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Illegal Aliens Can Get Driver's License In Some 15 States In the U.S.?

Natalie Kopple
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Joined: May 06, 2003
Posts: 325
I do not understand why illegal aliens can have driver's license. Illegal is illegal. Why the illegal can have something legal?
Just for fun, Osama bin Laden's driver's license is posted on the internet at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/h1bfraud
Paul Stevens
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Joined: May 17, 2001
Posts: 2823
It is to try to buy votes.
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
we's people too. how's we supposed to get around if we cain't drive?
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
I want to run for public office too.
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Blame it on Neil Diamond:
Far
We've been traveling far
Without a home
But not without a star
Free
Only want to be free
We huddle close
Hang on to a dream
On the boats and on the planes
They're coming to America
Never looking back again
They're coming to America
Home, don't it seem so far away
Oh, we're traveling light today
In the eye of the storm
In the eye of the storm
Home, to a new and a shiny place
Make our bed, and we'll say our grace
Freedom's light burning warm
Freedom's light burning warm
Everywhere around the world
They're coming to America
Every time that flag's unfurled
They're coming to America
Got a dream to take them there
They're coming to America
Got a dream they've come to share
They're coming to America
They're coming to America
They're coming to America
They're coming to America
They're coming to America
Today, today, today, today, today
My country 'tis of thee
Today
Sweet land of liberty
Today
Of thee I sing
Today
Of thee I sing
Today
Superb !
About a year later, still sticking with Neil Diamond:
Blue HighWay: ( the sentences are a bit longer but Neil had some help here, Howard Harlan)
Words and Music by Neil Diamond and Harlan Howard
So long, big city; it's time to say goodbye.
I'm longing for those country roads;
I need to see the sky.
Think I'll take a swing down south, visit Tennessee.
See if that girl Annie still remembers me.
Gonna take that blue highway and leave this sorry town.
Stayed too long, but now I'm gone, and I know where I'm bound.
I don't wanna take the interstate; it represents all the things I hate.
I'm rollin' down that blue highway.
So long, confusion; it's time to slow things down.
Say goodbye to my old friends, ease on out of town.
I made me some money here but paid for ev'ry day.
And ev'ry mile just makes me smile, 'cause I made my getaway.
Gonna take that blue highway and leave this sorry town.
I've stayed too long, but now I'm gone, and I know where I'm bound.
I've had it up to here with worry.
From now on, I'm in no hurry, rollin' down that blue highway.
I'll be ridin' that blue highway and leave this sorry town.
I've stayed too long, but now I'm gone, and I know where I'm bound.
I've had it up to here with worry.
From now on, I'm in no hurry, rollin' down that blue highway.
I'll be rollin' down that blue highway.
You can find me on that blue highway.
Neil Diamond advices on getting on with life!
regards
Donald R. Cossitt
buckaroo
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 401
The problem is not necessarily one of aliens but of economy. The home grown American has to have a 2,000 sq ft home, two or three cars, a boat, an RV, several ATV's, jet skis, sick pay, holidays, vacations, a huge travel and party budget, retirement funds and a 1500+/- hour work year. This requires a two income family of about 40k each (and several credit cards at maximum limit). The alien just wants to survive; this takes everyone in the family working 2K to 4K hours annually to make 14K to 20K total and they're willing. Afterall, it's still a hell-of-alot more than where they came from. But what they really want is not a wage but a chance at something better and they will sacrifice to get it.
In this scenario both political parties win: the Republicans get cheap labor and the Dems get larger masses who are dependent on government. Oh, and BTW, they eventually are naturalized or have children who eventually VOTE and for all the wrong reasons.
The function of government is to do for people that which they cannot do for themselves - which is not much! We 'homies' have forgotten this. Is it no wonder that our government is selling us down the road?
[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: Donald R. Cossitt ]

doco
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Is proof of US citizenship required to obtain a driver's license in those 15 states?
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Donald R. Cossitt:
...[/QB]

Your post confuses me. You seem to start out defending the illegal aliens and then end your post by criticizing the goverment.
IMHO, the government fails at the very moment it confers any rights to people who have broken the law in the first place. By this I dont mean just a drivers license but even medical treatment.


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

IMHO, the government fails at the very moment it confers any rights to people who have broken the law in the first place. By this I dont mean just a drivers license but even medical treatment.

Medical treatment and driving on government-maintained roads are not rights of citizenship in this country.
A person must demonstrate their ability to operate a vehicle safely.
You would deny a basic human need like medical treatment to a person because they're here illegally? Wouldn't that be a nice picture, people dying on hospital steps in the US because they don't carry the right papers? I hope you're just a having a bad day...
[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
[Paul Stevens]: It is to try to buy votes.
So, how does that work? Aliens, illegal or not, still can't actually vote, right? They have to become citizens first. Or are you suggesting that by being nice to the illegal aliens, politicians are currying favor with other people who sympathize with illegals, but are actual citizens? If so - what's wrong with that, why is it "buying"? One of the basic ideas of representative democracy is that elected officials usually need to act in ways that their constituents approve of in order to get re-elected. How is this different from, say, enacting a law to limit pollution because voters don't like breathing smog? Is that buying votes too?
For reference, here are the 15 states that allow illegals to get licenses, either because they're specifically allowed, or because the state does not actually check citizenship as part of their process:
California, Alaska, Connecticut, Idaho, Louisiana, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Utah, Washington and West Virginia
Now California is I believe the only one of these where the law is recent. And given the situation with the recall there, it's certainly conceivable that Gov. Davis' motives weren't entirely altruistic. (Or maybe they were, dunno, just acknowledging that there are a lot of factors here.) However, of the others - how many of these are states where politicians are likely to be trying to win votes from minorities by making things easier for illegal immigrants? (E.g. Utah? Seems unlikely.)
[Michael Ernest]: Is proof of US citizenship required to obtain a driver's license in those 15 states?
The 15 states referenced in the title of this thread? Evidently not. Were you asking about the other 35 maybe? I'm not sure, but my impression is that yes they do require some sort of documentation now, though they may not have in the past. Rules have been tightening up in this area since 9/11.
"Paul McKenna" - what's with the new name, BTW? Anyway, Michael has already said what I would have here.
As far as motivation, why do states allow this: I think that for most it was proably a decision to prioritize road safety over immigration enforcement. Illegal aliens are out there and driving whether they're allowed or not. Allowing them to have licenses allows them to get insurance, which is good for everyone, IMO. Most of these state laws were in place before 9/11, and made pretty good sense at the time. Since then they've become more questionable, as the government does have a legitimate need to track potential threats. I'm not saying there aren't problems with letting illegal aliens have drivers' licenses; I'm just saying that there are also legitimate reasons to do it, IMO.
[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Medical treatment and driving on government-maintained roads are not rights of citizenship in this country.

Allright, I'll rephrase. The government fails at the moment it provides its "services" to people who have failed to respect its laws in the first place.

A person must demonstrate their ability to operate a vehicle safely.

Likewise, shouldn't the person be able to demonstrate that they respect the law of the land before trying to benefit off it?

You would deny a basic human need like medical treatment to a person because they're here illegally? Wouldn't that be a nice picture, people dying on hospital steps in the US because they don't carry the right papers? I hope you're just a having a bad day...

I need to pay my dentist a visit for a tooth extraction. I'll send the bill to you, because frankly I can't afford it. If people cross over the border and then make use of the medical services in extremely exceptional cases I'd accept it. But frankly, I dont see that happening. Infact earlier this year wasnt there a girl from mexico who was supposed to undergo a lung transplant and the doctors goofed up by transplanting an organ from an incompatible donor?? Well.. guess what, I feel really sorry for the family since they had to undergo that tragedy but my sympathy turned to outrage when I heard they were going to sue the hospital for an undisclosed amount. First of all, they were here illegally, secondly they had the first surgery out of charity money and now that by quirk of fate things have gone wrong, they want to go back home with a big fat check??? Or would you like to hear the story about the chinese woman who threw herself on the subway tracks in NYC and then sue the city for negligent driving. Surprise, surprise!! she won!! 14 millions dollars (I may be wrong on the exact amount) of the city's money!!
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
"Paul McKenna" - what's with the new name, BTW? Anyway, Michael has already said what I would have here.

I'm masking my identity (apparently not so well..)!!

As far as motivation, why do states allow this: I think that for most it was proably a decision to prioritize road safety over immigration enforcement. Illegal aliens are out there and driving whether they're allowed or not. Allowing them to have licenses allows them to get insurance, which is good for everyone, IMO. Most of these state laws were in place before 9/11, and made pretty good sense at the time. Since then they've become more questionable, as the government does have a legitimate need to track potential threats. I'm not saying there aren't problems with letting illegal aliens have drivers' licenses; I'm just saying that there are also legitimate reasons to do it, IMO.

I have a problem with the fact that they'd recognize someone as an illegal alien and still provide him with paperwork. If we were to speak more practically, shouldnt we be nabbing these illegal aliens the moment they apply for a drivers license and deport them the very next instant??
Anyway, I'm planning to take spanish lessons if things deteriorate at this rate.
stara szkapa
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Joined: Mar 27, 2003
Posts: 321
Originally posted by Natalie Kopple:
I do not understand why illegal aliens can have driver's license.

For the same reason they are allowed to rent apartments, buy hamburgers, have 5$ per hour jobs. What I don�t understand is why they pay taxes.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

PM: Allright, I'll rephrase. The government fails at the moment it provides its "services" to people who have failed to respect its laws in the first place.
ME: That's a very ugly position, in my view. I prefer a country that believes, however imperfectly it might maintain its beliefs, that humanity precedes citizenry. On a more practical note, I'd like to think that our citizens are treated well abroad because we treat citizens of other countries as well as we can.
PK: (S)houldn't the person be able to demonstrate that they respect the law of the land before trying to benefit off it?
I think for most people sneaking across the border, factors such as necessity and desperation, as well as envy or ignorance of the alternatives, enter into it. But to presume that respecting the law of the land is a person's foremost concern I think misses the point. I'd guess most people don't run across the border to show disrespect.
PK: I need to pay my dentist a visit for a tooth extraction. I'll send the bill to you, because frankly I can't afford it.
ME: I have been working myself since I was 15 years old: odd jobs, paper routes, gas station attendant, and so on. I remember very well what it's like to get by on very little. I learned how to do it. But I really can't remember the last time I envied a man who had to take on the Border Patrol, leave his family for weeks at a time, live in fear of being caught and and deported, all for the chance to shovel horse manure, mow lawns, wash dishes, or pick fruit for a few dollars a day. I sure can't remember thinking of all the money that was getting sucked from me when those people exploited our welfare services.
I do remember growing up and needing various vaccinations we couldn't pay for through a private doctor. We relied on HEW programs for that. I do remember growing in project neighborhoods, around angry men who couldn't find work, children with distended bellies wearing hand-me-down t-shirts, mothers who had to make do on $116 worth of food stamps a month.
Being a kid at the time, I never really understood how tight an existence some of those people lived. It's a grim thing, and it's no crime in my mind if those people wanted something better. It's also no surprise to me if 'respecting the law of the land' isn't their top concern. Most people who are desperate are just following the drive to take care of themselves and their families. They're just trying to get by. Sometimes that amounts to crime, yeah. You have nothing, you need something. What else do you do?
How angry do you want to get about that?
PK: If people cross over the border and then make use of the medical services in extremely exceptional cases I'd accept it. But frankly, I dont see that happening.
ME: Given that using medical services are one way people fear being tracked by INS, I'd guess they use it sparingly, unless they're brave or ignorant or both.
PK: In fact earlier this year wasnt there a girl from mexico who was supposed to undergo a lung transplant and the doctors goofed up by transplanting an organ from an incompatible donor?? Well.. guess what, I feel really sorry for the family since they had to undergo that tragedy but my sympathy turned to outrage when I heard they were going to sue the hospital for an undisclosed amount. First of all, they were here illegally, secondly they had the first surgery out of charity money and now that by quirk of fate things have gone wrong, they want to go back home with a big fat check???
ME: What about that set of circumstances absolved the hospital and its staff from performing a procedure correctly, and "doing no harm"? It's not charitable act if the girl ends up being given a lung her body will reject and possibly put her well behind where she started. What protection would you look for? Would you as a father go home, tsking your bad luck?
PK: Or would you like to hear the story about the chinese woman who threw herself on the subway tracks in NYC and then sue the city for negligent driving. Surprise, surprise!! she won!! 14 millions dollars (I may be wrong on the exact amount) of the city's money!!
ME: Let's say I take that story at face value. Show me how such acts would never take place again if we had tighter border control. If you could, then I'd believe this problem was actually a function of illegal immigration, and not just another crazy, greedy idiot who a) got lucky and b) happens not to be a citizen.
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
On a more practical note, I'd like to think that our citizens are treated well abroad because we treat citizens of other countries as well as we can.
I don't have time to get into this debate, but I make an observation:
I know that my world has gotten smaller thanks to terrorism. I taught a seminar at IBM Tel Aviv in 1999, and was all set to return the following year when it became clear that it was no longer safe for American citizens to travel to the Middle East. I have not returned since, and there is no indication that I will again. That's how Americans are treated abroad.
Joe
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

That's how you've been treated, so far, anyway. Personally, I haven't been out of the country to a place I wouldn't visit again.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Before we continue, let me make it clear to you Michael that I mean no disrespect through any of my posts / comments.
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
I'd like to think that our citizens are treated well abroad because we treat citizens of other countries as well as we can.

Please watch the tapes that played on TV after 9/11 with crowds cheering for the terrorists and tell me you feel the same way. Oh! and those hijackers.. they were here illegally as well, and treated "as well as they could be"

I'd guess most people don't run across the border to show disrespect.

I'll agree with you on this.. but tell me, why should I wait for 5 years to get my green card and then another 5 years to get my citizenship to benefit the same way. Oh! and did I forget to mention that I need to keep an impeccable record all along lest the immigration officer thinks I am a trouble maker and prepares my deportation papers.

But I really can't remember the last time I envied a man who had to take on the Border Patrol, leave his family for weeks at a time, live in fear of being caught and and deported, all for the chance to shovel horse manure, mow lawns, wash dishes, or pick fruit for a few dollars a day.

Michael, where have you been. Haven't you been watching the news??? Even the liberal CBS showed footage of entire entourages walking across some national park in New Mexico without any fear for the border patrol. Inspite of all this, I'd openly welcome Mexicans because I've seen some of them labor and they truly are hard working, respectful and want a better life. But do you think about how easily the same route can be exploited by terrorists???
If we keep silent when a law is broken then why not break every law. The solution is to amend the law by means of a guest worker program etc. So that we know only Mexicans are coming through and not some Arab terrorists.


ME: Given that using medical services are one way people fear being tracked by INS, I'd guess they use it sparingly, unless they're brave or ignorant or both.

Umm... so applying the same argument to drivers licenses, whats the point of offering them if they will only be applied for by the brave / ignorant illegals

ME: What about that set of circumstances absolved the hospital and its staff from performing a procedure correctly, and "doing no harm"? It's not charitable act if the girl ends up being given a lung her body will reject and possibly put her well behind where she started. What protection would you look for? Would you as a father go home, tsking your bad luck?

If I were the father, I'd be suing to ensure that doctor never practises medicine for the rest of his life. But NEVER!! would I place a price tag on the life of my daughter

ME: Let's say I take that story at face value. Show me how such acts would never take place again if we had tighter border control. If you could, then I'd believe this problem was actually a function of illegal immigration, and not just another crazy, greedy idiot who a) got lucky and b) happens not to be a citizen.

I'll agree with your argument
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
You miss my point. I was treated wonderfully, and I loved it. However, I was advised by my Israeli colleagues that travel was unsafe (and indeed the same is noted by our own State Department). If you don't believe me, feel free to check the list from the State Department:
Travel Warnings:
Algeria - 9/5/2003
Indonesia - 8/28/2003
Iraq - 8/22/2003
Yemen - 8/20/2003
Cote d�Ivoire - 8/13/2003
Saudi Arabia - 8/13/2003
Burundi - 8/12/2003
Afghanistan - 7/28/2003
Nigeria - 6/26/2003
Colombia - 6/16/2003
Liberia - 6/6/2003
Kenya - 5/16/2003
Iran - 5/12/2003
Lebanon - 5/6/2003
Israel, the West Bank and Gaza - 4/17/2003
Pakistan - 4/17/2003
Central African Republic - 4/7/2003
Democratic Republic of the Congo - 4/7/2003
Sudan - 3/26/2003
Angola - 3/24/2003
Somalia - 3/4/2003
Zimbabwe - 1/27/2003
Tajikistan - 12/20/2002
Libya - 10/7/2002
Bosnia - 6/4/2002
Other announcements:
The Bahamas - 9/16/2003, expires on 9/30/2003
East Africa - 9/12/2003, expires on 3/13/2004
Worldwide Caution - 9/10/2003, expires on 2/10/2004
Solomon Islands - 9/8/2003, expires on 3/6/2004
United Arab Emirates - 9/2/2003, expires on 10/1/2003
Nepal - 8/29/2003, expires on 11/27/2003
Laos - 8/28/2003, expires on 2/27/2004
Guatemala - 8/26/2003, expires on 1/15/2004
Venezuela - 8/15/2003, expires on 2/28/2004
Djibouti - 7/16/2003, expires on 10/17/2003
Philippines - 7/16/2003, expires on 1/17/2004
Malaysia - 5/14/2003, expires on 11/14/2003
Kyrgyz Republic - 5/6/2003, expires on 10/31/2003
Middle East Update - 5/5/2003, expires on 10/1/2003
Uzbekistan - 4/5/2003, expires on 10/1/2003
The world is no longer a safe place for Americans, if you consider the world to be anything outside of North America and Western Europe. Oh, and the Aussies still love us!
Joe
P.S. The Bahamas alert was because of Isabel. The rest are basically terrorism alerts.
Paul Stevens
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Joined: May 17, 2001
Posts: 2823
Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
[Paul Stevens]: It is to try to buy votes.
So, how does that work? Aliens, illegal or not, still can't actually vote, right? They have to become citizens first. Or are you suggesting that by being nice to the illegal aliens, politicians are currying favor with other people who sympathize with illegals, but are actual citizens? If so - what's wrong with that, why is it "buying"? One of the basic ideas of representative democracy is that elected officials usually need to act in ways that their constituents approve of in order to get re-elected. How is this different from, say, enacting a law to limit pollution because voters don't like breathing smog? Is that buying votes too?
For reference, here are the 15 states that allow illegals to get licenses, either because they're specifically allowed, or because the state does not actually check citizenship as part of their process:
California, Alaska, Connecticut, Idaho, Louisiana, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Utah, Washington and West Virginia
Now California is I believe the only one of these where the law is recent. And given the situation with the recall there, it's certainly conceivable that Gov. Davis' motives weren't entirely altruistic. (Or maybe they were, dunno, just acknowledging that there are a lot of factors here.) However, of the others - how many of these are states where politicians are likely to be trying to win votes from minorities by making things easier for illegal immigrants? (E.g. Utah? Seems unlikely.)
[Michael Ernest]: Is proof of US citizenship required to obtain a driver's license in those 15 states?
The 15 states referenced in the title of this thread? Evidently not. Were you asking about the other 35 maybe? I'm not sure, but my impression is that yes they do require some sort of documentation now, though they may not have in the past. Rules have been tightening up in this area since 9/11.
"Paul McKenna" - what's with the new name, BTW? Anyway, Michael has already said what I would have here.
As far as motivation, why do states allow this: I think that for most it was proably a decision to prioritize road safety over immigration enforcement. Illegal aliens are out there and driving whether they're allowed or not. Allowing them to have licenses allows them to get insurance, which is good for everyone, IMO. Most of these state laws were in place before 9/11, and made pretty good sense at the time. Since then they've become more questionable, as the government does have a legitimate need to track potential threats. I'm not saying there aren't problems with letting illegal aliens have drivers' licenses; I'm just saying that there are also legitimate reasons to do it, IMO.
[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]


You know exactly how it works. Pandering to a group to get votes. You also know that some do indeed vote. The dead even vote in Chicago.
Kevin Arnold
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Joined: Apr 30, 2003
Posts: 30
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
I prefer a country that believes, however imperfectly it might maintain its beliefs, that humanity precedes citizenry.

clap! clap! clap! clap! clap! clap! clap!
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Please watch the tapes that played on TV after 9/11 with crowds cheering for the terrorists and tell me you feel the same way. Oh! and those hijackers.. they were here illegally as well, and treated "as well as they could be"

If it was a war I 'would' have probably thought, ok they are probably cheering for their country. But muslims all over the middle east were celebrating like a national achievement or some crap like that which was the most retarded, disgusting, down low human feces licking behavior I have ever seen for a terrorist attack.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
From an interview with Azar Nafisi:
"What we did need from abroad, and what we are not properly getting, is genuine support for democratic movements in that country, even just in terms of the media coverage. After September 11, I was so disappointed that when 40,000 Iranians came out to the streets in Iran under threat of jail or torture and lit candles in sympathy with the American people, it got so little attention. Why should other demonstrations, just because they were noisier, get so much more attention? "
http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/int2003-05-07.htm


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Kevin Arnold
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Joined: Apr 30, 2003
Posts: 30
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I'll agree with you on this.. but tell me, why should I wait for 5 years to get my green card and then another 5 years to get my citizenship to benefit the same way.

Many American's think the laws that allow you to do that are wrong. Do you only support laws that benefit you personally? You obviously aspire to a green card because your home country holds no allure for you. In a sense your country has failed to meet your expectations. Try to leave that mindset (which is the root cause of that failure) behind you.
Americans like the gentleman quoted in the previous post are the reason why America is America. If you want to be an American aspire to be a good one.
Mark Fletcher
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 08, 2001
Posts: 897
Originally posted by Natalie Kopple:
I do not understand why illegal aliens can have driver's license. Illegal is illegal. Why the illegal can have something legal?

Because the Illegal Aliens have big, big ray guns. And they give anal probes.


Mark Fletcher - http://www.markfletcher.org/blog
I had some Java certs, but they're too old now...
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Kevin Arnold:

If you want to be an American aspire to be a good one.

Oh.. I do.. I do! I just intend to be an American who doesnt tolerates other people who wont be good (that means respecting the law of the land, first and foremost!)
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Kevin Arnold:

Many American's think the laws that allow you to do that are wrong. Do you only support laws that benefit you personally? You obviously aspire to a green card because your home country holds no allure for you. In a sense your country has failed to meet your expectations. Try to leave that mindset (which is the root cause of that failure) behind you.

Ummm.. so what is a Sri Lankan doing in the middle east? What happened to the "failure causing" mindset??? I aspire to be an American because people in my homeland have become too tolerant of people who break the law. And I plan to do everything I can to ensure that doesnt happen in America too.
Kevin Arnold
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 30, 2003
Posts: 30
Paul McKenna: Ummm.. so what is a Sri Lankan doing in the middle east? What happened to the "failure causing" mindset???
KA : I am here because my company sent me here. I am not here for some green card.
Paul McKenna: I aspire to be an American because people in my homeland have become too tolerant of people who break the law.
KA : There are very few countries that are more tolerant than the US. That makes sense if you were coming here from a country like Norway, Sweden or Netherlands. That sounds comical coming from an Indian I hope it has nothing to do with the fact that it is a third world country and that you can't possibly hope to make half as much money as you do now in your home country.

Paul McKenna: And I plan to do everything I can to ensure that doesnt happen in America too.
KA : Good luck to you. I hope you don't turn the US into a third world country in the process.
Steve Wink
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Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 223
Originally posted by <I Killed Kenny>:

If it was a war I 'would' have probably thought, ok they are probably cheering for their country. But muslims all over the middle east were celebrating like a national achievement or some crap like that which was the most retarded, disgusting, down low human feces licking behavior I have ever seen for a terrorist attack.

It was sickening behaviour, but I thought it was mainly some Palestinians ( who didn't realise their hopes of getting a decent settlement to their problems had just gone down the pan ) and Iraqi lackeys.
Anyway, I for one welcome our illegal alien overlords...
vi kam
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 117
All right, Time out. Dont think i am trying to attack you. I am only trying to itemize your argument, which is sort of tending towards preaching
Many American's think the laws that allow you to do that are wrong.

What do you mean many. how many of them do you know. do you have any statistics. Point is what made you think many americans feel that way. Or is it just based on the recent posts by some ranchers that you came to this conclusion. I presume you are you talking about the H1B visa to Green card route.
Do you only support laws that benefit you personally?

well duh !! do you really expect some one to support a law such as this, when the person is trying his best to become a resident of US in the proper way. It would kind of rub you the wrong way when you are talking about Illegal Residency to legalization of it, which might be where this is heading.
You obviously aspire to a green card because your home country holds no allure for you.

How did you arrive to this conclusion. Assuming that is even true what has that got to do with what is being discussed (Illegal Aliens getting Drivers License).
In a sense your country has failed to meet your expectations.

Same as above. It can be argued that in many senses that is not true.

Try to leave that mindset (which is the root cause of that failure) behind you.

Preaching Alert
Americans like the gentleman quoted in the previous post are the reason why America is America.

I dont think so. When you say America is America, what do you mean. Are you saying that in the sense that it is the greatest country in the world, most powerful conuntry in the world, one of the richest countries in the world. If your argument is in that sense, then all i have to say is there is no ONE reason why US is what it is. Not the kind heartedness of people that you are trying to imply, and at the same time not the close the doors kind of attitude some people have. Point is dont make it sound too trivial, just because you think it helps your argument. America is what it is for many reasons not the one you are trying to imply.
If you want to be an American aspire to be a good one

Ah, I thought thats what he is trying to do. Besides, define good. Good to you might not be good to him or others. Binladen might be good to some, (his wife / kids maybe) that doesnt mean he is good to everybody else. Point is GOOD is very subjective and we have to wait for Map and Joe's Moral Absolutes thread to start for GOOD to have a proper defnition
Disclaimers : 1) No offence, None of the above posters are being compared to Binladen though and
2) This is not a personal Attack and yes i have read the fallacies document many times. Infact it is my Bible now a days


Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings -- They did it by killing all those who opposed them
Mani Ram
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 11, 2002
Posts: 1140
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I aspire to be an American because people in my homeland have become too tolerant of people who break the law.



And I plan to do everything I can to ensure that doesnt happen in America too.




Mani
Quaerendo Invenietis
sunitha reghu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
I aspire to be an American because people in my homeland have become too tolerant of people who break the law.
I cant take this

BTW Paul Mckenna....new name..???
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Allright.. I cant understand what is so funny about that statement. I mean it when I say people have become too tolerant of those who break the law back in India.
For those who disagree with me, will they be kind enough to explain the following to me (I dont wish to hijack this topic, so if you intend to reply specifically to my post please *PRIVATELY MESSAGE* me)
1. A lady rises to the position of Chief Minister, openly spends lavish amounts on the wedding of her "adopted son" with the State's money (its like broadcast all over TV etc.) and then when she is questioned about it in the court of law, she dares to state that she never held any wedding or she never had any son. Not only that, the people re-elect her..
2. In another state, the Chief Minister is known to be a criminal, gangster and is illiterate. He is found guilty of swiping money to the tune of Rs.5000 million from the states treasury and is sent to jail. But he remains popular among the masses and still runs the state through his proxy wife
I can bring out a laundry list of such instances.. but you get the general idea. I have little or no tolerance when such people break the law and then get away with it, and the worst part of all this is that I am helpless. Its a dysfunctional democracy back there..I decided to get away from that and I am trying.. if you think I'm wrong, good for you!
Bhau Mhatre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 199
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
(I dont wish to hijack this topic, so if you intend to reply specifically to my post please *PRIVATELY MESSAGE* me)

I had sent you a PM exactly two months back, yes July 25th, 2003. And it still shows me 'unread by the recepient'.
We have heard reports of someone who naturalized into america for a better future. Now he is again in his 'Pursuit of a Perfect State' and was recently spotted inquiring about prices in Wonderland somewhere in Australia
So where do you plan to run away next just in case the people in your new found land start going below your criteria?


-Mumbai cha Bhau
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
1. A lady rises to the position of Chief Minister, openly spends lavish amounts on the wedding of her "adopted son" with the State's money (its like broadcast all over TV etc.) and then when she is questioned about it in the court of law, she dares to state that she never held any wedding or she never had any son. Not only that, the people re-elect her..

A very lame excuse! Not that I support Jayalalitha, or any of her Imelda Marocose behaviour, but I am surprised how conveniently you ignored to state that she or her party didn't win even a single seat in the next state election, and then after another government by another party, she somehow came back to power (its about choosing the bad over the worst, but she seems to be determined to be run a model government this time!!) -- and you decided to state only what you need to support your pov, to call a successful secular democracy 'dysfunctional'!
I can think of many other good reasons to move to USA (well, DUH, hundreds of reasons), but most of them would be around the lines of how things are better there, than whats wrong in India! Well, never mind, everyone is entitled to their own opinion I suppose!

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Ashok Mash ]

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Kevin Arnold
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 30, 2003
Posts: 30
Originally posted by vi kam:
What do you mean many. how many of them do you know. do you have any statistics. Point is what made you think many americans feel that way.

I was referring to political movements like the US equivalent of the National Front.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,11375,980970,00.html
They are a minority but a sizable minority.
Originally posted by vi kam:
Or is it just based on the recent posts by some ranchers that you came to this conclusion.

I haven't seem them or else it would have triggered another bout of preaching
Anyway, a weekend is a bad time for preaching (in this country Sundays are on Fridays ). Cheers.
[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Kevin Arnold ]
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
I aspire to be an American

I wish you never come back to your homeland.
Dont worry, they wont miss you at all.


Like name, may one change his color, God, race [whatever he can]etc too.
All The Best.
I wish I could change my mother too... shit I cant change my mother
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
. I mean it when I say people have become too tolerant of those who break the law back in India.

When the whole world can tolerate Bush...
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Illegal Aliens Can Get Driver's License In Some 15 States In the U.S.?