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Pluta's Baby

Rufus BugleWeed
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Now, of course, the socially proper and politically correct thing to say is that I would love and cherish the baby, no matter what gender (which of course I would). That in today's world of equal opportunity that the old stereotypes of boys and girls have been shattered and that I have risen above those labels and am willing to accept the baby as simply a new human, with all the wonderful possibilities that that entails.
And I do.
Really, all of that is true.


In case you had not noticed Joe's had a new baby.
I'm suprised we don't have more announcements like this.
Any way, Joe, how much did the little guy weigh and has a name been decided?
Jim Yingst
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My impression was that there's been no birth yet, but he's learned the gender. Ultrasound I assume.


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Mapraputa Is
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Joe!
What is the origin of your last name? I smell something Slavic here. Should we invite you in our MD Slavs communitity? (me and Tom Paul )


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John Smith
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What is the origin of your last name? I smell something Slavic here
"Pluta" sounds awfully Polish to me, so I bet you that Joe's ancestors came here from Eastern Europe.
Should we invite you in our MD Slavs communitity? (me and Tom Paul)
Tom Paul is slavic, too? I'll be damned!
[ September 12, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
Joe Pluta
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Let's see here - Pluta is Polish, no Anglicization. "UTA" is a very Polish ending.
The baby is not here and won't be until next year, God willing and the crick don't rise, but we do know the gender thanks to amniocentesis. Mama and Baby Boy Pluta are happy and healthy.
Papa, on the other hand, is a wreck, and taking on every side job he can lay his hands on .
Joe
Joe Pluta
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And yes, my grandparents came from Poland - my dad's people from the farms and my mom's from the Russian border. My grandparents couldn't even understand one another's Polish. And don't think that THAT didn't cause some problems among my family!
Joe
John Smith
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JP: And yes, my grandparents came from Poland - my dad's people from the farms and my mom's from the Russian border.
I am willing to make another bet: your views on the politics, economics, and sociology reflect those of your folks on your mother side. Nothing Freudian implied here, by the way, -- just a matter of extrapolation. Am I right?
Joe Pluta
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My ethical views are almost entirely from my father, leavened somewhat with some parochial schooling.
My social views are probably mostly based on my upbringing, and that would probably be more my mother's influence. I was well on the "lower" side of lower-middle class, and my neighbors were all of a similar socio-ecomonic stratus. During my childhood and early adulthood my primary contacts were with economically disadvantaged folks of varied ethnic backbgrounds.
My political views are based entirely on studies of American and world history. I believe that democratic government, while imperfect, is the best form of government we have, and I believe that the Constitution of the United States is the most important document in human history.
My philosophical views, well, they come from a variety of sources, and I can't even begin to give you those. Suffice to say that my reading has been eclectic, and that I give equal opportunity to Kant and Castenada .
Joe
John Smith
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Suffice to say that my reading has been eclectic, and that I give equal opportunity to Kant and Castenada
Ah, here is where the harmony between you and your frequent advocate Thomas Paul breaks. Tom read Castenada when he was 16 but now he is too old for that nonsense. How about Kant, Tom?
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Tom Paul is slavic, too? I'll be damned!
Czech. (In fact, I'm related to Eduard Benes, the president of Czechoslovakia prior to WWII). My family was from around Prague. They came to the US in 1867. (The family story is that my great grandfather made some enemies in the Hapsburg royal family.) They actually emigrated to England first and then waited for the US Civil War to end. I'm not sure why they waited the 2 extra years... perhaps it took them that long to learn to read English newspapers.


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Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
How about Kant, Tom?
Emmanuel Kat was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.
John Smith
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TP: Emmanuel Kat was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.
That's very consistent with your felings about Castaneda, -- after all, both Castaneda and Kant promote transcendental idealism as their philosophy, and I am not surprised that Joe put them together. What I am surpised about is that how your philosophy of empirical realism leads you to the same opinions as Joe's transcendental idealism. Something is not right here.
Joe Pluta
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To be honest, I would bet that greater influence on my philosophy has been exerted by science fiction than by any other group. I'd say Asimov, Herbert, Bradbury, Heinlein and Roddenberry were my major philosophical influences (in no particular order), although there was a great swath of other wonderful authors thrown in, from Andersen to Bova to Clark, Cherryh to Le Guin, Niven to Pohl.
In recent years, it's been the hard SF of Bear, Benford and Brin, but in my youth I read anything and everything I could get my hands on.
Throw in Tolkein and Pratchett for a little fun, and then early Stephen King (esp. the Stand), add lots of MacDonald and Paretsky, toss in a good dollop of Doonesbury, and season with Adams and lots of Monty Python, and you've got the makings of a very well-rounded philosophy.
Good and Evil exist. Good must act lest Evil win out. God is in all of us. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations. The best we can achieve in this life is to live honorably. The only judges that count are God and the man in the mirror. Measure yourself by what you do when no-one is looking. Miracles happen. It's never too late to start over. Laughter makes us human. Love conquers all.
Simple stuff. Easy to say, hard to live.
Joe
Joe Pluta
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
[QBWhat I am surpised about is that how your philosophy of empirical realism leads you to the same opinions as Joe's transcendental idealism. Something is not right here.[/QB]

Or maybe truth can be reached from many directions, eh? There's nothing very special about our opinions. Where they agree, they basically celebrate the worth of the individual, love of life, and the joy of liberty. However you get to those values, they pretty much lead you to a pro-democracy, anti-fascism, anti-terrorism stance.
Nothing unusual in that.
Joe
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
TP: Emmanuel Kat was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.
That's very consistent with your felings about Castaneda...

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table
David Hume could out consume
Schopenhauer and Hegel
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel
There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed
John Stuart Mill, of his own free will
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill
Plato they say, could stick it away
Half a crate of whiskey every day
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle
Hobbes was fond of his dram
And Ren´┐Ż Descartes was a drunken fart
"I drink, therefore I am"
Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed
A lovely little thinker
But a bugger when he's pissed
John Smith
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Ok, that's a good start. I have a few questions, though. Jim Yingst may try to mislead you into believing that I am trying to provoke you, but I really have straightforward intentions to find out more about you (with the selfish intent to understand myself better).

Good and Evil exist.
In one entity or in distinct entities?
God is in all of us. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
In a Buddhistic sense or plain old Christian sense?
The best we can achieve in this life is to live honorably.
What does it mean to you?
The only judges that count are God and the man in the mirror.
Does that mean that you would be willing to break the civil/criminal law if you think that it contradicts your own beliefs?
Measure yourself by what you do when no-one is looking.
Which standards/criterias do you use when measuring yourself?
Miracles happen. It's never too late to start over.
Do these two come together or are you listing two separate concepts here?
Love conquers all.
In a Platonic sense?
Joe Pluta
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JP: Good and Evil exist.
EK: In one entity or in distinct entities?
Evil is a palpable entity. One of my favorite phrases: "The greatest trick Satan ever achieved was to convince Man that he doesn't exist." His minions wear lawyers' suits or microbiologists' smocks or General's uniforms.
Good is also an entity, and one that pervades all of us. And the two can battle inside one individual; and in fact, in some small degree they do all the time.

JP: God is in all of us. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
EK: In a Buddhistic sense or plain old Christian sense?
Yes . I think God speaks to us through others - this entire life is about meeting the people God has put in our path. And those people come from all walks of life, and the most unlikely places.

JP: The best we can achieve in this life is to live honorably.
EK: That does it mean to you?
To help the helpless, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry. To raise children to be just and fair and loving. To use no-one, to be honest, to have integrity in one's words and actions. To take no unfair advantage, to allow others to live and love and worship as they please, provided they too live honorably.

JP: The only judges that count are God and the man in the mirror.
EK: Does that mean that you would be willing to break the civil/criminal law if you think that it contradicts your own beliefs?
I believe that if I break the law, regardless of it's rightness or wrongness, I must suffer the consequences. I believe it is my duty to fight against unjust and unfair laws. And if I were put in the position where I had to break a law to act honorably, I would hope I would be able to do so, both in action and in taking the consequences.

JP: Measure yourself by what you do when no-one is looking.
EK: Which standards/criterias do you use when measuring yourself?
Honorable living, as I said above.

JP: Miracles happen. It's never too late to start over.
EK: Do these two come together or are you listing two separate concepts here?
They are separate but related. One miracle is that it is never too late to start over . But miracles do happen. Sometimes we see them and shrug them off as coincidences, but coincidences are God's way of remaining anonymous.

JP: Love conquers all.
EK: In a Platonic sense?
I didn't know Plato was into conquering things . Seriously, love for fellow man, love for your children, love for your partner, love for the world, there are soooooooo many ways to express love, and if everybody spent as much time on those as they did anything else, the world would be a much better place.

Joe
Mapraputa Is
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One more question. Joe, you are so patient. Were you born with this temperament, or is it life experience? I want to be patient like you.
Joe Pluta
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
One more question. Joe, you are so patient. Were you born with this temperament, or is it life experience? I want to be patient like you.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Not a chance I was born this way, Map. My temperament is an ongoing project. Right now, I think I'm finally beginning to win the battle of intellect over emotion - I am finally getting a little better at stopping myself from reacting emotionally in a non-constructive manner.
I hope to continue this journey, with the ultimate goal of being somewhat serene by the time I die. At the rate I'm going, however, that will require that I live to be about a hundred and forty .
Joe
John Smith
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Thanks for taking your time to give me the straight answers, Joe, I appreciate it. I think I get the picture, but I need to clarify a few more details.
Evil is a palpable entity. One of my favorite phrases: "The greatest trick Satan ever achieved was to convince Man that he doesn't exist." His minions wear lawyers' suits or microbiologists' smocks or General's uniforms.
If Evil is a palpable entity, do you sense it with your intellect or your emotions? How do you make a determination that you see evil in the not so obvious cases? For example, is Dr. Kevorkian evil? How about driving an SUV and burning gas with the proceeds flowing to the terrorists?
Good is also an entity, and one that pervades all of us. And the two can battle inside one individual; and in fact, in some small degree they do all the time.
Is that a bug or a feature in the design by the creator?
I think God speaks to us through others - this entire life is about meeting the people God has put in our path.
Do you mean that's the purpose and meaning of life, -- to meet people? Are you content with that explanation?
To help the helpless, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry.
Do you believe that Ayne Rand and her followers are dishonorable? Perhaps even evil?
And if I were put in the position where I had to break a law to act honorably, I would hope I would be able to do so, both in action and in taking the consequences.
Good.
Sometimes we see them and shrug them off as coincidences, but coincidences are God's way of remaining anonymous.
So the seemingly random quantum processes and the radioactive decay are controlled by God, too?
[ September 12, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
HS Thomas
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Joe, I really like your philosophies. It's amazing what a birth of a child brings to the fore. Let's hope you live to a 140. We've so much to learn.
regards
Joe Pluta
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JP: Evil is a palpable entity. One of my favorite phrases: "The greatest trick Satan ever achieved was to convince Man that he doesn't exist." His minions wear lawyers' suits or microbiologists' smocks or General's uniforms.
EK: If Evil is a palpable entity, do you sense it with your intellect or your emotions? How do you make a determination that you see evil in the not so obvious cases? For example, is Dr. Kevorkian evil? How about driving an SUV and burning gas with the proceeds flowing to the terrorists?
Without meeting someone, it's an intellectual exercise, and it has to do with a very simple concept: if you have both power over and responsibility for someone, and you abuse that power, then you are acting Evilly. There are many relationships that foster that sort of responsibility: parent/child, teacher/student, minister/ministrant, doctor/patient, government/citizen, guard/criminal.
So far, I have never met someone I consider wholly or even primarily Evil in person. My guess is that I would have some sort of visceral, hindbrain reaction. However, some of the most Evil people we have records of are sociopaths, and sociopaths by their nature can often make you feel as though they are wonderful, loving people. It's the old saw: "Sincerity is the key. Once you can fake that, you've got it made." I do have one informal test of whether someone has decent character: I see how dogs and little kids react to them. For some reason, kids and dogs tend to see through veneers. Then again, that might just be because I LIKE kids and dogs .

JP: Good is also an entity, and one that pervades all of us. And the two can battle inside one individual; and in fact, in some small degree they do all the time.
EK: Is that a bug or a feature in the design by the creator?
It's a byproduct of free will. Can't have one without the other. Free will is a real bitch to integrate with omniscience and omnipotence. I still haggle with that.

JP: I think God speaks to us through others - this entire life is about meeting the people God has put in our path.
EK: Do you mean that's the purpose and meaning of life, -- to meet people? Are you content with that explanation?
(LOL!) You're asking me about the meaning of life? No way, I'm not Dr. Phil . Seriously though, I believe the master plan is ineffable, and I really don't want to know. Would you want to know the exact time and day of your death, and everything that will happen to you until that point? Understanding God's plan would require something like that, I think. However, I do think He's made it abundantly clear how we're supposed to act toward one another; I think that most people feel it in their bones. You don't kick dogs, you don't beat children, you don't punch your lover. Living a good life is simple - it's just not alwasy easy.
On the other hand, the issue of meeting people is important. I think that's one of the ways that God opens doors for you. I believe a couple of things. First, if you want to make God laugh, tell Him what your plans are. Second, God wants us all to be happy. Faith is believing His plans for you are better than your plans.

JP: To help the helpless, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry.
EK: Do you believe that Ayne Rand and her followers are dishonorable? Perhaps even evil?
(Sigh.) I don't know. Not Evil, certainly - they take no advantage, only present their ideas. Dishonorable? I don't know. As far as I can figure, Objectivism is about achieving one's goals without harming anyone else except in self-defense. This is not particularly noble, but neither is it dishonorable.
I don't expect everyone to fall on a grenade for their fellow man, or live in a trailer home that starving orphans in Laos have food - although either course of action is absolutely honorable or even Good in my view of the world. Each person will have their own ladder of ethical priorities, and as long as each of those priorities is not DIShonorable, then I think you lead a reasonable honorable life.
Does that help?

JP: Sometimes we see them and shrug them off as coincidences, but coincidences are God's way of remaining anonymous.
EK: So the seemingly random quantum processes and the radioactive decay are controlled by God, too?
Does he personally plink apart each decaying hadron? I sorta doubt it. But is it all part of His ineffable master plan? Yup. Just looking out the window on a summer day convinces me this is not all an accident. Galaxies, children, Autumn, music, these all combined to give me a sense of some Hand involved in the process.
But I needed more, so I made in-depth studies of cosmology, physics and biochemistry. These taught me how fragile our universe is - how even the tiniest variations in any of dozens of universal constants would lead to a universe devoid of life. That incredible raft of coincidences leads me to believe Someone is out there.
There are a number of philosophical ideologies that can lead to a universe without a creator. There's one set in particular (variations of the Anthropic Principle) that expound an infinite number of universes, including at least one that supports life. However, we only know of our own, and thus, by definition the only universe we see is one with all those constants set properly.
Very clever, these philosophers.
Joe
Joe Pluta
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Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Joe, I really like your philosophies. It's amazing what a birth of a child brings to the fore. Let's hope you live to a 140. We've so much to learn.

Thanks. I appreciate the thought. I'm just thrilled to have the chance to raise my new son, is all.
Joe
Jim Yingst
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I believe the master plan is ineffable
You're saying there's no effing master plan?
OK, sorry, I couldn't help myself.
I was all set to bring up the anthropic principle in response to your third to last paragraph, but you beat me to it.
In recent years, it's been the hard SF of Bear, Benford and Brin.
Ah, a fan of the Killer Bees. Don't forget more recent inductees Baxter and Vinge.
John Smith
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Thanks for your patience and the willingness to open up, Joe. I now know what you are. That will give me an unfair advantage in our future debates.
Joe Pluta
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Thanks for your patience and the willingness to open up, Joe. I now know what you are. That will give me an unfair advantage in our future debates.

Nahh... you'll make your points based on merit, regardless of how you position yourself. Lots of people "know" me, but not many can best me in a good debate .
Joe
Joe Pluta
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Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
I was all set to bring up the anthropic principle in response to your third to last paragraph, but you beat me to it.

I always know the opposite argument. I was trained in the Jesuit tradition. It's not enough to have an opinion; you must also embrace the antitheses to your opinion, otherwise you have position without foundation.
Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Ah, a fan of the Killer Bees. Don't forget more recent inductees Baxter and Vinge.

Baxter I've read, not Vinge. On my list now, though... thanks for the mention.
Joe
Jim Yingst
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I've read little Baxter (so-so), more Vinge (very good). It may be worth noting that Vinge was a professor of computer science at UCSD, recently retired. "True Names" predated Gibson by years, and was a lot more accurate. A Fire Upon the Deep and A Deepness in the Sky are great reads. (Same universe, but the order is unimportant - read either first.) And there's a lot of good stuff here. Enjoy.
Anonymous
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Joe why are u trying to be religious today???. if you think u are perfect U ARE NOT. u are just a human being. no one is perfect. Cherish what u have got and try to be happy with what u are. u have got a baby boy. thats a sacred thing. u are responsible for a birth of a baby boy. take care of that mama and boy. [ deleted ] but i do not want to spoil the moment. [ which would explain why you're inserting baseless and inane insults into your post - Jim] I congratulate u for a baby boy. should be a happiest moment in your life. A life is brought to earth and to see it to come alive and breath air of this earth got to be a happiest moment. I wish one day i can have that too. You have to see a women;s face when they give birth and its precious. women are beautiful whatever shape they are, but to give birth is THEIR right and ONLY they can do that.
[ September 14, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Joe Pluta
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Name a way that I'm "fickle as hell" or a "hypocrite".
Otherwise, apologize. I don't know who you are, and I've never addressed you, so lay off the personal attacks.
Good grief.
Joe
Jim Yingst
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Excuse me, "I Killed Kenny", but your insults are completely uncalled for, and not welcome here. (In addition to which, I have no idea what you're talking about, but oh well.) Post politely, or not at all. Thank you.
Anonymous
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sorry folks, wrong post, didn't know what I was doing last nite. May be i will start a different thread discussion about Joe alone how he 'THINKS' himself as a 'SELF RIGHTEOUS' person and every other person outthere is less than him. Now this aint insult so dont delete it.
Donald R. Cossitt
buckaroo
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What "I Killed Kenny" is trying to say is if what anyone else has to say is not in agreement with his world view, then the other is not allowed to say it - a contemporary liberal's definition of the 1st ammendment, democracy, diversity and tolerance.
What Joe has said is he began life in one set of circumstances and has grown through and because of them. Remember, Joe quite infatically stated that if he was wrong he was quite willing and of necessity, to suffer the consequences as well as reap the benefit of being quite correct. How about you IKK, are you that afraid of change? Success is not a destination but a journey. It seems to me Joe is experiencing a great one!
A vulgar tongue is evidence of a feeble mind trying to express itself forcibly.


doco
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Donald R. Cossitt:
What "I Killed Kenny" is trying to say is if what anyone else has to say is not in agreement with his world view, then the other is not allowed to say it - a contemporary liberal's definition of the 1st ammendment, democracy, diversity and tolerance.
What Joe has said is he began life in one set of circumstances and has grown through and because of them. Remember, Joe quite infatically stated that if he was wrong he was quite willing and of necessity, to suffer the consequences as well as reap the benefit of being quite correct. How about you IKK, are you that afraid of change? Success is not a destination but a journey. It seems to me Joe is experiencing a great one!
A vulgar tongue is evidence of a feeble mind trying to express itself forcibly.

I am talking about Consistency which I never find in Joe's posts of his views towards world or people. Change is good and for cryin' out loud, saying something today and another thing tomorrow thats not change. if thats what he is experiencing good for him. and may be you need check yourself out too, I have seen many instances of Joe being vulgar to nasty in his posts but hey I find it amusing that mods always give him a benefit of doubt and whack others. I never take anything personally even you spit on my face . Everyone is entitled to his own opinion i dont even know you and wont try to change your opinion and similarly Joe. When you in a 'internet community' you face the same people everyday. Do I need you folks to like me and kiss my rear hell no and I dont care
Joe Pluta
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IKK: I am talking about Consistency which I never find in Joe's posts of his views towards world or people.
Perhaps you could share two quotes of mine which you consider inconsistent. To be honest, I thought I was pretty consistent, and in fact that was what I was striving for - a consistent worldview, which is really difficult to come by! So if there's a place where I am NOT consistent, I'd really like it brought to my attention. That will help me. Thanks!

I have seen many instances of Joe being vulgar to nasty in his posts but hey I find it amusing that mods always give him a benefit of doubt and whack others.
"Nasty" is pretty vague, and I admit that I am sometimes abrasive, but I'd be interested to see what you consider vulgar. Again, please post an example.

The rest of your post I don't really understand. Sorry.
Joe
Joe Pluta
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Originally posted by Donald R. Cossitt:
It seems to me Joe is experiencing a great one!

It's certainly been interesting!
Joe
 
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