wood burning stoves*
The moose likes Meaningless Drivel and the fly likes Festivals and economy Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Other » Meaningless Drivel
Bookmark "Festivals and economy" Watch "Festivals and economy" New topic
Author

Festivals and economy

Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
TP prompted me to start this.
I think number of festivals[May I include social ceremonies also] in any country/society reflects economic strength of that company.
Let the festivals be religious or JLT*.
Feativals maintains flow of money and let all businesses in move.
*JLT: Just Like That. Example: Thanks Giving day of US of A
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Thanksgiving Day is a religious holiday.
But the tradition of giving gifts on Christmas is not something that started in the USA in the 20th century. It goes back to at least the Middle Ages if not long before that.* If you say that Americans give more gifts because they have more money then I will say that you have a gift for uncovering the obvious.

[*] Gift giving on Christmas is based on the Bible story of the three kings who came from the east and gave gifts to the infant Jesus.
Damien Howard
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 01, 2003
Posts: 456
How is Thanksgiving day a religous holiday?
I thought it was in honour of the native americans who kept the original settlers alive until they could gain strength to slaughter all the natives, minus the few who were spared to open casinos.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
How is Thanksgiving day a religous holiday?
It's not exclusively religious, but it's certainly got a hefty religious component to it. The very term "thanksgiving" is understood by most people in the US to mean giving thanks to God. This is fairly clear in various proclamations:
1676 Thanksgiving Proclamation
George Washington's 1789 Thanksgiving Proclamation
Abraham Lincoln's 1863 Thanksgiving Proclamation
I couldn't find a good link for what exactly was said at the very first thnksgiving; quite possibly no one was taking detailed notes at the time. But they were Pilgrims, fer goshsakes - I think we can assume the mentioned God prominently while talking about what they were giving thanks for.
Of course plenty of other cultures have had harvest celebrations. Typically these would involve some degree of thanks or praying to one or more god(s) seen as important by the society in question - but also a certain amount of of generic "it's Miller time" celebration, having a big party to celebrate a good harvest. (Assuming of course that the harvest was good.)
Sure, many of the overt religious overtones of Thanksgiving are downplayed nowadays in schools and the like. But if the religious origins of the holiday aren't reasonably obvious to anyone schooled in the US, then I may have to reconsider my stance on separation of church & state somewhat. Promoting that level of ignorance in our schools isn't going to benefit anyone.
[ October 15, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
As for Ravish's original question, which has nothing to do with whether or not Thanksgiving is religious in nature: Hmmm, good question. Do countries have more festivals if they're well off, less if they're not? Hard to say. Countries that spend too much time partying may have lower productivity because of it. Or not - too much time working can also lower productivity if it impacts morale. As for counting festivals - hmmm, the first question would be which festivals to count. If one country has lots of little festivals and another has a few big festivals, how do they compare? Perhaps a reasonably simple heuristic would be to count the number of holidays per year in which government workers are not expected to work (when they would have otherwise, i.e. Sunday holidays don't count), and compare that to GNP per capita? I really don't know what sort of results a study like this might yield. Chances are good there's some data available online already. I'm just feeling too lazy to track it down now.
So - no answers here for you Ravish, just more questions.
[ October 15, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
I am taking a guess here, but I expect the most celebrated festival to be the Chinese New Year.
Unless atheists are outnumbering Christians, then it would be Christmas.
regards
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Question: Do atheists celebrate anything ?
For instance , does birthday have any meaning to an atheist ?
regards
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
For instance, does birthday have any meaning to an atheist?

Now what does birthday has to do with religion? Birthday is the most atheistic of all holidays. Everybody is born as an atheist, it's only later some become non-atheists.
Birthday has the same meaning for atheists as it has to religious people -- this is the day we were born.
--------------------
"If I used a signature this would be quoted in it" -- Pauline McNamara


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
[b]Everybody is born as an atheist, it's only later some become non-atheists.

Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
To be honest, I stole this deep thought from some atheistic site.
--------------------
"It's getting really babylonic here" -- Chris Baron
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Now what does birthday has to do with religion?

Religions usually assign a purpose with the person being born and have a ceremony to remind their family/society of that purpose to be brought up in a supportive community of co-religionists mindful of that purpose- hopefully a good purpose.(More often paid lip-service admittedly).
Christians have the confirmation, the touching or immersing with holy water.
Some religions(Muslims and Jews) have the cutting of whatchyoumaycallit of male children. (Are females of less importance here that there is no acknowledgement of their very birth? There may be a ceremony for girls that has eluded me.)

Atheists may throw a party but attach no significance other than that a person was born, it seems. A child born into an atheist family relies on the community at large( a very intangible, mobile community these days).

regards
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
But then a religious child can go to a school that does not allow the expression of any religion or culture. Status quo.
regards
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by HS Thomas:

regards

History of Birthday celebrations.
Though not very good but still OK.
Birthday's are the oldest holidays of them all, honored with celebrations since the start of civilization.

Are we assuming that civilisation starts with the invent of God ???
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Early cultures celebrated the anniversary of people's birth because they believed people were more vulnerable to evil spirits on their birthdays and being surrounded by fun would ward off bad fortune. This is the origin of the birthday party, to which people brought gifts as tokens of good fortune even thousands of years ago.

One assumes they believed in good spirits in order to be able to conceptualise evil. Perhaps they had some thoughts on creation.
How did this person get hold of such information. Which particular civilisation are they refering to ?
regards ( a habit that's turning into a hobbit)
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
How did this person get hold of such information. Which particular civilisation are they refering to ?

Thats why I said "Though not very good but still OK."
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
More rituals:
Hindu ritual at birth
Atheism,Holidays and rituals
Are some atheists going to have to make a stand and insist on working on Christmas Day ?
by helping along the transformation of Christmas away from simply a celebration by Christians of the birth of their god and towards a holiday for all people to celebrate a wide variety of things like family, community and love.

But then not all religous holidays are associated with family,community and love. Do atheists have to face the rigamarole again come Good Friday and Easter Day in a Christian country and Id in a Muslim country and ....
I really don't think it's an issue as I live surrounded by people of all religions and life goes on ; trying to remember everyone's auspicious days is a hurdle. So that's one up for the atheists.
Did I bring this subject up ? I do apologise.
It's no big deal, but I hope I have the sensitivity to deal with an issue if it occurs.
regards
[ October 16, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
But then not all religous holidays

WHen I was writing my first post in this thread, I wanted to write, "I think number of festivals[May I include social ceremonies also] in any country/society/religion/place".
But I refrained myself using word 'religion' .
But somehow it came in to the picture...
What information I had, Thanksgiving is not religious fetival. And I dont want to start debate whether it is religious or not. Let everyone be happy. Who thinks its religious, for them let it be religious.
If I am not wrong, it is declared holiday[National] in US in early 1900s.
So here I am, saying that festivals/holidays are way to move economy.
Actually 4-5 yrs back, one of my friend, who was studying economics [he was not Master, just studying] told me that for poor countries more money should be in banks and for rich countries more money should be in market so that flow of money be there always.
He told me that[dont know whether he read it or its his own views] US has 5 days week becuase people get more time to spend.
At that time it did not strike me, but later I thought how it would have been implemented in older days.
Then I myself came to the conclusion that festivals were there and each festival/holidays make people to spend money and sometimes forces people to but one particular product [B'day - Cake; Dhanmasthmi - vessel; etc.]. Let it be for religious reasons.
And whenever a single product[how small it is] is sold in market, whole market moves ahead.
And now as Jim said/asked, we can count number of holidays and BIG/small festivals or social functions which makes money move.
Sorry..
A little research showed me this page.
At page 8, it says:

Both these components (prepared food and transportation &communications) are predicted to experience rather high inflationin November as well as in December. In these months, Moslemsin Indonesia perform their fasting duties and celebrate Idul Fitri,while Christians will celebrate Christmas. To celebrate these religious festivals, many citizens will visit their hometowns, with increased spending on transportation. Not only are the prepared food and transportation & communication components expected to experience inflation in November and December. The food stuffs and clothing components are also expected to see higher inflation in relation to the two religious festivals. The two religious festivals aside, we view that inflation in 2002 is under control. The rise in prices as a result of the psychological reaction to the government's policy of hiking fuel prices without Four components of inflation are expected to increase higher in November and December,

any comments ...
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
And whenever a single product[how small it is] is sold in market, whole market moves ahead.

You mean it takes 6 dollars of debt to create one dollar of growth ? Let's celebrate away!
I'll leave the rest to the experts to comment on !
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
You mean it

I mean even if you buy 20 cents toffy, it runs business and in turn helps economy.
Or even if you buy gift wrapper to wrap your gift, it does not only supprt paper industry but also chemical, color, paper pulp, agriculture etc industry and helps economy move.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
In the west debt seems to be driving the economy. It's not enough to spend but huge debts need to be incurred. Savings get little interest but interest on debts get the debtors(finance companies) some huge returns.
Big Spenders creates a kind of fools paradise for themselves. No attempt to get back to religion there. That's why I said 6 dollars of *debt* is required to create one dollar of growth.
regards
[ October 16, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Bhau Mhatre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 199
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
For instance, does birthday have any meaning to an atheist?

Now what does birthday has to do with religion? Birthday is the most atheistic of all holidays. Everybody is born as an atheist, it's only later some become non-atheists.
Birthday has the same meaning for atheists as it has to religious people -- this is the day we were born.
--------------------
"If I used a signature this would be quoted in it" -- Pauline McNamara

So do you (all atheists) celebrate your birthday every year? If so, then which calendar do you follow to mark the begning and end of a so called 'year' and why do you follow any particular calendar?


-Mumbai cha Bhau
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
I do not think the number of festivals is based on the wealth of a nation. Obviously, how a festival is celebrated may depend on the wealth of a nation.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
So do you (all atheists) celebrate your birthday every year?
Sure, why not? Well, if you're asking all atheists, I'm sure there are some who don't. But being born seems like a reasonably good excuse for a party.
If so, then which calendar do you follow to mark the begning and end of a so called 'year' and why do you follow any particular calendar?
I use the standard calendar of the culture I find myself in. Which is used by most everyone else I'm in contact with. Thus, it's fairly convenient. What, you were expecting some big atheist protest of the evil oppressive Christian calendar? Why? The only thing about it that's specifically based in Christianity is the zero point, which was sorta supposed to be the birth of Christ, except early calendar makers got that wrong, and now we're stuck with it. But so what? We need a zero point somewhere; I see no compelling reason to try to change it now.
Religion aside, if one were setting up a calendar system from scratch, there are three main obvious things it might be based on:
  • Apparent motion of the Sun as seen from Earth (solar days).
  • Revolution of the earth around the sun (solar years)
  • Orbit of the moon about the earth, as seen from the rotating earth (lunar cycles)

  • These three things have differnet periods, which do not happen to be nice integer multiples of each other. (E.g. a year is 365.24... days; can't change that.) Any calendar the attempts to incorporate more than one of these elements will have some complexities because of this. The western/Christian calendar is a solar calendar, which interrelates (1) and (2) while ignoring (3). Leap days (and occasionally leap seconds) are used to accommodate the non-integer ralationship of years to days. The Muslim calendar is lunar, relating (3) to both (1) and (2). I don't know much about exactly how this works. But my point is, if you want to have a calendar at all, you naturally would base it off either the sun or the moon, and once you do that, you have some implementation details to work out which are dictated by astronomical realities. But there's little that is inherently religious in these calendar systems; a redesigned atheist calendar would end up looking pretty similar, and be a huge waste of time for everyone involved, and we could only use it when communicating with other atheists anyway.
    Actually, the one part of the western calendar which does deserve to be redefined is the whole "BC" business - not because of the "C" but because it skips 0. See previous minirant on this topic in the last post on page 1 here.

    [ October 16, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
    Bhau Mhatre
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 11, 2003
    Posts: 199
    Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
    Sure, why not? Well, if you're asking all atheists, I'm sure there are some who don't. But being born seems like a reasonably good excuse for a party.
    What, you were expecting some big atheist protest of the evil oppressive Christian calendar?

    No. I had read your views about the calendar stuff long time back on that page.
    I was trying to find if there is always a relation between "events" and the "emotions" they bring and how many of those relations have religious connotations associated with them directly or indirectly. Wanted to know how far atheist may actually think (or take time and effort to think) when separating their actions from any religion. I mean it is not so easy to be aetheist. I think it takes some conscious efforts to actually think and separate everyday activities from religious bindings, doesn't it? Celebrating birthday was just an example, I guess I started with a wrong example.
    Jim Yingst
    Wanderer
    Sheriff

    Joined: Jan 30, 2000
    Posts: 18671
    I was trying to find if there is always a relation between "events" and the "emotions" they bring and how many of those relations have religious connotations associated with them directly or indirectly.
    Hmmm. Personally, long before I decided I was an atheist I felt that attaching importance to a spcific date was mostly an arbitrary choice that could as well have been random as far asI was concerned. E.g. Christmas - would it really matter much if everyone had settled on some other day, say mid-August, to celebrate it? Not much, IMO, though many traditions would have ended up different. But as far as the original intent of the holiday - it matter what day of the year Jesus was "really" born, or whether people celebrate the "real" birthday or some other randomly-chosen day. What patters is that they periodically commomorate teh occasion, and it's nice when everyone else in the faith is commemmorating at the same time, so you just pick a date based on whatever criteria seem expediant at the time, and stick with it. Similarly for birthdays - does it really matter exactly what date you're born on? Well, maybe for certain legal reasons (e.g. turning 18 or 21), but in general, no. It's just nice to have a party for someone now and then, and once a year on or around their birthday is a reasonable way to achieve that.
    So for me, the exact anniverary of an event was never important, but whatever ou're commenorating is. That didn't really change when I decided on atheism, except that some of the things I used to commemorate had lost their importance to me.
    Wanted to know how far atheist may actually think (or take time and effort to think) when separating their actions from any religion. I mean it is not so easy to be aetheist. I think it takes some conscious efforts to actually think and separate everyday activities from religious bindings, doesn't it?
    I suppose it could, for those who are really determined to completely avoid anything that has any association with any religion whatsoever. But I think most of us are a bit more pragmatic than that. If you have to think carefully about whether a given act is intrinsically religious or not, it's probably not worth worrying about.
    As an example, when someone sneezes, it's common custom in the US to say something, and people may think you're a bit rude if you don't. "Bless you" is the standard. Well, if I say "Bless you" I feel like a hypocrite, since it's rather obviously religious in nature. But I don't want do seem rude. There's another response, "Gesundheit", which is German for "health". (It's not really common in the US, but it's sufficiently well-known that can get away with using it.) Now, if you do look carefully into the history of how this phrase was used, it turns out that here too, it's really rooted in superstition and religion. Well, so what? The goal is to say something that makes the other person feel beeter and makes me not seem rude, but which doesn't make me feel like a hypocrite. "Gesundheit" at least obscures the religious connections, even if they're still there. There's not really any compelling reason to worry about it beyone that - I've made a reasonable effort to be both polite and non-hypocritical. And it's not like I'm going to burn in hell for accidentally doing something which has some connection to a religion. Religion is all around; can't avoid it. I just try to minimize its effect on me.
    Mapraputa Is
    Leverager of our synergies
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 26, 2000
    Posts: 10065
    Jim: Personally, long before I decided I was an atheist I felt that attaching importance to a spcific date was mostly an arbitrary choice that could as well have been random as far asI was concerned. E.g. Christmas - would it really matter much if everyone had settled on some other day, say mid-August, to celebrate it?
    In fact, Russian Orthodox Church celebrates Christmas January 7th.
    the reason is that the Russian Orthodox Church still lives according to the old Julian Calendar, which is currently 13 days behind the Gregorian Calendar, which is adopted by most countries in the world (and by the Russian government).
    WHY DO RUSSIANS CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS ON JANUARY 7TH?

    Practically, we used to celebrate New Year (December 31-January 1) with many attributes of Christmas: Christmas trees, gifts etc.) but it did not have anything to do with religion. Form was borrowed, but not content.
    Even today
    Although Christmas is widely celebrated in Russia and leaders of the nation attend televised church services, a substantial part of the nation still treats Christmas as just another holiday, somewhat inferior to the New Year Eve/Day.
    WHY DO RUSSIANS CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS ON JANUARY 7TH?
    Jason Menard
    Sheriff

    Joined: Nov 09, 2000
    Posts: 6450
    Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
    In fact, Russian Orthodox Church celebrates Christmas January 7th.

    I was in Sarajevo, near Srpska Sarajevo (the Serbian part of Sarajevo) on Orthodox Christmas, January 7th, 1998. It seems the locals choose to celebrate the birth of the King of Peace with automatic weapons fire. These tidings of comfort and joy were problematic enough, but became even more so because in some instances they would be so moved by the holy spirit that in their merriment they reached out to us in friendship and harmony by directing their celebrations towards our base. I'm fairly certain that the rum-pa-pum-pum sound was not in fact the Little Drummer Boy.
    I hope the celebrations in Russia aren't quite so exuberant.
    [ October 16, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
    Mapraputa Is
    Leverager of our synergies
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 26, 2000
    Posts: 10065
    I hope the celebrations in Russia aren't quite so exuberant.
    It used to be peaceful, until economical freedom manifested itself in form of Chinese fireworks. Now it's 4th of July every holyday, <sarcasm>plus pay day and your cat's birthday. </sarcasm>
    --------------------
    "This isn't a signature, I just typed in something under a dotted line." -- Pauline McNamara
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
    Obviously, how a festival is celebrated may depend on the wealth of a nation.

    hmm... Good point and it seems that my point is being conveyed.
    But at the same time number also become significant because you cant have 1 or 2 major festivals only with big celeberation.
    What about rest of the year ??
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:
    So do you (all atheists) celebrate your birthday every year?

    Hi Bhau
    Kasa Aahe Tumi? (How are you ?) Me Changla Aahe (I am fine)
    I might have soon a trip to Mumbai/Pune (dont know when ).
    AW lets come to the point, Which calendar do you follow to celeberate your b'day ??
    Does it make you Christian ?
    I know a person from Tamil, who is muslim but they follow all local hindu's superstitions like when he should get his wife to Bangalore depends on Hindu calendar .
    He is still Muslim and does not eat Jhatka meat.
    So what calendar I follow to celeberate my b'day does not matter at all. BTW by Hindu calendar my B'day was on 14'th Oct this year. But I will celeberate my B'day as per Gregorian calendar
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by HS Thomas:
    In the west debt seems to be driving the economy. ..Savings get little interest but interest on debts get the debtors(finance companies) some huge returns.

    I think this is basics of finance and its all over world.
    You get less interest in bank than you have to pay on the loan.
    From where Credit Card funda comes ??
    That's why I said 6 dollars of *debt* is required to create one dollar of growth.
    Giving loans is also a way to chanalise money.
    No one give you debt if you *cant* create 1$ for them[debators] in pre defined time frame.
    Now in India this time Home loans are at boom.
    Anonymous
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 22, 2008
    Posts: 18944
    Originally posted by R K Singh:

    But I will celeberate my B'day as per Gregorian calendar

    java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.1/docs/api/ java/util/GregorianCalendar.html
    HS Thomas
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 15, 2002
    Posts: 3404
    So what calendar I follow to celeberate my b'day does not matter at all. BTW by Hindu calendar my B'day was on 14'th Oct this year. But I will celeberate my B'day as per Gregorian calendar

    Please explain some more. In Gregorian calendar , your birthday is not 14th October, I take it.
    regards
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by HS Thomas:
    Please explain some more.

    What do you want me to explain ??
    HS Thomas
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 15, 2002
    Posts: 3404
    WHEN exactly is your Birthday ? 14th Oct this year but not next year ?
    regards
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by HS Thomas:
    WHEN exactly is your Birthday ? 14th Oct this year but not next year ?

    As per Hindu Calendar, it was on Karwa Chauth.
    And as per Hindu Calendar it will again be on Karwa Chauth next year also. [For Greogorian date, you have to wait till some Pandit publish the Calendar(Panchang)]
    HS Thomas
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 15, 2002
    Posts: 3404
    How many days between this Karwa Chauth and the next ?
    regards
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by HS Thomas:
    How many days between this Karwa Chauth and the next ?
    regards

    Not necessarily 365 days.
    I am not Pandit so cant tell you the exact date of next Karwa Chouth.
    HS Thomas
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 15, 2002
    Posts: 3404
    Thanks. How does one measure age in the Hindu Calendar. I expect it's roughly the same as age in the Gregorian Calendar.
    regards
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by HS Thomas:
    I expect it's roughly the same as age in the Gregorian Calendar.

    Yes, roughly same (+/- 6-8 months for 100yrs[a wild guess])
     
    wood burning stoves
     
    subject: Festivals and economy