchen, das wasserchen, das T�rchen...." and you are always correct! Clever, huh?
Aber sp�ter fand ich die Methode geht nicht immer, Leute lachteten immer, wenn ich sagte: das Problemchen, das Vorlesungchen, das Pr�fungchen...
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Aber sp�ter fand ich die Methode geht nicht immer, Leute lachteten immer, wenn ich sagte: das Problemchen, das Vorlesungchen, das Pr�fungchen...


From what I remember of school German this translates to
" But I find speaking the method does not always work, people always laugh when I say the problems , the ??? , the ??? "
Babel fish translation :
But I found the method later go not always, people always lachteten, if I said: the Problemchen, the Vorlesungchen, the Pruefungchen...

die Problemen, die Vorlesungen, die Pruefungen - seems to work better,
I think as these are abstract entities.
das Hauschen was a problem even for Babel Fish; but that might be becuse of no umlauts.
regards
[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Chris Baron
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
Try Haeuschen (Häuschen)
Spanish: Guatemala is very inexpensive to get spanish courses.
In the cities Antigua and Quetzaltenango are a lot of students from a over the world. If you have enough time, the cheap living there pays the flight.
cb
[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: Chris Baron ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Your suggestion has knocked me for six ,Chris. I know where I'd rather be.
Guatemala -Antigua
regards
Chris Baron
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
Hi
lonelyplanet the thorntree forum and postcards are good to wallow in wanderlust. <-- My dicionary says this, hope it fits...looks quite german It's also good to estimate eventual dangers.
Antigua is very nice (and old like the name says). Ruins of Tikal is a must. Lake Atitlan with the vulcans (G. is a earthquake region) is fantastic. I haven't been to Quetzaltenango. The author of my german travelguide loved it, but i learned to hate her (must be an 100% Birkenstock wearer) so didn't go there. From then on i always used lonelyplanet for my travels. Anyway she says Q. is the best place to learn spanish, and must admit that i was also short of time...
cb
Ellen Zhao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 581
I remember when I started to learn German in China, I really put my heart into it, recited Goether's, Rilke's poetries and Hermann Hesse's essays every morning, I believed it was the only way to really appreciate the beauty of a language. But it seems that this way of learning a language is out of date, at least in such a practical macro environment. Eight months later, when I took my DSH exam in Germany, none of what I recited was useful, but at least I passed it with eight months' learning of German. Then, all these computer stuff occupied my mind and almost all my time, and the pressure of study was incredibly high to me(I am by no means mathematic-minded, I hated it to death, but what I was fed all day long were nothing but math math math), I had no mood to learn the classics I forgot the German poetries and essays so fast and so thoroughly. . The computer books I read were 98% in English, believe it or not, my German got rustier and rustier after I came to Germany. Watching TV, listening to radio,...all the therapies I had tried, they only improved my listening but has little to do with the speaking ability. Then there was a Softwarepraktikum, it came the time that I had to communicate with people a lot in German, I had to read the long long local Verkehrsordnung(traffic rule)-the problem specification of the project-which has no English translation. And I really spoke German a lot during the project. Then things got better, in Spain what I intuitively said when got help from local people were not thanks but danke, when I wanted something what came out without thinking was "gibt es ..." but not "is there any...". I read Stefan Zweig's novels before I sleep, there are sooooo many strange words which could never be found in my class notes but luckily I had read the stories in Chinese, I know what's going on, just guessed and guessed, this way I learnt some words too. The way I build German sentences is still quite English. There is a joke, two diplomas were talking to each with the help of their translators, the German diploma talked talked and talked, but the translator kept listening silently, never started his translating. The other diploma lost patience and asked why didn't he translate, the translator answered, "dear diploma, please don't worry, his verb hasn't been there yet, one cannot tell what he is intended to say." This thing would never happen to me, my verbs always come early, very indecently
Funny enough, I stayed in a vacation house in Lloret Blau for a week. The local people speak Catalan, but all the books they put in the vacation house are in Dutch. So that I guess there are many Dutch people go there, rent a house and then spend their holiday in Catalonian sun shine. I was looking at those funny books, my friends told me not to, they said Dutch is not a fantastic language, uglier than German, I better learn some Catalan, rather than figuring out whether een is ein or not.

Regards,
Ellen
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Ellen Zhao:
Funny enough, I stayed in a vacation house in Lloret Blau for a week. The local people speak Catalan, but all the books they put in the vacation house are in Dutch. So that I guess there are many Dutch people go there, rent a house and then spend their holiday in Catalonian sun shine. I was looking at those funny books, my friends told me not to, they said Dutch is not a fantastic language, uglier than German, I better learn some Catalan, rather than figuring out whether een is ein or not.

Regards,
Ellen

how offensive, calling my language "uglier than German".
There ARE a lot of Dutch people that go to Spain on holiday, and to spend the winter there in timeshare houses and apartments.
In fact, my family owns a house in southern Catalunia where we try to spend some time each year.


42
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Posting in transit to Guatamala:
Haeuschen - little houses ( how little ?) this Babel Fish recognises !
Maeudchen - Madchen - little girls - Babel Fish recognises neither.
Dutch has a lot more ee's in the language so it should sound softer than German unless they screeeeeech the words ! No offence , Jeroen.
Back to travel surfing...
regards
[ September 22, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
ee is pronounced like a in English... Lot more a's in English than ee's in Dutch
Chris Baron
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
sound softer than German

It doesn't, rather like a severe cold. Sorry Jeroen, but that's true.
Polish sounds soft, they have some really nice dsssh, whuá and guttural sounds.
If a polish speaks good german with a little accent, our hart konsonantz get polished and it's sounds nicer than the original in my ear.
Rather like a cushy dialect.
Babelfish: Use Maedchen.
ä = ae
ö = oe
ü = ue
Btw. aeu looks very strange to me too.
@Ellen: I'am also offended why uglier, as if german was ugly. Just kidding... i think it's a real Leistung to learn our complicated language, especially when you are, as Chinese, from a total different language area.
cb
[ September 22, 2003: Message edited by: Chris Baron ]
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
ee is pronounced like a in English
'A' is pronounced too many different ways in English. But I'm guessing you mean Dutch "ee" is like "ay" in "say" - correct?
Ellen Zhao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 581
The two who were offended above,
the old couple who took me to Catalunia are both professional tour guides for decades of years, they are very worldly and open minded, they laugh at everything including themselves. When I was looking at (not reading) the Dutch books, they firstly laughed at Dutch and then the German. By the way, I have to admit der Chris from Mainz has a good nose, they did say German is ugly, after saying Dutch is uglier. I think they meant the pronounciations. To me, British English and French do sound better than German, sorry I want to know how Irish English sounds like, I was surprised how people in Great Britain love Irish people, but so far never really heard any...
There ARE a lot of Dutch people that go to Spain on holiday, and to spend the winter there in timeshare houses and apartments.

How true! I saw long long queues of Dutch lorries on Highway and big buses from Holland everywhere in Catalunia. People are travelling but the lorries...I guess they carry tons of Dutch flowers but not tons of Dutch language
In fact, my family owns a house in southern Catalunia where we try to spend some time each year.

In which village(or town) does it reside? Please label your house with something very Dutch, I will try to find it out if I go to Catalunia again next year.
Polish sounds soft, they have some really nice dsssh, whu� and guttural sounds.
If a polish speaks good german with a little accent, our hart konsonantz get polished and it's sounds nicer than the original in my ear.
Rather like a cushy dialect.

My �bungsleiterin of MathI, II, IV was a Polish German lady, without her singing like soft German I couldn't have made the math �bungen.

Regards,
Ellen
[ September 22, 2003: Message edited by: Ellen Zhao ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Ellen Zhao:
Polish German lady, without her singing like soft German I couldn't have made the math �bungen.

Learning Polish first then German may also improve your chances with Opera or Math it seems!
I had a soft spoken German teacher who taught me....er,German.
Unfortunately, it didn't stick through lack of practise!
I prefer operas in Italian. Any other language sucks at opera.English and German operas are an excruciating experience to be missed IMO!
Not that I understand Italian either but it's such a romantic language that the imagination fills the gaps beautifully. A couple of times seeing the same opera when the real thing comes through the romance is over I am afraid.
English and German don't have this effect as they are more to the point, direct.
Italian programmers must write beautiful programs.
Give me my beers in German, though.
regards
[ September 23, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Ellen Zhao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 581
Today I just got a new room mate who is from Belgium, her mother tongue is Dutch. Today she and her parents are here I heard a lot of Dutch, no, it doesn't sound so ugly as they described. Just now I helped her installed the local network, the OS in her computer is completely in Dutch, but it turned out that I configured her system without any problem, I'm very glad that German and Dutch are so similar
Peter has been away from here since July 3rd. Is he on a long vacation? I wish everything is fine with him.

To HS Thomas,
I disagree with you. Opera in German sounds great, at least to me. And, German opera has its own tradition, has its own unique style, so called "das Lied" sounds very pleasant but could be extremely difficult( not the language thing, but the music, the singing technique) to sing. Mozart's operas are always considered a great technical challenge to most of opera singers. I personally don't like Wagner very much(too strong too massive for me), but as an opera listener you simply cannot ignore him.
When speaking, Italian sounds a bit too fast/hectic to me, not romantic enough. But when singing it's okay. Never heard Opera in English.
Regards,
Ellen
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Peter has been away from here since July 3rd. Is he on a long vacation? I wish everything is fine with him.
Last I checked, he was fine, just very busy at work. He has a consulting job where the workload comes and goes; it's happened in the past that he was away from the ranch for a long time, then returns when his schedule allows it better.
Opera in German sounds great, at least to me.
Compared to Chinese opera, anyway.
See comments on German opera here.
Never heard Opera in English.
You're probably not missing much.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Peter has been away from here since July 3rd.

That was around the time he nearly bust a blood vessel or two in the SCJD forum. Unreferenced vs something else. I've also wondered what happened to him.
About Operas I quite like listening/watching Chinese Opera on TV.
My last Opera was a good five years ago at the Met in NY.
Verdi's Egytian Opera Aida. Huge theatre the performers looked like moving ants (the package deal only offered back seats) , spectacular costumes and stage props, lacklustre singing, dead boring. I was going to say I couldn't remember what language they sang in then I remembered one of the three tenors was supposed to lead but didn't turn up. Placido Domingo (Portugese though sings in Italian), you were WISE! What a disaster of a production.
I've also seen Dame Judi Dench in Othello. A great actress but hardly operatic. At least there I could watch facial expressions.
After what I said of German opera, my absolute fav new face is the young German countertenor
Andreas Scholl last seen in Glyndebourne. (Now they know how to stage an Opera.]
Amazing how learning one thing (Java and related technologies) can kill off another part of life.
regards
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Most romantic opera song I've heard is 'Voi che sapete' from Mozart's 'Le Nozze de Figaro'
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Hi IKK,
Have you heard Michael Bolton sing opera. I think he sang this one.
I can live with that smoky, heart breaking , "grab your heart strings" voice.
regards
[ September 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
That was around the time he nearly bust a blood vessel or two in the SCJD forum. Unreferenced vs something else. I've also wondered what happened to him.
Naah, that was a while before, on April 1. I remember because I initially thought people were just joking around, staging a big mock argument. PdH tired of Dev Cert after that, but was still posting elsewhere, as you can see here.
John Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
EZ: I read Stefan Zweig's novels
Ah, this is good stuff, especially the short stories.
HS T: That was around the time he nearly bust a blood vessel or two in the SCJD forum. Unreferenced vs something else.
Yeah, it was quite a boxing match, bare knuckles.
[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
bare knuckles
PdH - Pretty damn hot-headed!
Very good at explaining the Connection object and static vs non-static.
Do not use Singletons another Holy Grail. A smiling PdH on the JavaRanch
bartending page was rather surprising.
posted by Jim Yingst:
but was still posting elsewhere, as you can see here.

Ah,JDBC. He couldn't keep away from the Connection object.
regards
[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
John Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
Very good at explaining the Connection object and static vs non-static.
Do not use Singletons another Holy Grail. A smiling PdH on the JavaRanch
bartending page was rather surprising.

Yeah, PdH seemed to be a few standard deviations away from the mean in his depth of understanding the problems, yet he also has a great talent in explaining things to the mean of the curve.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Why are we talking as tho' he passed away ? Let's hope he comes back soon!
I am checking out this job in Amsterdam but wondering what it'll be like working with many PdHs.I worked with one Hollander and he burst a blood vessel at the end, but not with the right people.

I fear young Hollanders may have an identity crises. Sorry, Jeroen but that's the impression I have. Most speak fluent English. I met one of the nicest older couples (Dutch), who wittingly gave me some of the soundest advice (very personal, considering they were practically strangers).So I am generally a bit confused about the Dutch. I have only met three after all and I realise that's not a good basis to make a judgement.
There has been one excursion from work to Amsterdam but blatantly not to the most savoury districts . The Return of the Sore Rangers was played out to great effect on their arrival back! Another, "not a good basis" to make a judgement.
regards
[ September 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Learning a language
 
Similar Threads
Finished Head First Java - Help with picking my next Book to further my learning
Languages and Accents
vocabulary
Language doubt
Anyone going to Athens during the Olympics ?