wood burning stoves 2.0*
The moose likes Meaningless Drivel and the fly likes Bible Study Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Android Security Essentials Live Lessons this week in the Android forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Other » Meaningless Drivel
Bookmark "Bible Study" Watch "Bible Study" New topic
Author

Bible Study

John Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
You know the story: God sends Moses to the Egyptian pharaoh to persuade him to let the Jews go, but pharaoh is a bad guy, and he repeatedly refuses to cooperate, so God punishes his country and his people. Kinda makes sense. Until you read the Bible carefully. It appears that God forces the pharaoh to be a bad guy.
Here is what Exodus 4:21 in American Standard Version says: "And Jehovah said unto Moses, When thou goest back into Egypt, see that thou do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in thy hand: but I will harden his heart (emphasis is mine, -- EK) and he will not let the people go". Wow. That changes the entire story, my fellow ranchers. I thought maybe there is a typo in the American Standard Version, so I checked the other versions of the Bible and they all are pretty much consistent:
Amplified Bible:
And the Lord said to Moses, When you return into Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all those miracles and wonders which I have put in your hand; but I will make him stubborn and harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Douay-Rheims Bible (Catholic):
And the Lord said to him as he was returning into Egypt: See that thou do all the wonders before Pharao, which I have put in thy hand: I shall harden his heart, and he will not let the people go.
King James Version:
And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Young's Literal Translation:
And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `In thy going to turn back to Egypt, see -- all the wonders which I have put in thy hand -- that thou hast done them before Pharaoh, and I -- I strengthen his heart, and he doth not send the people away.
So, it looks like God deliberately created Evil (hardened the pharaoh's heart), so that God could teach the pharaoh a lesson (well, 10 lessons), by committing all the despicable atrocities towards the people of Egypt. Why? I mean, why not soften the pharaoh's heart so that the Jews are freed and the people of Egypt are saved from suffering the plagues?
The answer appears to be in the Bible itself, Romans 9:17-18:
17: For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth."
18: Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
I don't know about you, my fellow Jews and Christians, but I am sort of disillusioned by this. If the best way for God to show his power is to exterminate the innocent children, what should be expected from the people who were created after the image of God?
My vote goes to Jesus Christ, -- I was sympathizing with the pharisees to find the evidence of wrong doing on the part of the son of God, but I couldn't find any (well, except that he was a communist). All that Jesus did was teach, cure, inspire, and forgive.
Something doesn't fit here. Why such a dramatic reversal from the "breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be rendered unto him" (Leviticus 24:20) to "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also" (Matthew 5:38)?
I'd say there is definitely a difference of opinion between the father and the son, -- a classic Freudian problem, you know. Any alternative explanations?
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

There is a difference between the old and new testimate in that regard. Or rather, before Jesus and after Jesus.
Throughout the old testimate there are several situations where it may not seem that God is just or merciful. Before Jesus came to die for every man's sin, everyone lived a more Catholic belief. Do good, be good, and hope you get into heaven. When God is talking about pharaoh in these passages, I believe it is not so much that God won't allow him to let the people go, but rather, God had given pharaoh ample time in his life to make the right decisions, and the time for mercy had ended.
Oddly enough, this happens again. I will need to look up the passages a bit later, but basically, after the Rapture and Jesus takes all the "Christians" to heaven and leaves all the non-decided people here on earth, there will come a time when even those left will have their hearts hardened and won't be able to accept Jesus as their Savior anymore. This happens because even though God is merciful, there comes a time when you have rejected Him so much, that is mercy has run out for you. I believe this is what happened with pharaoh.
If the best way for God to show his power is to exterminate the innocent children, what should be expected from the people who were created after the image of God
If you are speaking here about when the first born child was to die, these children probably benefited from death. Now this next part I say is defintaly up for controversy, but because of what I believe, these children did not go to hell. God allowed these slayn children into heaven because it was not their fault that their parents were denying God all this time. And these children probably didn't have an opportunity to learn about God because of who their parents were. God does not hold children responsible for their parents actions. So if you look at it that way, it's not such a bad thing.
Of course, none of us were there. So who really knows. Right?


GenRocket - Experts at Building Test Data
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Eugene - first time reading from the Old Testament, I take it?


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
We are all agreed that this is an imperfect world.
While no expert,I've dusted my Bible off and had a look again and this is what most Christians believe. Try looking at the verse as an example of the Wonders of God.
Moses said, in Deuteronomy 6:22, "The LORD showed signs and wonders, great and grievous, against Egypt and against Pharaoh and all his household, before our eyes."
Christians believe we shall see with our own eyes such signs and wonders again and that there is no other God like Him. We shall see such "wonders" in the heavens,"wonders" of a gigantic earthquake that will sink continents and level most every structure ever built by man before Christ returns.
Jesus said that in the Last Days, in Matthew 24:29-30, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Moses asks, in Exodus 15:11, "Who is like thee, O LORD, among the gods? Who is like thee, majestic in holiness, terrible in glorious deeds, doing wonders?"

We can assume 100% that Moses was there! How do we know of what attrocities was done to Moses' people in Egypt? God gave the Egyptians /Pharaoh some time to change their ways but the warnings were ignored and God had to act in the way He saw fit. I wish we knew what happened in Egypt after Moses left from a Biblical perspective.
Again , Christians believe that there no one like our God! He alone is King of kings and Lord of Lords. All knees shall bow before Him willingly, or in defeat, and declare the Jesus is alone Lord of all!
We're headed for the final chapter of the book when God will reveal Himself from heaven and we will be able to say like they did in Deuteronomy 29:3, "The great trials which your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders," were wrought in God.
Again, Christians believe:
Revelation 22: 20 "He who testifies to these things says, 'Surely I am coming soon.'"

And this time there will be no one left on "earth" to ask "Why?". No Muslim,Hindu,Jew,Zorastrian,Christian, etc.What a price to pay for peace and harmony! Had the Pharaoh repented at any point would that have made a difference then and now.
All verses in the Bible lead to this final ending and there will be a new beginning. It's very difficult to make sense of the 'details' without keeping this 'objective' in mind.
More verses on the wonders of God.
Joshua 3:5, Psalms 77:14; Daniel 4:3, Joel 2:30, Acts 6:8
regards
PS Thanks for bringing up the question. I think I had forgotten this major point.
[ October 16, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
The case against God looks real bad :
skeptics annotated bible

regards
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
I guess what we should do, is to randomly choose 12 people who never heard about the case, give them all the quotes and ask for their verdict...
GB: If you are speaking here about when the first born child was to die, these children probably benefited from death.
This is probably my main problem with believer's morale. You see, it's hard to imagine any morale relativist advocating death of the first (or n-th in general case) born child. Eugene? Jim? While believers do not see anything particularly wrong with it, if God did it. Yet these are we, who allegedly do not have any solid ground to base our morale on and no morale guiding line whatsoever.
I am starting to think that the Soviet people who denied a cleaning job in kinder garden for a Baptist woman definitely had serious reasons to. What if she decided to help poor babies to get to heavens until it's too late?
[ October 16, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
A case for: (This is deep)
On Grace and Free Will
This short excerpt suggests (as GB did) once God's graciousness is exhausted there is no free will. So yes, God hardened the Pharaoh's heart and the Pharaoh had no free will. For the first five plagues the Pharaoh acted on his own free will , on the sixth it was too late for the Pharaoh to change his mind, and his heart was hardened.
It also suggests that the plagues were a gracious gift. In the light of God's damnation they can be viewed as gracious.
Hope it computes that most of us are on a hell-bent course.
Hardened Hearts - More Explanations
Hardening as Punishment
According to yet another view, God hardens the agent's heart as a means of punishing him. Specifically, the hardened agent is thereby deprived of three great goods: (a) free will, along with (b) the potential to act rightly, and (c) the chance to repent. He is not punished further for the hardened act.

Removing free will is a perfectly just punishment for a person so depraved, an appropriate tit‑for‑tat. The agent hardened his own heart in the earlier plagues, contrary to God's will; so now his heart becomes hardened by God, contrary to his own will. Likewise, he chose to do evil, so now his punishment (or part of it) is�that he does evil!

Hardening is not only a case of the punishment fitting the crime--rather, hardening is "a punishment that is the very sin that it punishes" (Maimonides presents a version of the punishments solution in Eight Chapters, chapter 8). Notice that insofar as it recognizes the value of free will by considering free will deprivation as an evil, the "punishment" solution is compatible with, and even partially dovetails with, high assessments of free will such as those found in free will theodicies [explanations for suffering that stress human responsibility].

Unfortunately, the punishment solution, as stated thus far, is incomplete, for it falters as regards the repentance deprivation problem.

The solution would claim that the hardened agent is punished precisely by losing the opportunity for repentance. But even granted the heinous character of figures like Pharaoh, some thinkers have been troubled by the implication that God actively shuts the gates of repentance to some people. (See, for example, Arama, Akedat Yitzchak, Exodus, chapter 36; cf. Maimonides, Eight Chapters, Chapter 8, and Mishneh Torah, Laws of Repentance Chapter 6.)

Dr. David Shatz is Professor of Philosophy at Yeshiva University.

hardening is "a punishment that is the very sin that it punishes" (Maimonides presents a version of the punishments solution in Eight Chapters, chapter 8).
Which suggests that the Pharaoh hardened his heart to the plight of Moses' people and in turn, God hardened the Pharaoh's heart to the plight of the plagued Egyptian people.
How could hardening be applied to a dictator in a modern world if you were to be Judge ?
By hardening our hearts to the plights of others are we inviting further plagues on our heads ? Of course , you'd have to believe in God to answer this one.
Yours "eternally" grateful (possibly)
regards
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Timothy Chen Allen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 16, 2003
Posts: 161
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
If you are speaking here about when the first born child was to die, these children probably benefited from death. Now this next part I say is defintaly up for controversy, but because of what I believe, these children did not go to hell.

Maybe, but even I am more compassionate than a god that would do this. And I believe in God, and believe God has worked several miracles in my life. My first born son is named Daniel. He is a beautiful child who in his two years of life has never committed a "sin" that I know of.
Let's say that a new religion springs up in Gerona, which is about a half-hour's drive from where I live in Barcelona. The followers of the new religion come to kill all of the first-borns in Barcelona to show us the glory of god.
No matter how many times one of these followers tells me that Daniel will enter right into the kingdom of heaven, I will never believe that it is a good thing. If a follower killed Daniel to show me his god's glory, that would not make me think God was glorious: I would think that the man who killed Daniel was a horrible person. I would live out the rest of my days in hell. I would never, never think that the god espoused by the new religion was a good, kind, gentle god. I would think that the followers were murderers who had used the religion as an excuse to murder my son. I would certainly never want to join that religion, nor would I recommend it to any of my neighbors-- after the new religion guys came and killed Joan, the first born son of my neighbor Rosa, I doubt that she would think I were a good person for suggesting such a scheme. She most likely would demonstrate quite loudly and violently that she did not agree with the new religion's followers.
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: Tim Allen ]

Timothy Chen Allen
Learn Spanish in Washington, DC
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
In Egypt, the first-born was actively expected to pass the Egyptian philosophy to the next in line. The Egyptian philosophy was seen as evil to the eyes of God. A huge assumption is made that it was mainly babies who were killed. I've forgotten how many seven year spans the sinning occured.
(My comfort-zone makes me hope that the babies were spared as they had not sinned and only those who had knowingly done evil were , er, removed but I believe no first-born was spared).

Creeping Death
Slaves
Hebrews born to serve, to the pharaoh
Heed
To his every word, live in fear
Faith
Of the unknown one, the deliverer
Wait
Something must be done, four hundred years - Jeez
So let it be written
So let it be done
I'm sent here by the chosen one
So let it be written
So let it be done
To kill the first born pharaoh son
I'm creeping death
Now
Let my people go, land of goshen
Go
I will be with thee, bush of fire
Blood
Running red and strong, down the nile
Plague
Darkness three days long, hail to fire
So let it be written
So let it be done
I'm sent here by the chosen one
So let it be written
So let it be done
To kill the first born pharaoh son
I'm creeping death
Die by my hand
I creep across the land
Killing first born man
Die by my hand
I creep across the land
Killing first born man
I
Rule the midnite air the destroyer
Born
I shall soon be there, deadly mass
I
Creep the steps and floor final darkness
Blood
Lambs blood painted door, I shall pass
So let it be written
So let it be done
I'm sent here by the chosen one
So let it be written
So let it be done
To kill the first born pharaoh son
I'm creeping death

How would anyone feel about the sons of a dictator like Saddam Hussein and any son who tyrannised for him ?
And if you think the Exodus is an old forgotten issue (c 15 century BC) ,
check this
and weep while LOL
. The Cro-Magnons will file a suit claiming legitimate property rights of fire.
It's thing like these that make me sincerely hope there is a God because humanity shows such signs of extreme idiocy I think "it" ought to be permanently locked up.
Watching Disney's Prince of Egypt isn't enough to get a grip on the scale of the horror.

regards
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
All the above in no way excuses God IMHO. Post on!
regards
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
So, it looks like God deliberately created Evil...

Eugene, no need to speculate :
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
Other translations are sometimes different, but their trying to be popular and PC...
John Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
And the purpose of creating evil is to defeat it with good? Is God fighting himself?
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
And the purpose of creating evil is to defeat it with good? Is God fighting himself?

free will.
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

Originally posted by Tim Allen:

Maybe, but even I am more compassionate than a god that would do this. And I believe in God, and believe God has worked several miracles in my life. My first born son is named Daniel. He is a beautiful child who in his two years of life has never committed a "sin" that I know of.
Let's say that a new religion springs up in Gerona, which is about a half-hour's drive from where I live in Barcelona. The followers of the new religion come to kill all of the first-borns in Barcelona to show us the glory of god.
No matter how many times one of these followers tells me that Daniel will enter right into the kingdom of heaven, I will never believe that it is a good thing. If a follower killed Daniel to show me his god's glory, that would not make me think God was glorious: I would think that the man who killed Daniel was a horrible person. I would live out the rest of my days in hell. I would never, never think that the god espoused by the new religion was a good, kind, gentle god. I would think that the followers were murderers who had used the religion as an excuse to murder my son. I would certainly never want to join that religion, nor would I recommend it to any of my neighbors-- after the new religion guys came and killed Joan, the first born son of my neighbor Rosa, I doubt that she would think I were a good person for suggesting such a scheme. She most likely would demonstrate quite loudly and violently that she did not agree with the new religion's followers.
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: Tim Allen ]

So the comparison here is if you were pharoh believing in your god(s) and your "Christian" neighbor came over to slay your first born son you would not be happy about it nor would you think Daniel was better off. I agree. I would not think so either. But here is the problem with that scenerio...
1. It wasn't Pharohs neighbor, nor was it even a man. It was an Angel.
2. Pharoh and his people weren't supposed to be happy about it. They weren't meant to understand that their children would go to heaven. They didn't believe in heaven.
God tried to show his existance through Moses and Pharoh and his people chose to believe Moses was a magician and not an instrument of God. Therefor, they suffered the plagues. And as HS Thomas mentioned, in the light of God's damnation they can be viewed as gracious. This I agree with. God could have just damned every last Egyptson to hell. But he didn't. Even after all was said and done, with the exception of those that died while chasing moses through the desert, they all still had the rest of their lives to change and live for God's purpose. So although God punished them, His mercy still shown through by giving them another chance.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The King James version is not known for being an accurate translation. The word "evil" does not have the same meaning to us as it did in the time of King James. A better translation would be "I make well-being and create calamity". God does not create evil but he does bring down upon people (such as the citizens of Soddom) terrible calamities.
By the way, there is a difference between God killing someone and your neighbor killing someone. God created all life and He can take it away.


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

The King James version is not known for being an accurate translation.

Maybe in 50 years we'll have another, better , more accurate translation with another completely different meaning....
The King James Version is not the only translation to use the word "evil" and if the different translations today can't even agree on when to use that word, then any attempted theology based on the Bible is hopless.
Really, if we can't even translate the word "evil" how can we attempt to build any coherent theology? By the way, the same Hebrew word for evil is used throughout the old testament, so the KJV is giving the most literal translation (not meaning literalness is always best however).

The word "evil" does not have the same meaning to us as it did in the time of King James.

Again, the same Hebrew word for evil is used throughout the old testment, so you carry a very heavy burden of proof to say in one instance we will use the English word "evil" to support one pet theological views, and in another instance we will translate it to something else to support other theological views.

A better translation would be "I make well-being and create calamity". God does not create evil but he does bring down upon people (such as the citizens of Soddom) terrible calamities.

Why is that the better translation, because it supports what you were taught in Sunday school? I believe God is the ultimate Creator and Source of everthing in the universe, therefore It did create Evil.

Could you also give another alternate translation of the other verse I posted?
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
As long as you think of "evil" in terms of awful things happening then the translation is fine.
Why is that the better translation, because it supports what you were taught in Sunday school?
Since you chosen to be rude and make this personal, you can argue with yourself from this point on.
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Why is that the better translation, because it supports what you were taught in Sunday school?
Since you chosen to be rude and make this personal, you can argue with yourself from this point on.
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

Oh, come on, that was not so rude. Anyway, I'll apologize so we can continue.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
St. Augustine's opinion of how evil comes into the world reflects general Christian philosophy. The Catholic Encyclopedia sums it up fairly well:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm
John Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
GB: God does not hold children responsible for their parents actions.
God strongly disagrees:
"... for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation..." (Deuteronomy 5:9, New International Version)
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
GB: God does not hold children responsible for their parents actions.
God strongly disagrees:
"... for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation..." (Deuteronomy 5:9, New International Version)

I believe that is a bit in different context than what I was speaking of before. I was saying if your Father murdered your neighbor, you are not held responsible in God's eyes for his actions. I believe what God is saying there is basically everyone will be held responsible for the sins of their fathers in the sense that Adam and Eve sinned first, so we no longer live in a perfect world. And because of our fathers sins and their fathers sins, we are bound for hell unless we obey God and accept Christ (Of course the accepting Christ as your savior doesn't play out until after Jesus dies on the cross, so in Deuteronomy is was mostly giving sacrifices and living a God like existance )
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
As long as you think of "evil" in terms of awful things happening then the translation is fine.

Yeh, that's how I think of evil, as "awful" or bad "things happening". But its hard to say God is Good in any meaningfull sense if he is the one causing all the Bad things to happen.
If God causes all the "awful things" doesn't that violate the union agreement that details the Devil's job responsibilities?

herb : Why is that the better translation, because it supports what you were taught in Sunday school?
Thomas :Since you chosen to be rude and make this personal, you can argue with yourself from this point on.
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

My point was not to be rude, but to point out that your interpretations of Hebrew text may be influenced by your pre-existing theological views.
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
St. Augustine's opinion of how evil comes into the world reflects general Christian philosophy. The Catholic Encyclopedia sums it up fairly well:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm

But why are we using Christians, all of whom don't agree on this issue as your article points out, to justify a particular way interpretating an ancient Jewish/Hebrew text? Wouldn't the Jews themselves be better authorities on their own sacred text?
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

Originally posted by herb slocomb:

But why are we using Christians, all of whom don't agree on this issue as your article points out, to justify a particular way interpretating an ancient Jewish/Hebrew text? Wouldn't the Jews themselves be better authorities on their own sacred text?

Would I be a better authority on sacred english text? Man, you wouldn't want me to be the authority. Everything would be wrong.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
Wouldn't the Jews themselves be better authorities on their own sacred text?
Do you know any rabiis that program in Java?
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Herb: Yeh, that's how I think of evil, as "awful" or bad "things happening". But its hard to say God is Good in any meaningfull sense if he is the one causing all the Bad things to happen.
But God does them only to your own benefit. If you do not believe in it, then well, you will go to Hell.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
But God does them only to your own benefit. If you do not believe in it, then well, you will go to Hell.

Let's say we live a universe where God really doesn't punish anyone. God is sort of like Santa Claus who promises to put coal in the stockings of bad children but on Chritmas day everyone gets presents. What would that say about free will? If God ignores my wishes and sends me to heaven no matter what, doesn't that presume that my actions are irrlevant and that I really don't have free will? Doesn't free will require that the choices I make lead to results that I choose?
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Let's say we live a universe where God really doesn't punish anyone. What would that say about free will?
That it exists?
If God ignores my wishes and sends me to heaven
Wait, you just said that in this Universe God doesn't punish anyone, so why would He reward anyone? How about just humbly dying for human beings?
no matter what, doesn't that presume that my actions are irrlevant and that I really don't have free will?
Why so? Your actions were highly relevant to your life.
Doesn't free will require that the choices I make lead to results that I choose?
Didn't they?
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Let's say we live a universe where God really doesn't punish anyone.
That would be great! Instead we have a Universe where God either punish some people or not, and how can you know when he does that and when not? For example, WTC disaster was God's punishment or not? How do you know?
I am just curious.
Joel McNary
Bartender

Joined: Aug 20, 2001
Posts: 1817

Isaiah 45:7

I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe --
I the LORD do all these things.

From the Jewish Publication Society's Tanakh, published in 1985. This is a very well-respected translation, having been compiled after nearly three decads of research.
The main problem with the King James Version of the bible was that it was published in 1610 -- Shakespearean times. The Pre-J.S. Bach era. A long time ago. During the past 400 years, of course the meaning of words has changed. This is why new translations of the Bible keep coming out. True, some translate it to promote a certain agendum, but mostly it is to keep up with the changing language. Sometimes new translations come about as a result of a change in understanding about how the ancient Israelites/Greeks/Romans lived and used language themselves. For example:
"And suddenly, there was with the angel, a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God, and saying: 'Glory to God in the highest. And on earth peace, good will toward men.'" -- Luke 2:13-14 (KJV)
is translated in the NRSV:
"And suddenly, there was with the angel, a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God, and saying: 'Glory to God in the highest heaven. And on earth peace among those whom he favors.'" -- Luke 2:13-14 (NRSV)
The most profound difference here is in the last line. Reading the Greek you find it a little bit ambigous (although a logical reading does tend favour the latter version, which can also be translated "among men of goodwill.") A one-letter discrepency in later Greek manuscripts results in the KJV translation; however, we can now quite definitivly say that there is not peace and good will to men; rather the peace is distributed only to those of good will ("those whom he favors"). This is evidenced by the fact that the earliest Greek manuscripts read such and also by the knowledge that the turn of phrase "those whom he favors" is actually fairly common in Jewish texts of the time. The person who wrote Luke (I know someone whose theory is the Josepheus was the author of Luke) would have been familiar with Jewish turns of phrase, but was trying to reach a Greek audience, so right off the bat we have translation issues.
Knowing this, I tend not to rely to heavily on any one translation of the Bible. For me, the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) is the base for comparison, but that is personal preference. I generally do not rely on just that one translation. On my shelves I have the NRSV, the Tanakh (the Jewish Scriptures, essentially the Old Testament), the Jewish New Testament (published by Messianiac Jews - do not confuse them with Jews for Jesus!!), the KJV, the New King James Version (NJKV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New International Version (NIV), the New International Readers Version (NIrV), the Good News Bible, and the New American Standard Bible (NASB). Since I am not fluent in Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic ("not fluent" doesn't even begin to cover it...), I must rely on other people to do my translating for me. But I am not content just to let one person/group do that translating; when presented with a particular passage I will typically look it up in most, if not all, of the versions that I have. If I encounter some major change in meaning, I will do some research on my own to find out what version seems to be the most accurate.
So, when debating various passages from the Bible, be aware of all theissues involved. If you want to get into a theological debate, that's one thing -- something I tend to stay out of (note that I am not actually dicussing the whole "Was God wrong/should God be evaluated by human standards" debate). I'm just trying to provide some information on why someone might prefer one version over another, other than "it was the version that I grew up with."

....Boy, I tend to write essays when responding....

BTW, I applaude Eugene for providing more than one translation to start this discussion....
[ October 18, 2003: Message edited by: Joel McNary ]

Piscis Babelis est parvus, flavus, et hiridicus, et est probabiliter insolitissima raritas in toto mundo.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Doesn't free will require that the choices I make lead to results that I choose?
Didn't they?

No, because whatever I did I went to heaven. How is that free will? By my actions I told God I did not want to follow him and yet he rewards me anyway. "I don't want to go to heaven!" "Too bad, you are going there anyway."
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
That would be great! Instead we have a Universe where God either punish some people or not, and how can you know when he does that and when not? For example, WTC disaster was God's punishment or not? How do you know?
I am just curious.
I don't believe that God issues punishments on people while they are alive. I believe that people issue punishments on each other through their own evil.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
No, because whatever I did I went to heaven. How is that free will? By my actions I told God I did not want to follow him and yet he rewards me anyway. "I don't want to go to heaven!" "Too bad, you are going there anyway."


I would think you'd have to actively believe in God to end up in heaven.
I don't think people would be chosen from passive or non-believers.
That does not compute!And no where in the Bible does is this written.
What is suggested in the Bible is that while the degree of belief is crucial the length of time "believing" is irrelevant.
A believer who has spent his whole life serving God and one who wholly "believes" at the time of death are the same in the eyes of God.
This is why the last rites are given to the dying on their death-beds.
There are passages in the Bible where there is jealousy amongst believers because God "favours" all who believe in Him, regardless of rank or time spent in His service.
These are also some of the "wonders" of God.
regards
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
HS Thomas!
I think, we've spent enough nights together in this place, for me to ask what's your real name is. "HS" just doesn't look like anything authentic...
--------------------
"I think it's telling me in Russian that there are no matches for Mapraputa in English." -- HS Thomas
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
A name is supposed to reveal identity. Fortunately or unfortunately I cannot change my true name as I was stuck with it by my parents on confirmation to the service of God.That's another thing that's not sufficient to identify me though it was meant to be so. Oh ! The short-sightedness of parents. I am afraid HS is as about as real as it gets!
I've heard of people on re-confirming who changed their names. That seems appropriate. What purpose does revealing a name now serve other than deviating from some other unknown destiny Of course, if I had a beautiful name like Margarita , I'd certainly want to tell the world about it.

regards
--sig
"I am not mad. I've just read different books" Anonymous
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
I just assume that HST was named after the Hubble Space Telescope.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
A name is supposed to reveal identity.
If you have only one identity.
I've heard of people on re-confirming who changed their names.
I've read that in Japan they assumed different names on each step or their spiritual development. Makes sense to me. I eagerly assumed a new name "Map" in this country, because I changed a lot, what sense does it make to call me by my old name?
Of course, if I had a beautiful name like Margarita , I'd certainly want
to tell the world about it.


Yet you did not tell what your Name is. How do your closest friends call you? How do you call yourself? How do you want to be addressed: "HS"? "Thomas"? Something else?
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
assumed a new name "Map"

That's interesting! Choosing a name is like selecting a point of reference.
Sometimes that point of reference is chosen by the addresser rather than the addressee. Hubble Space Telescope has an outer-terrestrial reference.
<< Edited out hurriedly on review. Scandalous stuff. Trust me, HS is much safer. My friends and perfect strangers will be comfortable with 'HS' if that's any help. >>

But we digress. I think there is a great debate in Biblical definitions of "evil", "God's favours" and "grace", particulary God's favours.

regards
P.S. Talking of Hubble Space Telescopes , I was nearly named after Valentina Tereshkova by a derivative on another flight of fancy.
regards
[ October 18, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

"God is omnipotent", seems to be the most obvious meaning of this verse.
Was the WTC disaster used as a punishment or was God gracious in the sense that it could have been much, much worse?
I heard a testimony second-hand of someone who was in the WTC at the very moment ( and I believe quite high in one of the towers ) and while they were trying to make their way out, groups were forming to pray together that even if they were not rescued, others outside would be.
(they stopped to pray while the buildings were beginning to collapse :roll: ).
You see, they had no way of knowing what was going on outside. Some in those prayer groups perished while others survived. The impression I got was that the evacuees and evacuation were mostly orderly.

regards
[ October 18, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
I think possible we are looking way too deeply into this verse. The simple fact of the matter is God creating everything. So naturally He takes credit for evil. He kind of has to.
 
wood burning stoves
 
subject: Bible Study
 
Similar Threads
Do you believe in God
Why They miss the Cold War!
The Effect of 10 Commandments
He said He would return - Jesus Christ - Today?
The Meaning Of Justice