File APIs for Java Developers
Manipulate DOC, XLS, PPT, PDF and many others from your application.
http://aspose.com/file-tools
The moose likes Meaningless Drivel and the fly likes In a dilemma...need help Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Spring in Action this week in the Spring forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Other » Meaningless Drivel
Bookmark "In a dilemma...need help" Watch "In a dilemma...need help" New topic
Author

In a dilemma...need help

Ajeeb Musibat
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 8
I think I am in a very difficult situation and I need some advice from fellow ranchers. I would appreciate any help. Here goes...
Before I get the the exact problem, I'll need to specify the a couple of premises which are making it very tough for me to take a decision.
1. I am a Hindu Indian. In Hinduism, there is a concept of Mokhsa. Moksha literally means freedom. Freedom from the trap of life. In brief, what is means is that there is a cycle of birth-death-rebirth that a soul goes through for purification and at the end of it the soul attains 'Moksha'. Attaining moksha is the sole purpose of a soul. Once it attains Moksha, it is merged with God and that's it. No more rebirths. So basically, no soul really wants to be in a body. It is born only to work hard (piously) and purify itself so that I may attain moksha.
2. Based on my experience, I find that this world is full of crap. There is so much suffering and pain. Specially, Man is so much into materialism that he is running blindly and madly towards nobody knows where. If God had asked me whether I would like to be born in this world, I would have said no. Now that I am here, I plan to live my life as it comes and I am not planning on suicide or anything like that. In fact, I am very happy with my life so far. But on a deeper level, I don't really see a point of our existance.
Now, here is the problem:
I have a beautiful, loving wife. We had a love marriage and we have been happily married for good amount of time. To cut the long sotry short, my wife wants kids and I don't. Divorce is not an option The reason I don't want kids is because: This is a world in which I myself don't want to live. Then how can I bring someone into this world?? Would it not be morally wrong to do that? As I mentioned above the ultimate thing for a soul is to attain Mokhsha. But by bringing a life am I not in a way all set for my own rebirth after I die? Logic is, since I got someone into this hell, it is only fitting that some else will bring me back here.
Second thing is there is already so much population. What's the need for more? Nearly all religions require having babies but that time was different. Population was very less, people used to die at a very yound age etc. So having babies was necessary for the survival of the society. But this is not the situation now. In fact, I think, if the world population doesn't stabalize, we are all doomed. So should I listen to the religion or to my logic?
Where am I wrong in this logic?
Another big problem is that our society in India is extremely bad at treating childless couples. It is even worse for a childless woman. (That's probably the reason why so much population in India). I can take all the crap but I really don't want my wife to suffer. More than anything else, I fear the society. Franlky, I am shit scared of what people will say once I settle down in India. In US, nobody gives a damn. Nobody bothers with anybody's personal life. In India, it is totally different. People dissect each and every personal aspect of your life. God, I hate that so much.

What should I do? I would appreciate any suggestions.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
huh.. this is news to me. I can recollect at least 4 of my friends who are married and childless. Move to a big city, I dont think you should have these problems with society there.. too many people and too many things to think about. No one in a big city is going to give a dime about you, leave alone your kids.


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Ajeeb Musibat
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 8
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
huh.. this is news to me. I can recollect at least 4 of my friends who are married and childless. Move to a big city, I dont think you should have these problems with society there.. too many people and too many things to think about. No one in a big city is going to give a dime about you, leave alone your kids.

You could be right about the metros but not about smaller cities (where I come from). Believe me, life is tough for childless couples, divorcess, unmarried women over 30yr age, you name it. People taunt you like anything. Even though I am still under 30, some of my old friends don't think twice to take a jab at me. They are all married and have kids and lose no opportunity to 'advice' me to go to a fertility specialist etc.
Ajeeb Musibat
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 8
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
huh.. this is news to me. I can recollect at least 4 of my friends who are married and childless.

How old are they? No children for young couples is ok everywhere. The problem comes when you grow old.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
I'm guessing here because I dont exactly remember their ages but this is a rough age-group
One person is 24, Another 28, Another 25, Another 33
Ajeeb Musibat
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 8
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
I'm guessing here because I dont exactly remember their ages but this is a rough age-group
One person is 24, Another 28, Another 25, Another 33

Ask your you friend who is 33 about how much pressure he has for this Is he childless by choice?
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11402
    
  16

wow... here's my 2 cents...
I agree that we must get the population on the planet under control. so i'm with you on the "no child" thing. My wife and i have agreed to not have kids ourselves, for various reasons, but we live in a different society.
Is adoption an option? would this solve the jabing issue? or is this not considered viable?
as far as not bringing another soul into this planet - i'm not sure that holds water. How do you know what your soul felt when it was not in a body? i'm betting you don't remember any of that, so how do you know your soul said/would have said "i don't want to be there?"
I'm not trying to be mean, or make fun of you. But if you believe in a soul, then you have to accept it exists on some other level than your brain. Just because your brain says you don't want to be here, doesn't mean your soul feels the same way.
just because you feel that YOU would not want to come back to this planet, that doesn't mean taht nobody ELSE wants to come back. so do you have the right to deny them their opportunity?
I'm not trying to convice you one way or the other, i just hope i can give you some more things to think about.


There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors
Ajeeb Musibat
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 8
Originally posted by fred rosenberger:

Is adoption an option? would this solve the jabing issue? or is this not considered viable?

I'm ok with it but my wife is not. She says why adopt if we can have ours. I am not even sure if adoption agencies will allow it.
Originally posted by fred rosenberger:

as far as not bringing another soul into this planet - i'm not sure that holds water. How do you know what your soul felt when it was not in a body? i'm betting you don't remember any of that, so how do you know your soul said/would have said "i don't want to be there?"
I'm not trying to be mean, or make fun of you. But if you believe in a soul, then you have to accept it exists on some other level than your brain. Just because your brain says you don't want to be here, doesn't mean your soul feels the same way.
just because you feel that YOU would not want to come back to this planet, that doesn't mean taht nobody ELSE wants to come back. so do you have the right to deny them their opportunity?

Thanks a lot for your points. Here is what I think. You are right, I don't know what my soul would have thought before I was born or what somebody else's soul would have thought. And that's exactly my problem. If I don't know that, the only thing I can rely on is what is going on in my mind. If my mind is saying that I don't want to be born, is it not best to rely on it rather than relying on the exact opposite? May be somebody does want to be born again. But that guess is as good as mine (that I don't want to be born again).
Ajeeb Musibat
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 8
Originally posted by fred rosenberger:
[QB]wow... here's my 2 cents...
just because you feel that YOU would not want to come back to this planet, that doesn't mean taht nobody ELSE wants to come back. so do you have the right to deny them their opportunity?
[QB]

Sorry, missed this point. Again, you are right that I don't have a right to deny that opportunity. But on the same note, do I have any right to force them into this world? I know, nobody knows what exactly goes on in a soul's mind, so what should I rely on? My logic or somebody else's logic?
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11402
    
  16

Well,
since you can't know your soul's mind (or anybody elses), take that out of the equation. You can't prove either is right or wrong, better or worse... so don't use it.
That leaves the population on the planet, and the social stigma of not having children. does one worry you more than the other?
as to "why adopt if you can have your own" - 1) population issue 2) because those children need love/care/a good life too, 3) is it better to create a person straight into a good life, or to take someone out of a bad situation and put them into a better one?
Ultimatly, you and your wife will have to decide what's right for you. And you can't let anybody else tell you what that is.
Nirvan Sagar
Greenhorn

Joined: May 01, 2003
Posts: 26
You are already attached to material bondage . Its too late for you to turn back now.May be next life.Anyways its only your soul so I dont think it wont mind the wait. You have already brought onto yourself lot of commitments by getting married. Okay the world sucks ,but there are a better ways to help the world than to remain childless, so how is that coming up. And have you assimilated the whole of Bhagavad Gita and know it verse by verse that you now feel you should follow it. Did you read the original or an interpretation , how do you know if the interpretation is exact.
If you still feel like going the Gita way .. try Karma Yoga for your moksha
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Well, since you've already rejected a life of celibacy, I would say you should have one or two children (to ensure you don't get reincarnated as a childless Indian woman).
When people with good incomes don't have children, it increases the percentage of chldren born into poverty.
By the way, what's the difference between Moksha and Nirvana?
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Look on the bright side:
We could have been born scallops and had a million little scallops. There are no he- and she- scallops.
A bit of Moral Relativism..
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
Well, since you've already rejected a life of celibacy, I would say you should have one or two children (to ensure you don't get reincarnated as a childless Indian woman).

I don't understand the reasoning behind reincarnation but could it be possible that Ajeeb's wife could be reincarnated as a man to fulfill a wish for children ?
She might want to continue an upward reincanation path by having children in this life ..
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
Bartender

Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
By the way, what's the difference between Moksha and Nirvana?

Nirvana:
1.Buddhism. The ineffable ultimate in which one has attained disinterested wisdom and compassion.
2.Hinduism. Emancipation from ignorance and the extinction of all attachment.
An ideal condition of rest, harmony, stability, or joy.
Moksha
Ajeeb wrote
'Moksha'. Attaining moksha is the sole purpose of a soul. Once it attains Moksha, it is merged with God and that's it. No more rebirths. So basically, no soul really wants to be in a body. It is born only to work hard (piously) and purify itself so that I may attain moksha.


Spritle Software Blogs
Malhar Barai
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 17, 2001
Posts: 399
Aasoon tere nikle to aankhen meri ho,
dil tera dhadke to dhadkane meri ho,
khuda kare dosti hamari itni gehri ho,
baap tu bane mehnat meri ho !!!

from here
just joking man..hope you dont feel offended. & this is not a personal attack
MB
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Ajeeb Musibat:

2. Based on my experience, I find that this world is full of crap. There is
The reason I don't want kids is because: This is a world in which I myself don't want to live. Then how can I bring someone into this world?? Would it not be morally wrong to do that?
Second thing is there is already so much population. What's the need for more? Nearly all religions require having babies but that time was different. In fact, I think, if the world population doesn't stabalize, we are all doomed. So should I listen to the religion or to my logic?
Another big problem is that our society in India is extremely bad at treating childless couples. It is even worse for a childless woman. (That's probably the reason why so much population in India). I can take all the crap but I really don't want my wife to suffer.
What should I do? I would appreciate any suggestions.

Ajeeb, I don't think there is an absolute answer to all of your questions, but in my opinion you are leaving a few things out of your analysis.
You are perhaps forgetting that the intellect has it's limits, A lot of worthwhile things are begun on nothing more than hope. Right now my life is very bad. Bad enough for me to have thought of suicide (fleetingly). The pressures now are more than I can cope with. My saving grace is hope. I expect some pressures to let up long enough so that I can sort out some of my problems. I fully expect life to get better over the next year and confidently expect it to become worth living within a year or two from now.
Despite all the good things in your life you say that had you been asked you would have chosen not to be born. I respect that though I suspect that I am worse off than you are in many ways. Despite that I relish life and bless God for having created me.
How can you justify bringing a child into a world you find so painful? How can you make the decision against life for your children? They may well choose to be born, you cannot know.
As for world population the latest projection is that world population is already stabilizing and may actually drop over the next 50 years. Population is already dropping in most of the richer nations except for the US. The long term trend in societies such as India and Pakistan is a radical drop in birthrates from 30 years ago and I expect that trend to continue.
Finally, you seem to ask what the purpose of all the suffering is? I have no answer on a global scale. I suspect this is a question which it is only useful to ask on a personal level. What is my purpose?
Well, if you have children you may well learn an answer to your question. Your purpose may be to love your wife and children and raise them as best as can be. Very humble but working solutions frequently are pretty mundane.
Good luck, fella.


SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Malhar Barai:
Aasoon tere nikle to aankhen meri ho,
dil tera dhadke to dhadkane meri ho,
khuda kare dosti hamari itni gehri ho,
baap tu bane mehnat meri ho !!!

from here
just joking man..hope you dont feel offended. & this is not a personal attack
MB

Please try and post as far as possible in English. If you do wish to post in a foreign language then please provide a translation for the benefit of other ranchers.
Ajeeb Musibat
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 8
Thank you all very much for your thoughts. They are indeed very useful.
Originally posted by fred rosenberger:
Well,
since you can't know your soul's mind (or anybody elses), take that out of the equation. You can't prove either is right or wrong, better or worse... so don't use it.

Yes, I think that makes sense.
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
Well, since you've already rejected a life of celibacy, I would say you should have one or two children
By the way, what's the difference between Moksha and Nirvana?

Well, yes, I did reject celibacy because I didn't have any of such thoughts back then. It's only now that I am getting all these thoughts.
Also, even married people do family planning and use contraceptives after having 1 or 2 children. So it is not like if you are married, keep making babies till you can. So isn't stopping after 2 kids is, in a way, same as stopping after 0 kids?
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
By the way, what's the difference between Moksha and Nirvana?

As far as I know, Nirvana is the act of the soul leaving a body. Moksha, as I explained above, is the ultimate or the last stage of a souls journey.
Balaji also gave a philosohical meaning of Nirvana.

Originally posted by Malhar Barai:
Aasoon tere nikle to aankhen meri ho,
dil tera dhadke to dhadkane meri ho,
khuda kare dosti hamari itni gehri ho,
baap tu bane mehnat meri ho !!!

Actually, I am offended by this. Earlier when Paul McKenna said, "this is news to me", this is exactly the attitude of most of the people in India which I was referring to. People make fun of you and mock you saying you are impotent if you don't have kids.
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

...
How can you justify bringing a child into a world you find so painful? How can you make the decision against life for your children? They may well choose to be born, you cannot know.
...

Alfred, I sincerely hope and wish your situation improves. Yes, I understand that I am in a lot better postion than many people. But does being in a better position means having kids? Why do people stop having kinds are 1 or 2 or 3? Earlier people used to have as many kids as their "sexual" health permitted (since there were no contraceptives). Why don't people do that now?
The reason, I think, could be: cannot afford (could be due to inconvenience or money), understanding of population explosion, and satisfaction with 1 or 2 kids.
So my point is that people are making decision about kids based on their intellect. So if my intellect says don't have kids at all where am I wrong?
Franly speaking, I know that I am confused. I want to share my thoughts just to get an idea how confused I am So please do post your thoughts on this.
[ December 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ajeeb Musibat ]
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Also, even married people do family planning and use contraceptives after having 1 or 2 children. So it is not like if you are married, keep making babies till you can. So isn't stopping after 2 kids is, in a way, same as stopping after 0 kids?

I think that stopping at 2 kids is partly a recognition that the children will live to adulthood, and partly that women have jobs and careers today which preclude them spendign many years pregnant. Also that children must spend many years being educated and are no longer an economic asset (as in many farm spcieties powered by human labor).
Why not stop at 0? Well that is a personal choice, one between you and your wife. Do not forget your wife in this. I have seen at least one marriage come undone on this issue.
Having children is always an expression of hope and an investment in the future. It's taking a risk. Taking calculated risks can be good for human beings. It forces them to grow and change. Indeed that is basically my strategy for getting out of my current coil, to take risks and trust in the future. There is a verse in the US military tradition which addresses the question of courage and trusting in fate which I think applies more universally. Montrose' Toast:
He fears his fate too much, or his deserts are small. Who dares not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all!
Ajeeb Musibat
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 8
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

Do not forget your wife in this. I have seen at least one marriage come undone on this issue.

That's exactly my worry. She wants kids (at least 1) and I don't. She loves me a lot and she'll sacrifice her wish for me. But I don't want her to suffer because of my crazy idea. So if we have kids I suffer, if we don't she suffers. As I mentioned before, divorce is not an option for either of us. We'll be together for life.
One lame excuse that I always give to her goes like this:
Having a kid is like marriage. For both, you require concent from both the parties. You can't force somebody to marry you just because you want it. Similary you can't force somebody to have kids just because you want it.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Ajeeb Musibat:

One lame excuse that I always give to her goes like this:
Having a kid is like marriage. For both, you require concent from both the parties. You can't force somebody to marry you just because you want it. Similary you can't force somebody to have kids just because you want it.

I agree that it's lame, because the primary purpose of marriage is to protect children. It's only been 40 years since having children was even an option at all.
Tim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 04, 2003
Posts: 541
have one just to keep the ball and chain happy, after all you're still having a negative affect on the population numbers. if you want more later you can adopt.
by raising children correctly you will actually help make the world a better place than by having none and letting all the ****** raise the children


Kim Jong II (North Korea's Dear Leader) said:Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people.
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
Bartender

Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Originally posted by Tim Baker:
have one just to keep the ball and chain happy, after all you're still having a negative affect on the population numbers. if you want more later you can adopt.

This really makes sense in many aspect (Escp from the Indian society point of view).
Just give a thought.
trupti nigam
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 21, 2001
Posts: 613
If you were (are) so much concerned about materialistic/bad world and believe in the "moksha" and have some fixed opinions about having kids; before getting married you should have clarified this to your then "would be" wife and should have married to someone who agrees with your opinions.That wouldn't have put you in today's "Ajeeb musibat"
Now that you are already married I think in "my view" the best option is to 1)go for adoption or 2) go for atleast one kid.
I am sorry if you find me little rude.

trupti
Dawson Irvine
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 07, 2003
Posts: 9
Move to Canada...


------------<br />Dawson Irvine<br />CEO - DNI Web Design<br /><a href="http://www.dniwebdesign.ca.tt" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.dniwebdesign.ca.tt</a>
John Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
So should I listen to the religion or to my logic?
Does your wife want kids because she wants them or because she feels the pressure from the society? If it is the former, you have a serious problem to address: if you decide for yourself not to have children, she may never be happy. But if it is the latter, than it's a workable situation. You've got several alternatives.
1. Start a shift in the societal paradigms in your own country. That is, if the norms of your country prevent you from living a happy life, bend the country.
2. Move to some other country. In US, everyone is a Brahman (or at least you can think of yourself as such), and your personal life is a personal choice, among many other choices.
3. Advance your logic so that it doesn't contradict your religion.
4. Advance your religion so that it doesn't contradict your logic.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
It seems that Ajeeb's problem isn't a matter of logic.
I think that our logic and our intellect just always serve our feelings.
There is no any Logic which tells us that the world around us is full of pain, grief, injustice and nothing else. But if you FEEL so, your reason will prove it to you very convincingly.
The world is transcedental thing and its picture we have in our heads is just an incomplete puzzle. And it depends on you what bits for constructing your puzzle you will choose - dark and gloomy or some else.
As well as there are no logical reasons to have or not to have children. Or, properly saying, there are too much reasons for both choises. You just want children or just don't want them, and your intellect is always eager to explain you why.
All of it sounds like truisms of course, but sometimes it works.
Mondli Mabaso
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 18
I have nothing clever to say to you.... I doubt that anyone has. Nor any religion , ideology or belief system. You are the only one who is experiencing your reality. Choices lie with you. Thats how messed up the situation we are in is. Life is a big contradiction. Deal with it until you go to the grave.
Ur biggest problem is your belief system and religion. You have abstract valiables (eg Soul and God) that you consider in your equation of thought in decision making. These make it impossible for you to decide. Since you are a religious person, you probably think that there is the right action and wrong action to take. I say to you make your decision and liberate yourself. Choose not to have kids. Worry about nobody. Nothing. Just do it (TM).
Mondli M


Everything is Ok @ the end, if its not OK, then its not the END
Bhau Mhatre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 199
Originally posted by Ajeeb Musibat:
It(soul) is born only to work hard (piously) and purify itself so that I may attain moksha.

By refusing to have a child you are refusing other souls to be borne. You are refusing them their right to work hard to purify themselves so that they may also attain moksha. That's a sin on your part and that will only delay your own journey to Moksha.
On the other hand, if you do produce kids, then you are in fact helping other wondering souls to enter this world using the body of your children so that they too can work hard and purify themselves and attain moksha. That will be counted as "poonya" (good deeds) in your records and will speed up your journey to moksha.
How can you forget what Lord Krishna preached Arjun in the middle of a battle? If you believe in your "Dharma"(religion) then Do your "Karma"(work) and leave the result to Him. Your karma for now is to bring other souls into this world. Go my friend, have a some kids, have plenty of them, tens, hundreds, thousands, ... let them all come into this world, let them work hard, and let them too attain moksha along with you. Helping them attain moksha is a part of your duty to complete your own cycle.
Tathastu!


-Mumbai cha Bhau
Ashwini Mehta
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 14
Originally posted by Ajeeb Musibat:
This is a world in which I myself don't want to live. Then how can I bring someone into this world?? Would it not be morally wrong to do that?

Dear ajeeb,
You seem to be well versed with our basic tenets - so you will also be aware that the child you are bringing into this world is a child only in material form, but it is an old soul that needs to return to this material world to complete its karmic cycle before being absorbed into brahman. By not having children doen not mean you are sparing the soul from this world, it only means that the sould will be born elsewhere...
However, if your real concern is population control, then thats another issue.
Best of luck with your decision
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Which part of India you are into? Please do not generalise your comments on Indian society. I have stayed in places from small villages to big cities in western India and some time in USA. My observation is that on such issues, its a perception of an individual on his/her own situation rather than real interest of the people around you which creates the pressure.
For your question, discuss with your wife, give her thoughts due weightage and decide. If you decide not to have kids, then stop guessing what others might say. You will have a pleasant surprise that no one is bothered about your personal life - whether its in New York or in Zumari Talaiya (a small Indian village made famous by All India Radio)
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: In a dilemma...need help