wood burning stoves 2.0*
The moose likes Meaningless Drivel and the fly likes Jews in Germany Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Other » Meaningless Drivel
Bookmark "Jews in Germany" Watch "Jews in Germany" New topic
Author

Jews in Germany

Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
I did a little investigation into the life of Jews in Germany today to find out how they were faring and I found it pretty shocking to note that Jews are the fastest growing segment in the German population. Can this really be? In the heart of the Reich??
Particularly, I found one article to be very interesting. It is bu Susan Stern, a German Jew who has been to America on a couple of occasions and she notes the difference in attitudes between American Jews and their German counterparts.
The article can be read at this link
She notes that German Jews are outraged at the American Jews because the Americans have taken over the power seat, once held by the Germans.

�American Jews, leave us alone!�
This does not sit well with the �native� Jewish community � the establishment � in Germany. They are outraged that American Jews are �interfering� in what they consider their bailiwick. They used to be the kingpins, the ones courted and consulted � now, or so they feel, the Americans have taken over. This is not quite true: the Central Council of Jews in Germany is not ignored, its spokespeople are still listened to. Nevertheless, they feel their power base is being further eroded � as if the Russians weren�t bad enough


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Anything that Doesn't Kill You Only Makes You Stronger.
John Dunn
slicker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1108
You mentioned that she's been to the US a couple of times... (Arkansas, Alaska, Maine, New Mexico... for example)
and she has concluded:
A significant reason for the bad feeling has to do with the attitude of (mainly young) American Jews towards all Jews who choose to live in Germany. Many American Jews are vocal in their opinion that no self-respecting Jew should ever set foot in Germany, much less voluntarily live there. They � the Americans � are critical of everything about Jewry in Germany, including the way they practice their religion.
:roll:
I find that so hard to believe, Paul. I live in city with a huge Jewish concentration and I don't find them to collectively have any ONE idea on anything. I think if you were to live in NYC for a while you'd see for yourself that the Jewish community encompasses a wide spectrum. Pro-Israeli - Pro-Peace - Anti-Settlement - Anti-Bush - Pro-War. Reform - Orthodox - Ultra-Orthodox - Barely Religious.
That article was hard to read, to be honest. The first few sections were intellectual wiz-wazz and rationalization. I was like, "GET To the point, baby..." I'm sorry but I couldn't finish it.
I bet you can find many books that poke fun about the wide array of types of Jews. It's a common self-deprecating theme that you always hear in the local Jewish comics in NYC. Some of my Jewish friends will laugh at amazement when you can look around and note that their people are so vastly different, its hard to believe that are cut from the same cloth.
To be honest, I don't even think I could get that topic spoken about here in NY in the circles I travel. There is just too many good things going on to talk about these days.
p.s. I'd like to note that my intention is not be condescending, but I feel obligated in pointing out how strange that topic is... Where did you get that article?
[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: John Dunn ]

"No one appreciates the very special genius of your conversation as the dog does."
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by John Dunn:
I live in city with a huge Jewish concentration and I don't find them to collectively have any ONE idea on anything. I think if you were to live in NYC for a while you'd see for yourself that the Jewish community encompasses a wide spectrum. Pro-Israeli - Pro-Peace - Anti-Settlement - Anti-Bush - Pro-War. Reform - Orthodox - Ultra-Orthodox - Barely Religious.

The author of the said article, points this out herself. To quote her:
There is an old joke which says that wherever you have two Jews, you have three opinions. The Jews have always taken great pride in their multifold diversities, and the situation in Germany since the war has been an unnatural one, in that Jews have felt the need to present a united and harmonious front to the outside, while happily squabbling away among themselves behind the scenes


p.s. I'd like to note that my intention is not be condescending, but I feel obligated in pointing out how strange that topic is... Where did you get that article?

Thats quite allright, each person finds something different interesting. I was doing some research on Aryans, Jews etc when I chanced upon this article. I am currently reading this book where the author talks about how the Jewish population of the India was unique. The Jews of India destroyed themselves by assimilating totally into the prevalant Hindu culture and not by violence etc. So I wanted to check out how well the jews were assimilating in other parts of the world.. so far, they seem to be doing extremely well in Germany (which I find ironic!)
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
I've spoken to one American Jew who indeed was so anti-German he would on general principle not use any German product.
A professional photographer, he refused to use German built cameras and lenses (though those are the best in the world).
A lover of good cars, he refused to drive a BMW, Mercedes or Porsche.
This extended to everything German, though he had at times visited the country (but I think only to visit the concentration camps, I've not seen any work of his from anywhere else in Germany).


42
John Dunn
slicker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1108
PM: I was doing some research on Aryans,
Paul, that is why I asked. Truth be told, I wondered if it was a from a **it-stirring web-site. I didn't want to start off by that question, so I simply asked - and note, without any malice. btw, I always run into folks, (whether it be on the road or folks visiting NYC), that have very anti-Jewish remarks that sound funny to my friends and I.
JW: You hear that anti-German kind of statement from very old Jewish folks. (Usually the ones sitting on the bench feeding the pigeons.)
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by John Dunn:
...

I frankly didnt notice anything negative about that entire article. It was very informative to say the least. The article, if it can be held as trustworthy, gives a very nice insight into the mind of the Jewish community in Germany.
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Can this really be? In the heart of the Reich??

Germany is not the Reich anymore. We are democracy since 1949.
Until end-60ties there wasn't much talk about crimes against jews in greater public. Was more or less confined to intelectual circles.
Since then inside the greater context of the student revolts of the 60ties (anti-Vietnam, etc) questions to the older generation were asked.
Since the 70ties a mayor tv coverage of crimes during ns-regime started.
It remained so until today. A typical attitude of germans is to say: I have killed no jews, but lets never forget what happened in this country 33-45.
There's another attitude, which says: its enough. Mayority supports attitude 1.
Like any part of the world except Israel of course there are some anti-semits here too. But in general it is by no means an anti-semitic country.
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Jeroen Wenting: [B]"I've spoken to one American Jew who indeed was so anti-German he would on general principle not use any German product."[\B]
I've met a few people like that. (For a long time many Jews would not by Ford automobiles either, because of old man Henry Ford's financing of anti-Jewish propaganda; he was probably sore about the many Jewish labor union organizers who made trouble at his factories.)
But I don't believe there was ever an organized boycott; for example, my father bought a German-made 35mm camera (I think an Agfa -- imported as "Ansco") in 1953, even though his parents had been killed in Aschwitz only a few years earlier. For eighteen years I owned a German-made 1980 Ford Fiesta, and ten years ago spent over $1,000 for a Hecklar & Koch P7 M13.
In my opinion, there are far too many people thirsty for the blood of Jews today, to waste energy being angry at people whose grandparents wanted to kill me half-a-dozen decades ago.
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
From Susan Stern's article:
There is a belief held by many Germans that Jews in the United States are enormously influential
Probably true, in the sense that Jews write a lot of books, TV shows, and movies.

and have shaped American policy towards Germany (indeed, American policy towards the rest of the world) since the end of the war. As Schlomo Shafir points out in his book Ambiguous Relations: The American Jewish Community and Germany since 1945, this is a lot more myth than reality.
Shafir is correct. Except for Jews' concern for the safety of Israel, foreign policy is not much of a priority for Jews, and more often than not, foreign policy went against the opinions of most Jews. (For example, during the 20th century American Jews tended to lean to the Left; though only a small portion were fully communist, the vast majority were at least anti-anticommunist. The "Cold War" went on nonetheless.)

The Clinton Administration contained quite a number of people who just happened to be Jewish, but could just as well have been anything else.
Well, that's stretching it. They could have been any other kind of irreligious, well-educated, left-leaning American; but in America it is only among Jews that this type the norm. (I've read that half the money contributed to the Democratic Party comes from Jews.) Jews are perhaps the only American ethnic group whose majority continues to vote Left despite having become prosperous.

A recent German study indicates that 33 percent of all Germans consider that Jews have too much power in the world � and these powerful Jews are Americans.
They believe this even though 90% of Jews voted for Gore (who did _not_ become President), and against Bush (who _did_ become president)? Even though both the Senate and the House of Representatives are now controlled by Republicans, despite most Jews' (not mine) continued loyalty to the Democratic Party?

American Jewry is seen as a cohesive power structure with Jewish (as opposed to American) interests at heart.
The only two times Jews persued Jewish interests at the expense of American interests were (1) opposition to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, and (2) opposition those who want to destroy Israel. (A policy that put America first would call for a return to our 1920s' isolationism -- to make America what Switzerland was in the 20th century.)
Usually, the democratic socialism supported by most Jews works to the detriment of both Jewish and non-Jewish Americans.
John Dunn
slicker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1108
A significant reason for the bad feeling has to do with the attitude of (mainly young) American Jews towards !! all !! Jews who choose to live in Germany. Many American Jews are vocal in their opinion that no self-respecting Jew should ever set foot in Germany, much less voluntarily live there. They � the Americans � are critical of !! everything !! about Jewry in Germany, including the way they practice their religion.
I find that to be quite extreme, don't you?
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
John, that guy is 40 years old or so, works for MIT so supposedly intelligent.
Klaas Boesche
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 2
I think, one reason why young Americans(not only young Jews) think so strongly about Germany is because they don't know how things have changed in Germany. They may have gotten their portion of world history in high school, but that doesn't give them today's situation, as I often experience when I'm talking to students here in the US. They ask me (I'm a German exchange student, to clarify things) wether the nazis are still big in Germany, wether we still hate Jews and wether we like Hitler (besides questions about wether we have cows, pizza and TV :roll: ).
Richard Hawkes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
Originally posted by Klaas Boesche:
I think, one reason why young Americans(not only young Jews) think so strongly about Germany is because they don't know how things have changed in Germany. They may have gotten their portion of world history in high school, but that doesn't give them today's situation, as I often experience when I'm talking to students here in the US. They ask me (I'm a German exchange student, to clarify things) wether the nazis are still big in Germany, wether we still hate Jews and wether we like Hitler (besides questions about wether we have cows, pizza and TV :roll: ).
You have cows?!?! I thought they were all exterminated by the Reich because they could foresee rain (like the Gypsies could)
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Klaas Boesche: "I think, one reason why young Americans(not only young Jews) think so strongly about Germany is because they don't know how things have changed in Germany."
Ist es nicht gefaehrlich ein Yarmulka (Kaepchen) auf der Strassen in Deutchland zu tragen, wie es ist jetzt im Frankreich?
Wenn nicht so, darf man ohne Gefahr ein Cowboy Hat tragen?
(Meine Frau is in England geboren. Auf der Universitaet im North Carolinia haben ihr andere Studenten gefragt, "Gibt es tractors in England, oder benuetzen die Baueren noch Ochsen?" :roll: )
Klaas Boesche
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 2
Ist es nicht gefaehrlich ein Yarmulka (Kaepchen) auf der Strassen in Deutchland zu tragen, wie es ist jetzt im Frankreich?
Wenn nicht so, darf man ohne Gefahr ein Cowboy Hat tragen?

You can wear any hat on the streets in Germany, except something with the symbol of the Nazi regime, well, you could, but somebody may beat you up.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Apparently Adolf Hitler Wine has had record sales this season
Wonder if this is a sign of some sort?? Or is this normal for Europe?
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Apparently Adolf Hitler Wine has had record sales this season
Wonder if this is a sign of some sort?? Or is this normal for Europe?

Good question.
There is a market for this kind of stuff. Not few germans buy it in Italy. The main atractivity of that "offer" consists in its ilegalness. In Germany you can't sell it.
But its by no means the mayority.
There have been another case, in my opinion even more significant case, of a jewish shop keeper in Berlin who started to wear traditional jewish habit. He became outcast and the people in the neighbourhood stopped buying. I find that very shocking. I believe that this wouldn't be possible in the west of my counjtry (where I live).
I don't want to downplay these anecdotes. But those are, I think, single events, which are immediatedly spoted by our media.
Our so called "recent history" (fachism) is still quite prominent in TV. There are people who wants to draw a closing line. Something me and the mayority don't think to be good idea. We shall not forget.
Nearly all our political parties are very clear regarding attitude towards fachism. Only the extreme right isn't. But they are getting no more than 2% during elections (you need >5% to be represented in the different parliaments - bund and laender). In the last year 2 quite unimportant politicians were thrown out of their parties for saying anti-semitic stuff. One was an arabic member from the ecological party. The other from conservative party (CDU). This guy had strong, long-lasting roots inside the region of his election base. A very conservative region. Nevertheless the conservative party kicked him out. There were some discussions first, if this wouldn't drive conservative people towards parties which support more extreme standpoints, but in the end they concluded that his standpoint is unacceptable.
The anecdotes mentioned above show that inside the population its not that clear. But you can believe Klass and me that a very huge mayority find Hitler-regime repulsive. Nevertheless there are regional differences. Out of history we are a very federalistic country.
2 years after re-unification we experienced a wave of neonazism among certain group of young people. Suddenly there were more people who openly wear nazi signs and not few horrible terroristic acts. The population showed an immediate and spontaneus response. Lots of really big demonstrations and solidarity with the jewish and turkish people who were targeted took place. For example together with a huge crowd of other people I played guard of synagoge of my city and it was nice party (was more symbolic than real).
Jews form a far smaller share of the population than before 33-45. The figures show that their share is rising. Me and the mayority of germans see this as a good sign.
regards Axel
[ December 13, 2003: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
There was an article in the NY Times recently about a German sculptor named Gunter Demnig who is making brass plaques for victims of the Holocaust. The plaques are placed in the sidewalk in front of the homes of people who were murdered. Demnig calls them stolpersteine (stumbling blocks). At least one German city has refused permission to allow them to be put into the sidewalk. He has placed more than 3,000 in 20 different German cities.


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
What would they say if tourists poured in from round the globe to see those plaques ? I'm sure that one city would fall over itself trying to get a share. The German economy could do with a boost and maybe we'd see something sensible come out of the EU that's not purely in Franco-German interests.
At the risk of sounding very insensitive perhaps it's time to let go, not by forgetting, but in memorium to the awful era. We have plaques here of famous people outside the houses they grew up in or before they became famous.
There's a move to stop demolition of a street of houses in London because in one house Andrew Lloyd Webber and his brother Julian grew up.That's how seriously we take our plaques. Anne Frank has a plaque outside the house in Amsterdam.
The Shi'ites in Iraq are not joining the Ba'athists in their struggles
because they are currently enjoying an economic flush (as in excitement) due to the huge numbers of pilgrims pouring into their capital city.
As arguably unethical as the Iraq war was, we would all like to get at any re-construction work going. Though it does seem to have been a terribly expensive exercise. Couldn't Cold War peace have been achieved by sending in Elvis to Germany and peace today, by sending Mo Mowlam to Iraq ?

We offer you Mo Mowlam....
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
There's a move to stop demolition of a street of houses in London because in one house Andrew Lloyd Webber and his brother Julian grew up.
OK, so that is the reason that they want to demolish the block. What is the reason they want to stop it?
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
By the way, I love the name of the plaques - stolpersteine (stumbling blocks). It isn't that they make you physically trip over them but that when you encounter them and realize that here lived a human being who was taken from his home and murdered by the German government, you mentally stumble over them.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
OK, so that is the reason that they want to demolish the block. What is the reason they want to stop it?

I thought you were trying to be funny and succeeding. But on second reading, yes, that statement doesn't quite say it.
The reason they want to demolish the houses in the street is to make way for new housing. But those-who-decide-these-matters would rather hang a plaque in honour of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Julian,on the house they grew up in and leaving the other houses in the street as they are.
One stolpersteine sorted hopefully.
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
murdered by the German government

murdered by a german government sounds more proper english for me.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Does that make it easier to accept?


Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Articles war!


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
As arguably unethical as the Iraq war was
To those of us who supported the war in Iraq, it has in no way been unethical. If anything, there is far more argument on the side of the war than against it. A brutal dictator was deposed.
However, those who were willing to sit on tnhe sidelines while the war was waged are now perfectly free to continue to sit on the sidelines as the reconstruction proceeds.
They certainly wouldn't want to be involved in anything so unethical.
Joe
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
As arguably unethical as the Iraq war was
Hmm... And here I had always thought that it was the opposition to that conflict that was unethical.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Articles war!

I mean it's not that you have an international conflict every time somebody used "the" rather than "a".
Unrelated: The best thing about this war is that both sides took their respective sides because of highly ethical arguments.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
The best thing about this war is that both sides took their respective sides because of highly ethical arguments.
What exactly were the ethical arguments for NOT deposing Hussein? I'll try to come up with the top five:
5. Hussein's sons only able to rape two or three women a day.
4. Hussein hadn't actually wiped out an entire ethnic group yet.
3. Hussein hadn't gassed his own people in MONTHS.
2. The UN policies were working, they just needed more time.
-and-
1. Hussein really a nice guy, just misunderstood by the media.
There were NO ethical arguments for letting this buffoon continue to murder his own people. You may not like how America deposed him, but since our so-called "allies" in the UN did exactly what Hussein expected - that is, nothing - then it was left to us to do the dirty work.
Joe
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
You may not like how America deposed him
Some Iraqis think he'll be back,Joe. In the same way that some Elvis-fans think Elvis will be back. At least Hitler had the decency to unKampf at the end of the last act.
Saddam Hussein has been captured alive! To be tried in Guatanama Bay possibly.
[ December 14, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
[Axel]: murdered by a german government sounds more proper english for me.
No, I don't think so. That would seem to imply that there was more than one German government in existence simultaneously. Which was true for some time after WWII, but not during the period under discussion. I understand the desire to emphasise that the government has changed since then, but I think your suggested replacement would create more confusion. A more suitable alternative might be "murdered by the German government of the time" - but I think "of the time" is obvious enough in context that it doesn't really need to be stated. To take a less emotionally charged example, I would say "Bob got to shake hands with the President of the US" rather than "Bob got to shake hands with a President of the US". Heck, even if it happend twice with two different presidents - I might say "twice in his lifetime, Bob got to shake hands with the President of the US". Each time it happened, there was one President; the President. That's quite enough to justify the "the", IMO.
[Map]: Articles war!
I mean it's not that you have an international conflict every time somebody used "the" rather than "a". :code:

Well where do you think the phrase "articles of war" came from?


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
[Joe Pluta]: What exactly were the ethical arguments for NOT deposing Hussein?
Well the most obvious one IMO is the innocents tend to die when bombs are dropped, regardless of intent. I mean, on balance I support the US decision to do it in this case, considering the positives versus the negatives, but if you're trying to think of counterarguments, it's not really that difficult , is it? :roll:
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Joe: What exactly were the ethical arguments for NOT deposing Hussein? I'll try to come up with the top five.
Joe, we just deposed a brutal dictator, that's cool. Does that mean everybody else should do the same? But everybody else has very different ideas about what exactly "brutal dictator" means. Like when Saddam invaded Kuwait, he was thinking he was dong a good thing too! So what is the difference between us and Saddam? You will explain the thing about "brutal dictator", but how is it that you cannot sell your vision to anybody else? Doesn't this bother you? It should.
Jim: No, I don't think so. That would seem to imply that there was more than one German government in existence simultaneously.
I will never get this your damn "article" thing.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
But everybody else has very different ideas about what exactly "brutal dictator" means. Like when Saddam invaded Kuwait, he was thinking he was dong a good thing too! So what is the difference between us and Saddam? You will explain the thing about "brutal dictator", but how is it that you cannot sell your vision to anybody else? Doesn't this bother you? It should.
"Everybody else" in this case is you and perhaps Ravish. In the broader sense, the few who still complain about the ethics of the war are whining anti-Bush, anti-America idiots. If I were you, I'd be more worried being lumped in with those narcissistic mouthbreathers than with the folks that think deposing genocidal maniacs is a good thing.
And I know you're just causing trouble comparing our invasion of Iraq and Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Either that, or you've played this situational ethics game so long your brain has finally warped.
Joe
David Weitzman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 1365
Countries don't do things. People do things. I'm not an expert on German history, but considering that the Jews seemed to be getting along well before the Nazi party came to power I assume that the anti-semetic thing was just a random political fluctuation (or more accurately, no different than any of the other instances of anti-semetism which have recurred throughout history). Since the beginnings of mass communication, human viewpoints have changed pretty radically on a regular basis.
The point: It would be rather silly to hold a grudge against and entire country for over fifty years.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I support the US decision to do it in this case, considering the positives versus the negatives, but if you're trying to think of counterarguments, it's not really that difficult, is it?
Actually it is quite difficult, unless yours is a morality that condones watching somoene murder someone else without stepping in. In fact, the only immoral thing was that we waited this long, but unfortunately the reality of the situation is that we can't always act unilaterally. Would that we could, or that the rest of the world could rise above its self-important complacency. Would that we could join together to provide a world where everyone is free to practice their religion, as long as that religion does not deny the same freedom to others.
But no, that would require two things: integrity, and the ability to tell the politically correct yahoos of the world to suck a tailpipe. And looking at that sentence, that's just two ways of saying the same thing.
Joe
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Good advice : Whatever you do don't hang out with yellow daffodils. :roll:
Here's PJ O'Rourke on Iraq stability and American Foreign Policy. He is describing how he got lost in a Baghdad slum on his way to The Museum of Modern Art.
"The people couldn't figure out what I was doing there. Of course, I couldn't figure out what I was doing there, either. I'm obviously an American, but I'm obviously not a soldier. And I don't seem to be a journalist either. There was a certain amount of hostility, a certain amount of welcome, and a certain amount of curiosity also. I felt like a stand in for American foreign policy: I was lost, they were mystified.
Interviewer :Based on what you saw on this trip to Iraq, what do you think we can expect to see over the next five years?
I think Rumsfeld put his finger right on it: "Long slog." My feeling is twofold: I don't think we are going to straighten out this country any time soon; it's going to be a very long haul. On the other hand, vast areas of Iraq are very peaceful and have been rid of a disgusting and repressive government. The other thing is, everyone talks about Iraq not being stable, but when it was stable it attacked Israel in 1967 and in 1973, it attacked Iran, it attacked Kuwait, it fostered terrorism in the Middle East. Who wants a stable Iraq? It's better for us and, in a way, better for the world that this government has been weakened and destroyed. Does it leave a mess behind? Do we owe it to the people of Iraq to try our best to clean up that mess? Yes. But is that mess our fault? No. It's a very complicated situation."
Interviewer: Do you think we're going to stay and clean it up?
That's a magic eight ball question. Answer: cloudy. Ask again later.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Saddam Hussein has been captured alive about 6 hrs ago midnight JR time He may be tried in Guantanamo Bay - possibly.
[ December 14, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
murdered by a german government sounds more proper english for me.

But then English is not your native language. There was only one German government (and a very popular one it was). Therefore "the" is proper usage.
 
permaculture playing cards
 
subject: Jews in Germany