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Vatican and genetically modified organisms

Richard Hawkes
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http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,61178,00.html/wn_ascii
Well I for one can hardly wait for the Vatican to pronounce its position on Genetically Modified Organisms (please note the sarcasm btw).
I know they've just been talking about it and it could go either way, but it seems bizarre to me that the Vatican could consider condoning a technology that is so intrusive to the so-called "fabric of life" and yet reject those little bits of rubber that go on your willy during sex (you know, those things that help reduce pregnancies and diseases amongst the filthy fornicating masses).
Its a funny old world. Pronouncements from the Vatican tend to make me laugh and cringe in equal measure, like your dad dancing at the school disco.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
Pronouncements from the Vatican tend to make me laugh and cringe in equal measure, like your dad dancing at the school disco.

That's a common reaction from people who have never actually taken the trouble to read or understand them.


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Richard Hawkes
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
That's a common reaction from people who have never actually taken the trouble to read or understand them.
And quite a common reaction from those that do
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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HUMANAE VITAE:

Upright men can even better convince themselves of the solid grounds on which the teaching of the Church in this field is based, if they care to reflect upon the consequences of methods of artificial birth control. Let them consider, first of all, how wide and easy a road would thus be opened up towards conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality. Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men-especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point-have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law, so that they must not be offered some easy means of eluding its observance. It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anticonceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion.
Let it be considered also that a dangerous weapon would thus be placed in the hands of those public authorities who take no heed of moral exigencies. Who could blame a government for applying to the solution of the problems of the community those means acknowledged to be licit for married couples in the solution of a family problem? Who will stop rulers from favoring, from even imposing upon their peoples, if they were to consider it necessary, the method of contraception which they judge to be most efficacious? In such a way men, wishing to avoid individual, family, or social difficulties encountered in the observance of the divine law, would reach the point of placing at the mercy of the intervention of public authorities the most personal and most reserved sector of conjugal intimacy.

Sounds prophetic to me.
HS Thomas
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Talking of dangerous weapons, has anyone heard of the genetically modified bomb ?
GM Bomb
"And, history shows, when the men who define U.S. military policy from the
shadows set their sights on something, it's worthy of our attention."
I have images of a Dilbert character firing the bomb in the direction of the mis-fits and the bomb does a U-turn getting a program instruction "Hang on, aren't you a better gene mis-fit ? ". :roll:
regards
[ November 12, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
HUMANAE VITAE:
Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men-especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point-have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law, so that they must not be offered some easy means of eluding its observance. It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anticonceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion.


Whats wrong with Burqa then ??


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Bert Bates
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Not sure when this went from genetically modified food to contraception, but I want to talk about GM food... are you kidding? This isn't about providing more food, this is about companies like Monsanto controlling the seed source of farmers world wide. This is about large corporate entities, with no legal accountability, putting short term profits ahead of sustainable solutions. It appears the Vatican will "get in bed" with anyone who can offer an alternative to contraception. yikes!
p.s. Just what is the Earth's human carrying capacity? If 6 billion isn't too many how about 10 billion, still room for more? 20 billion? Who needs room to breathe? Let's make it 50 billion.


Spot false dilemmas now, ask me how!
(If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by R K Singh:
Whats wrong with Burqa then ??
Forcing a woman to hide herself does seem a bit different than what HV is talking about.
Richard Hawkes
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The Saloon was down a long while yesterday. Who broke it?
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Sounds prophetic to me.
Its not so prophetic unless you're Cartman's mum!
Birth control has sexually liberated women (and men), which in turn has helped to promote other images of women. This has actually helped loosened the hold of certain objectifications of women, namely the wife/mother figure. Certainly women can be portrayed too often as sexual objects in the media, but I don't see that as a result of "taking the easy way out" when it comes to sex.
I don't see anyone forcing condom use either. My concern is the effective denial of a choice in parts of the world where it is most needed (or even in parts of the world where it is just a convenience).
There's no real relationship between living immorally and engaging in non-reproductive sex.
Richard Hawkes
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Originally posted by Bert Bates:
It appears the Vatican will "get in bed" with anyone who can offer an alternative to contraception. yikes!
There would seem to be some very powerful religious arguements against GMOs for them to consider, however there was criticism that the debate was heavily biased in favour of the GM side. I would have thought that the Vatican should come out against it, which actually might cause other problems considering how influential the Vatican is.
Richard Hawkes
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Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Talking of dangerous weapons, has anyone heard of the genetically modified bomb ?
I wonder if its possible to genetically target Java programmers ?
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
There's no real relationship between living immorally and engaging in non-reproductive sex.

Wouldn't that depend on how you define "living immorally"?
Richard Hawkes
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Wouldn't that depend on how you define "living immorally"?
Absolutely. However I've yet to be convinced that sex for the sake of sex is immoral, especially if you're allowed to do it responsibly (including masturbation - responsible masturbation?! Use a keyboard cover).
The influence of the Catholic church has real life consequences. I'd never deny the right to preach abstinence over contraception while helping people, but not offering alternatives (in third world missions for example) is dangerous. Limiting available options to people who should be able to decide for themselves is more immoral IMO.
Which is why the Vatican/GMO thing amuses and concerns me. If the Vatican decide its not good there may be lots of pressure to stop this "ungodly research", if its approved they'll be pressure to push it into the hands of people that may or may not want it (admittedly not the Vatican's doing, but the church is well aware of the influence it wields). Neither scenario will benefit science or humanity. You might argue all that will result are minor political and cultural inconveniences for one or both "sides", but I say some things needn't be moralised. People seeking guidance in certain spheres of life should make up their own minds.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
[qb]The influence of the Catholic church has real life consequences. I'd never deny the right to preach abstinence over contraception while helping people, but not offering alternatives (in third world missions for example) is dangerous. Limiting available options to people who should be able to decide for themselves is more immoral IMO.
No one forces anyone to live by the rules of the Catholic Church. However if everyone lived by the rules of the Church think how the world would be... no AIDS, no sexually transmitted diseases, no children born out of wedlock. I can see why Humane Vitae might piss of someone who didn't understand it.
Richard Hawkes
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
if everyone lived by the rules of the Church think how the world would be... no AIDS, no sexually transmitted diseases, no children born out of wedlock
A big if, even when everyone believed in God. Getting up early every Sunday? I'd rather go to hell!
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Forcing a woman to hide herself does seem a bit different than what HV is talking about.

Should I say :
That's a common reaction from people who have never actually taken the trouble to read or understand them.

Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men-especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point-have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law. It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the seeing women with less clothes, or showing parts of body may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion.

Actually both are non-sense, wearing burqa and saying no to condom for what so ever reason.
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
However if everyone lived by the rules of the Church think how the world would be... no AIDS, no sexually transmitted diseases, no children born out of wedlock.

then I will prefer Islam over Catholic Church ...
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by R K Singh:
Actually both are non-sense, wearing burqa and saying no to condom for what so ever reason.
No one is forced to follow Catholic teaching. Last I checked women had acid thrown in their face if they didn't wear a burqa.
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
No one is forced to follow Catholic teaching.

I am not takling about forced or not ..
I am just trying to say that dont try to undrestand religious non-sense talk.
BTW how Pagans were converted to christianity you must be knowing.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by omar khan:

...and doctors that practice abortion murdered.

I don't think that the Pope has murdered anyone. In fact, as far as I know no doctor practicing abortion has been murdered by a Catholic.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by omar khan:
AIDS is not a punishment sent from God to homosexuals and people who betray their partner and if one follows Vatican rules he or she cannot avoid AIDS.
I never said it was a punishment on anyone.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by omar khan:
For example the Pope is against death penalty while many US states allow it. How do we reconcile this fact?
The Pope is not God. Although his opinions are important and should be respected Catholics do not believe he is infallible except in a few very specific cases.
If a Catholic agreed with the Pope then it would be incumbent upon them not to sentence someone to death or to participate in an execution. But that would be true for anyone who disagreed with the death penalty even if they were an atheist, wouldn't it?
sunitha reghu
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Originally posted by omar khan:


What if Vatican laws are in contrast with US laws?
Which law should one follow: US law or Vatican laws?
For example the Pope is against death penalty while many US states allow it.
How do we reconcile this fact?
[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: omar khan ]

US laws has nothing to do with Vatican laws. Vatican laws are for catholics. Catholic church is against abortion because Church proclaims that Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. And Pope John Paul II recently confirmed this as an infallible teaching. Vatican laws are for catholics all over the world. Pope is basically the pastor of all catholic churches.
Orthodox hindus wont eat beef why? .Those who follow muslim religios teachings think that woman should wear burka.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by mazha thulli:
US laws has nothing to do with Vatican laws. Vatican laws are for catholics.
The Church does not make laws (except for within the country of Vatican City which is run by the pope).
sunitha reghu
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The Church does not make laws (except for within the country of Vatican City which is run by the pope).

I thought (Catholic) church can make laws for the catholics . Some laws church can not change and some church can change. Then what are kanaon( greek) or Canon laws.
This is what Omar posted
What if Vatican laws are in contrast with US laws?
Which law should one follow: US law or Vatican laws?
So I replied for that
HS Thomas
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The world, in general, is facing a dual problem - religious intolerance as well as a worsening health crisis.
Purity of doctrine is held to be of greater value than life or the quality of life. People have a fatalistic acceptance of needless death, be it in war, or lack of simple health measures like clean water and waste disposal. It is God's will or Allah's will or SO be it.
Even in the west, children of special abilities/mental disorders are subjected to diagnosos and brain therapy that forever alter their brain chemistry, when more energy listening and enjoying them may be more appropriate than 'fixing' them.
regards
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by omar khan:

I was thinking of a sligthtly different scenario. Suppose that a person (A) that is against death penalty -for whatever reason- comes to know that someone (B) has committed an act that would lead person (B) to death sentence. Should he denounce that person (B) to police or not?
Suppose that person (A) thinks that if he denounce (B) he will abide to the laws of the country where he lives but he will betray his beliefs and possibly be damned.
What should he do?
First, we are never responsible for the actions of another so we can't be held guilty of a sin for turning over a criminal to rightful authority.
That being said, this only applies to "rightful authority". Suppose that the crime we are talking about is being Jweish and we are talking about Nazi Germany. Then it would be immoral to turn someone over to the government.
[ November 17, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Even in the west, children of special abilities/mental disorders are subjected to diagnosos and brain therapy that forever alter their brain chemistry, when more energy listening and enjoying them may be more appropriate than 'fixing' them.
Unless you know what you are talking about, I would suggest that you not say something stupid that can hurt a parent. As the father of a child with mental disorders who is on several medications that alter his brain chemistry I would suggest that you stop getting your science news from "Astrology Illustrated".
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by omar khan:
A defintion of infallibility...
As Omar posted, the Pope's infallibility is severely limited to very specific areas of Church teaching.
In the last 200 hundred years there have been two Papal statements that have been declared infallible, both of them dealing with specific doctrines about beliefs in Mary, the Mother of God. There is some claim that the Pope's statement that women can't be priests is infallible but the Pope himself has never directly made that claim.
HS Thomas
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Sorry , I didn't know that . That wasn't meant to hurt anyone. I was referring to kids abandoned in orphanages like in Rumania and parts in Eastern Europe who had terrible physical care but the best of science. Those in the west who can afford the best doctors get the best advice and support groups they can.
I am so sorry, Thomas. I should have been more careful. It was from Newsweek. I have spent a little time in orphanages with disabled children and they can be the sweetest things you can imagine.
regards
 
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