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Google Goes Goofy

Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Unbelievable. Political correctness just went too far for me.
Google puts out special web pages for everything from Albert Einstein's birthday to the Anniversary of the Wright Brothers' first flight, but they don't put out anything for Christmas.
That's just stupid.
Joe
Arjun Shastry
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Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Is it bcos Google won't like to be labeled as Religious?Truly secular!


MH
Jim Yingst
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Why do you assume it's political correctness, Joe? Maybe the founders, or the artist, just don't care for Christmas. Or maybe the think its our most overdecorated holiday already, and don't feel overly inspired to do anything special. Looking at the holidays they've done in the past, I think they tend to be more interested in offbeat stuff. But what, you're unhappy because a private company chooses not to decorate for Christmas? Why? Aren't you the one who in the past has complained about others' unjustified "sense of entitlement"? Mmmm, irony...


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Joe Pluta
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Posts: 1376
Aren't you the one who in the past has complained about others' unjustified "sense of entitlement"?
Jim, there are times when I don't understand a word you say. You make sentences, but there's no meaning I can grasp. How is recognizing Christmas some sort of litmus test of entitlement? What exactly do you think that I think I am entitled to?
All I am saying is that someone that recognizes the anniversary of the Kitty Hawk flight should also recognize Christmas, simply out of a sense of the importance of the day for the billion or more people worldwide who celebrate it. It's not an entitlement thing at all, simply one of acknowledgment that Christmas is as important a day of the year as Albert Einstein's birthday.
If they want to recognize Hannukah and Kwanzaa, I have no objections, but to simply act as though Christmas doesn't exist, well that's just disrespectful. If you make a show of recognizing dates, you're by definition choosing which ones you think is important, and with this, they're saying they don't think Christmas is very important.
And just for the record Jim, I'm not asking them to decorate for Christmas, just acknowledge it - I really, really hate it when people stick words in my mouth, especially when they then use their own words to justify cute phrases like "Mmmmm, irony". I just feel Jesus Christ's birthday is as deserving of mention as Einstein's. There's nothing ironic about saying the fact that one or two billion people in the world celebrate Christmas makes it at least as deserving of mention as Halloween.
Joe
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I want to make sure I get my point across clearly here. I don't have any desire to see any religious tenets placed higher than another. What I DO hate, though, is the gradual leeching of all references to things religious or spiritual from our daily lives. The vast majority of people on the planet have some religious affiliation, and to somehow pretend those things don't exist is a gross injustice.
I do not demand that anyone have any particular religion, or that they have any religion at all. My closest friend is Jewish. Were we to follow this idiotic concept of disavowing the concept of religion, then we would simply tell each other "Happy Holidays" and be done with it - nice, clean, sterile, and ultimately useless.
Instead, I wish him "Happy Hannumas" and he wishes me "Merry Chrismakah", and in that way we acknowledge our friendship for one another, our respect for each other's religious beliefs, and our desire to embrace difference.
I do not ignore Judaism, I embrace it as a lovely, ancient religion and a part of the world around me. This idea that to acknowledge Christmas is to somehow endorse Christianity at the expense of other religions is stupid, and it denigrates one of the basic freedoms our country was founded on.
Once saying "Merry Christmas" to a stranger becomes something to be ashamed of, then we all lose.
Joe
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

Once saying "Merry Christmas" to a stranger becomes something to be ashamed of, then we all lose.
Joe

Adding to what u say joe it would also lead to a situation where children grow up with a thinking which says it is not correct to participate in something which is not theirs. I think festivals are a universal concept which needs to be shared across communities which eventually will lead to better understanding and lesser friction. I am a hindu but for me a christian celebrating the birth of jesus is as pure as hindus celebrating the birth of krishna.
Political correctness is nothing but the breeding ground for a ghetto mentality as the more you try to censor things the more they get closeted leading to intolerance.
Couldn�t agree more with u on this but as they say not everything being done in the world today has to be necessarily right.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Forgive me for interrupting this thread a bit but I am of the disposition that people who celebrate Kwanza will not get any respect from me or from anyone who holds similar beliefs as me.


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Joe Pluta
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Forgive me for interrupting this thread a bit but I am of the disposition that people who celebrate Kwanza will not get any respect from me or from anyone who holds similar beliefs as me.
Paul, since you're a native of India and of Indian ancestry (despite the pen-name of "Paul McKenna"), what beliefs do you have that prevent you from respecting someone who celebrates Kwanzaa? On what grounds?
Joe
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Forgive me for interrupting this thread a bit but I am of the disposition that people who celebrate Kwanza will not get any respect from me or from anyone who holds similar beliefs as me.
Paul, since you're a native of India and of Indian ancestry (despite the pen-name of "Paul McKenna"), what beliefs do you have that prevent you from respecting someone who celebrates Kwanzaa? On what grounds?
Joe


Ya even i would like to hear that.
Arjun Shastry
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Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
The reason for not posting Xmas things by a company which is known worldwide is quite understood.If they post Xmas,then every year they will have to do that.Again for every major/minor religion,people will blame google for not posting the news about their festival.and will blame google unnecessarily.Happy Christmas then Happy ID then Happy Diwali and list goes on.Google will have to appoint seperate person for doing those things.
John Smith
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Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
Joe: Google puts out special web pages for everything from Albert Einstein's birthday to the Anniversary of the Wright Brothers' first flight, but they don't put out anything for Christmas.
I don't understand what you are questioning, Joe. The front page of Google? I see snow balls and stuff over there, presumably acknowledging the holiday season. What do you want them to show, -- virgin Mary in the process of delivering baby Jesus, through a C-section?
I remember watching a report on TV, where a journalist was asking the department store workers about what is most difficult part of work for them during the Christmas season. Many of them identified Christmas songs, same tunes played over and over again, the entire working shift.
Joe Pluta
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Posts: 1376
What do you want them to show, -- virgin Mary in the process of delivering baby Jesus, through a C-section?
The above statement is grotesque, Eugene, and beneath you.
A Christmas tree would have been nice, along with the phrase "Merry Christmas" in the rollover. Nothing elaborate.
Joe
Joe Pluta
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Posts: 1376
If they post Xmas,then every year they will have to do that.Again for every major/minor religion,people will blame google for not posting the news about their festival.
Well, if you're worried about the number of holidays you're acknowledging, maybe you can limit it to holidays celebrated by a billion or more people :roll: .
Anyway, I'm not going to argue. The concept that it's wrong to say Merry Christmas is simply indefensible to me, and I'll happily agree to disagree here.
Joe
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Paul, since you're a native of India and of Indian ancestry (despite the pen-name of "Paul McKenna"), what beliefs do you have that prevent you from respecting someone who celebrates Kwanzaa? On what grounds?
Joe[/QB]

The truth behind the creator of Kwanza
Kwanza is not an age old festival.. it was created in 1966 in California by a guy named Ron McKinley Everett who later changed his name to Dr.Karenga. He was the leader of a black separatist movement. Here are some excerpts from his past:
There were incidents involving beatings and shootings, including one in 1969 in which two US members shot and killed two Black Panthers. Dr. Karenga had other run-ins with the law, including charges that he abused women.
In 1971, he was convicted of assaulting female members of US, and he served time in prison. An LA Times snippet describes the torture of the women as involving a hot soldering iron placed in the mouth of one, while the other's toe was mashed in a vice.
Dr. Karenga says that he is the victim; he was quoted in the News: "All the negative charges are in fact disinformation and frame-ups by the FBI and local and national police."
One thing that's interesting to note about the inventor of Kwanzaa: Practically all of his crimes were committed against black people. And yet, today, he is simply known as an academic who created a holiday for cultural unity.

Would you truly celebrate anything that is the invention of a mind like this? I'm sure someone here will say that Kwanza is not about the person but about the values etc. But in that case shouldnt we also celebrate other festivals invented by extremist organizations but which actually promote good values?
Kwanza was created to be divisive intentionally. It was created with the notion that black people should remain African and not assimilate into the American ethic. I believe this is wrong.. you may disagree that is your right.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by John Dunn:
Why are you even interrupting the thread?
What is so important that everyone has to stop and listen to what you have to say?
You need to stop the thread a few minutes after Christmas to tell us all how folks who celebrate Kwanza won't get respect from you. Wow, man, thanks for that information. Why do you think anyone cares?[/QB]

Dude, if you have a problem with me.. start ignoring my posts from now on. Engaging in a debate is the intention of these forums. If you truly have a problem with that just skip any post that has "Paul McKenna" on the left hand side column. Personally, I am getting fed up with your assaults.
Joe Pluta
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Posts: 1376
Paul, do you know anybody who celebrates Kwanzaa? Are they bigots or extremists? Nobody I know is, and the intent of Kwanzaa as practiced today has nothing to do with the original black power movement of the 60's which spawned it. And while I don't put Mr. Karenga in line for sainthood, his story isn't a lot different than many people of that era. Another angle:
http://www.africanpubs.com/Apps/bios/0846KarengaMaulana.asp?pic=none
In any event, you don't know anyone who celebrates Kwanzaa, yet you disrespect anyone who does. This is bigotry, plain and simple, and it's one more reason why I wish you'd use your real name when you say this sort of crap. People are going to assume you are American, and I think that's really your goal. If you didn't want people to assume that, you'd change your name back.
Joe
Jim Yingst
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Regarding Paul's Kwanzaa comments, I had the same reaction as Joe, and pretty much agree with everything he's said on that subject. Shocking, I know. (Well, I care less about which name Paul uses, but that's a side issue.) Regardless of the alleged motivations of its originator, many of the people celebrating the holiday today do indeed celebrate it as a positive, inclusive celebration. Maybe there are also bigoted black separatists celebrating it differently; dunno 'cause I didn't get invited to those parties for obvious reasons. But insulting everyone who celebrates Kwanzaa seems quite uncalled for. (And what did it have to do with this thread?) You didn't just target the person who originated Kwanzaa; you said you have no respect for anyone who celebrates it. If you'd said you thought they were mistaken about its origin and meaning, that's one thing. But no, you said that they don't desrve any respect. Is it a surprise to you that this might be perceived as offensive by others?
[ December 26, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Joe Pluta
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Maybe there are also bigoted black separatists celebrating it differently; dunno 'cause I didn't get invited to those parties for obvious reasons.
[chuckling] Me neither, Jim...
Joe
John Smith
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Joe to PkM: In any event, you don't know anyone who celebrates Kwanzaa, yet you disrespect anyone who does.
Fair enough, Joe.
Jim Yingst
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From another thread:
[Joe]: Now that I find myself defending Christmas, it's just too, too much.
Maybe you should take a step back then. I didn't realize Christmas was under attack. Not by people here at least. From my perspective, I was defending Google's right to not explicitly acknowledge some holidays if they choose. You see that they don't have a Christmas logo and assume someone was prevented from putting such a logo up; I see the same and consider that perhaps they donn't feel like putting up a Christmas logo - yet now they're evidently expected to. I don't really know which is more true here; either seems possible. But you'll note I did phrase my post as questions, precisely because I'm not sure; I'm considering possibilities.
If indeed Google's logo choosers want to celebrate Christmas but are being prevented from doing so because of a corporation's desire for political correctness, that's indeed a shame, I agree. But conversely if they don't choose to celebrate it explicitly, I don't think they should feel compelled to do so.
[Joe]: How is recognizing Christmas some sort of litmus test of entitlement? What exactly do you think that I think I am entitled to?
Entitled to see Christmas officially recognized by Google in their logo. From subsequent comments maybe that's not what you meant; I see mixed signals there. Or maybe when you said "entitlement" you were thinking of something different than what I'm talking about (e.g. financial entitlement). To be honest I only dimly recall the context of your oringinal comment, and it's probably not relevant here, so perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it at all. Consider my "entitlement" comment withdrawn then; we can concentrate on other things.
[Joe]: And just for the record Jim, I'm not asking them to decorate for Christmas, just acknowledge it
We're talking about the logo, right? Changing the logo is as much decorating as Google does for anything, as far as I know. Are you asking for less than a Christmas-specific logo? Or did you think I thought you were asking for more?
[Cap]: If they post Xmas,then every year they will have to do that.Again for every major/minor religion,people will blame google for not posting the news about their festival.
[Joe]: A Christmas tree would have been nice, along with the phrase "Merry Christmas" in the rollover. Nothing elaborate.

So "Season's Greetings" isn't acceptable? And are these past designs so bad?





A couple of those are recognizably using Christmas lights. As for snowmen, well, Dennis Hwang has long favored designs that make graphic use of the o's in "Google". It's part of his style. As such, snowmen are probably more likely to appear in the logo than are trees. I suppose one year we may see a Christmas ornament instead; that would fit fairly well.
[Joe]: Well, if you're worried about the number of holidays you're acknowledging, maybe you can limit it to holidays celebrated by a billion or more people . :roll:
Where'd this you come from, Joe? Cap was describing what he thinks Google's motiviation is.
As for the counterargument: that would be one way to go about it. Though I suspect they'd just find that there are a bunch of other people who are miffed because their own religious holiday was overlooked. It's not as though Muslim or Hindu holidays have been acknowledged either. (Hindus may currently be below the arbitrary "billion or more" cutoff, not sure, but they're close at least.) Maybe the Google folks just want to save themselves some headaches and just stay away from overtly religious holidays in general.
Or maybe they're more interested in focusing on relatively obscure stuff for fun. Personally, one reason I like the logo changes is that while I'm already well aware of things like Christmas, Easter, Thanksgivine, July 4, etc, I get pleasantly surprised to see things like Einstein's or Hitchcock's birthday, or anniversaries of flight or DNA discovery. I appreciate Google's apparent freedom to throw in random oddball stuff as they feel like, and hope they continue to do so without feeling they are obligated to recognize certain holidays according to their relative importance to different people in the world, and that if they include holiday X they must then include Y and Z as well.
[ December 26, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Paul, do you know anybody who celebrates Kwanzaa? Are they bigots or extremists? Nobody I know is, and the intent of Kwanzaa as practiced today has nothing to do with the original black power movement of the 60's which spawned it. And while I don't put Mr. Karenga in line for sainthood, his story isn't a lot different than many people of that era. Another angle:
http://www.africanpubs.com/Apps/bios/0846KarengaMaulana.asp?pic=none
In any event, you don't know anyone who celebrates Kwanzaa, yet you disrespect anyone who does. This is bigotry, plain and simple, and it's one more reason why I wish you'd use your real name when you say this sort of crap. People are going to assume you are American, and I think that's really your goal. If you didn't want people to assume that, you'd change your name back.
Joe


Yep! I agree with you and would like to retract my earlier comment to state more specifically that I object to the origins of the festival but perhaps it has found more meaning today.
Regarding my name and my origin.. does it make a difference? Would you view my statements in a different light based on my religion/race/ethnicity/citizenship/name??? Well.. that tells a lot about the way people are being judged in my opinion. I dont judge any of your comments by your name or your profession or your religion. I judge purely based on the conviction you bring forth through your statements.
Joe Pluta
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Posts: 1376
Would you view my statements in a different light based on my religion/race/ethnicity/citizenship/name??? Well.. that tells a lot about the way people are being judged in my opinion.
Did I say I would think of you differently? No. So don't stick words in my mouth. I am worried about what first time visitors might think.
If you read my comments, it's clear that I object to you using an American name because your statements are so distasteful. You use a purposely American-sounding name, term yourself an ugly redneck and your byline says your are part of the "right wing conspiracy". All of these pieces would tend to make people think of you as American, and with the comments you've been making lately, I really object to it, because you in no way represent America or mainstream American thought. Your comments are about as un-American as I can imagine.
Joe
Joe Pluta
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Jim, I have two issues.
First, ignoring Christmas is stupid. Over a billion people celebrate it, and those who don't can certainly respect those who do enough to say "Merry Christmas". All I want Google to do is say "Merry Christmas" in the rollover rather than Happy Holidays. I think Happy Holidays is an XPC copout, and I am sick of XPC.
Second, Google is targeting a specific holiday for avoidance. For example, how do they justify acknowledging Saint Patrick's Day but not Christmas? It's a SAINT'S DAY, fer goshsakes. They also recognized Easter for years, although I notice they've dropped that recently.
Anyway, I hate the fact that people ignore Christmas. I think it's stupid and counterproductive. I think Christmas spirit should be cultivated and cherished. And don't bother me with the crass commercialism bullcrap - that's part of every holiday. But there is a special underlying Christmas spirit that we tend to forget most of the time, but at least Christmas brings it to our attention once a year.
In an yevent, it's not worth arguing about. More research on Google's rather arbitrary selection criteria makes me think they're not mean-spirited, just a bit goofy, and thus the original title of this thread is more accurate than I suspected.
Joe
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Would you view my statements in a different light based on my religion/race/ethnicity/citizenship/name??? Well.. that tells a lot about the way people are being judged in my opinion.
Did I say I would think of you differently? No. So don't stick words in my mouth. I am worried about what first time visitors might think.
If you read my comments, it's clear that I object to you using an American name because your statements are so distasteful. You use a purposely American-sounding name, term yourself an ugly redneck and your byline says your are part of the "right wing conspiracy". All of these pieces would tend to make people think of you as American, and with the comments you've been making lately, I really object to it, because you in no way represent America or mainstream American thought. Your comments are about as un-American as I can imagine.
Joe

If others make assumptions and that too false ones why do you worry? They are false. I know of an Indian called Jimmy McDonald.. Paul McKenna is also a name as likely to be of Indian origin. It has nothing to do with location.
FYI.. Paul McKenna is the name I adopted after watching a British hypnotist of the same name. If anyone were to assume otherwise about my origin, dont worry I will clarify yet again. If you find my statements distasteful, please ignore them. I am not forcing anyone to read or respond to them.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Umm.. Joe, I think i have it figured out now. You just dont agree with my viewpoints. So you want to isolate yourself from me. As far as possible because you are afraid of being attached with the same labels as myself. Therefore you are taking every precaution even to the extent of correcting my nick name so that people dont even remotely identify me alongside you..
Am I correct???
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
You just dont agree with my viewpoints. So you want to isolate yourself from me.
Close. My problem is that people have negative enough views of Americans already. Many of them have no real contact with Americans except through this list. Your comments are so terribly distasteful that the last thing I want is for someone to read you name and think you're an American, and thus further tarnish the already tarnished image of Americans.
I know no Americans personally (and know of very few) who would ever say some of the things you say, Paul, and in order to make clear that your more hateful opinions are not those of an American, I will go out of my way to point out to people that you are in fact a native of India and of Indian descent. I would not have to do this if you didn't use a pseudonym that deliberately obscures your true nationality.
Joe
Paul McKenna
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This tells me two things.
1. You are willing to make a judgement about all Indians based on my opinion alone.
2. You are displaying the same prejudice that I am fighting against.
You are infact stating that all Indians are expressing solidarity with my opinions. This would make you judgemental , wouldnt it?? Would give you the label prejudice no??
John Dunn
slicker
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P.McK: Regarding my name and my origin.. does it make a difference? Would you view my statements in a different light based on my religion/race/ethnicity/citizenship/name???
Get REAL man. If I were pretending to be Jewish and then denying the Holocaust, do you think it would be no different than if I were saying the same things as an Arab, German, Russian, etc, etc? If one were condemning women, on a women's website, while pretending to be a woman would it mean anything? So yeah, man it does make a difference. Folks won't think you're legit, if that means anything. They may also think you lack sincerity and you may even be asked to prove yourself more often. We have freedom of speech in the U.S. but you will be called to defend your speech.
Paul if you hung out with my friends, or even in the same places I did, you wouldn't even get people to listen to your ideas. Forget about name calling. No one would give you any 'special' treatment. Why would you expect that? If I said the things you say, I'd most likely lose all my friends here in NYC. Yet, you whine about being called names. Sh** man, I'd probably wind up getting my ass kicked too, prior to losing my friends. Like Joe, I believe your statements are not what America is all about.
In fact, I suprise at how some people come out and defend you. Now I have to look back and wonder if some of those folks are anti-American as opposed to anti-War.

P.McK: Well.. that tells a lot about the way people are being judged in my opinion. What does it tell you? Be specific.
P.McK: I dont judge any of your comments by your name or your profession or your religion. I judge purely based on the conviction you bring forth through your statements.
Purely, surely. So why this next reply???:
originally posted by Paul McKenna just recently:
mm.. Welcome friend.. However I must ask you why you chose the name "Hussein Baghdadi" in particular. It seems like a mix of Saddam Hussein and Baghdad to me.. well Saddam Hussein is not exactly America's best friend and Baghdad isnt exactly very friendly to Americans right now. So why this combination? Or is your real name Hussein and you live in Baghdad..


"No one appreciates the very special genius of your conversation as the dog does."
John Dunn
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P. McK to JD: Dude, if you have a problem with me.. start ignoring my posts from now on. Engaging in a debate is the intention of these forums. If you truly have a problem with that just skip any post that has "Paul McKenna" on the left hand side column. Personally, I am getting fed up with your assaults.
P. McK to JP: If you find my statements distasteful, please ignore them. I am not forcing anyone to read or respond to them.

What are you REALLY saying?
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Engaging in a debate is the intention of these forums.

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen..." (Harry S. Truman)
Joe Pluta
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Posts: 1376
This tells me two things.
1. You are willing to make a judgement about all Indians based on my opinion alone.

I'm not making any judgment, Paul, simply stating facts. You are Indian, you are not American. These are facts, not judgments.

2. You are displaying the same prejudice that I am fighting against.
The truth is not prejudice. All I want is to be sure the truth is known. You are not American.

You are infact stating that all Indians are expressing solidarity with my opinions. This would make you judgemental , wouldnt it?? Would give you the label prejudice no??
I have stated nothing about India or Indians, nor do I think other Indians feel the way you do. Feel free to apologize about your completely incorrect assumptions.
For the record, I think very few rational adults anywhere in the world feel the way you do. I just don't want anyone thinking you are a typical American.
You are not an American. Your opinions have nothing to do with America, and few Americans agree with the more hateful statements you make.
Have I been clear enough?
Joe
Jim Yingst
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For example, how do they justify acknowledging Saint Patrick's Day but not Christmas? It's a SAINT'S DAY, fer goshsakes.
Well I still think they shouldn't need to justify it at all. But I think we're stuck on that particular issue; might as well move on.
My guess here is that this is included as an Irish holiday rather than a religious one. Google does a lot nationality- elated holidays. Dennis Hwang (Google's illustrator for several years now) started with a July 4 logo, followed with Bastille Day, and they've been doing quite a few nationality-related holidays since then. I don't know why they do these holidays but not primarily religious ones (anymore), but at least this (including St. Patrick's Day) seems consistent.
I'm somewhat sympathetic to those who complain about PC when it means they can't say something religion-related when they wish at Christmas (e.g. a teacher), or that they can't show a nativity scene in a public place. But when someone complains that someone else isn't observing a holiday in the proper manner, I tend to think it's not just those infamous nasty "PC" people who need to learn to chill out and mind their own business.
[ December 26, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
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Posts: 10065
JD: In fact, I suprise at how some people come out and defend you. Now I have to look back and wonder if some of those folks are anti-American as opposed to anti-War.
Hope you do not talk about me! "... people come out and defend you" -- What I think is Paul isn't your average mindless racist, he is seeking the Truth. Sometimes this path brings him where no decent man would walk but that's Ok, I think.
--------------------
"A hug is all the home I have but you are welcome to it." --Michael Ernest


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
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Posts: 10065
Joe: Close. My problem is that people have negative enough views of Americans already. Many of them have no real contact with Americans except through this list. Your comments are so terribly distasteful that the last thing I want is for someone to read you name and think you're an American, and thus further tarnish the already tarnished image of Americans.
Don't worry, Joe. Any decent anti-American can (I believe!) distinguish
between an American, an idea about America and well... Ugly Redneck.
--------------------
"A hug is all the home I have but you are welcome to it." --Michael Ernest
Sonny Gill
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
[QBWhat I think is Paul isn't your average mindless racist, he is seeking the Truth. Sometimes this path brings him where no decent man would walk but that's Ok, I think.
[/QB]

I would risk backing that up
When growing up in India (as a Hindu), you are made to believe that you are superior to other religions, and Indian culture is superior to other cultures.
When you try to break free from that conditioning (especially after you move out of India, and observe the western culture for yourself) sometimes it is easy to go too far! It isnt easy to find (Buddha's) Golden Mean.


The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet. - William Gibson
Consultant @ Xebia. Sonny Gill Tweets
Sonny Gill
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Joined: Feb 02, 2002
Posts: 1211

At the same time...I think you guys are doing a good job of pulling Paul in when he does go too far, and you are justified in worrying that some people may take Paul's views to be those reflecting a typical American, people do focus more on negativity.
I dont know how long Paul has been out of India, but while I was in New Delhi a couple of years ago, I found that nobody cares to be politically correct. Even educated, (supposedly) modern people would say things about muslims, Americans, Chinese, women or whoever that most of you would never expect to hear in a decent conversation. It is a shame, but that's the way things are there. I attribute it to the lack of knowledge and critical thinking, rather than any actual malevolence.
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
But when someone complains that someone else isn't observing a holiday in the proper manner, I tend to think it's not just those infamous nasty "PC" people who need to learn to chill out and mind their own business.
I'll try one more time here. Reviewing Google's policy, I don't think it is mean-spirited or "anti-Christmas". It's probably XPC, and in any event I think it's goofy to recognize Halloween and not Christmas.
Just plain goofy.
And while Google has every right to acknowledge whichever holidays they choose, I have every right to express my opinion that their choice is goofy.
Okay? We clear? I don't think Google is the anti-Christ, and it's not an earth-shattering deal to me, but if you choose St. Patty's Day over Christmas, you've got a real weird logic going on - you are in fact, goofy. Because to say "Happy Holidays" means you realize there's a holiday going on, but you're specifically going to ignore that it's Christmas.
I mean, if you follow this silly idea that you don't want to offend other religions, then why do they celebrate the Fourth of July? Doesn't that offend other countries? And Einstein's birthday - doesn't that offend other geniuses? I mean really, that argument only holds water if you've got a specific religious hangup.
And by the way, I am not saying HOW Google should acknowledge Christmas. Unlike your inaccurate analysis, I am upset because they simply chose to NOT acknowledge Christmas. There's a difference between asking for a creche and asking for the simple words "Merry Christmas".
To not acknowledge all holidays is one thing, but since they are in effect offering an editorial opinion by selecting certain holidays, then to celebrate Thanksgiving and not Christmas, I think that's goofy. It's my opinion. You are free to yours, Jim! You are free to tell me to mind my own business, too!
And by the way, Jim, I would mind my own business if Kevin chose to do this in the privacy of his own home, but he's sticking it in my face (and millions of other people who celebrate Christmas) by putting it on the home page of one of the most-used sites on the planet.
Anyway, I've expressed my displeasure, and I've yanked all advertising on Google. That's good enough for me.
Joe
[ December 26, 2003: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]
John Dunn
slicker
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Joined: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1108
Now I have to look back and wonder if some of those folks are anti-American as opposed to anti-War. Take it with a "grain of salt", everyone, please Remember that some of our highest leaders in this country were once war protesters in the Sixties. (Sen Hayden actually was in VietNam meeting with the commies at the same prison where Sen McCain was being held.) So my point is: I'm not about to tatoo any life-long labels on anyone.
I really don't buy what 'Paul McKenna' is preaching as searching for the truth. Controversial, yes, but something just doesn't add up here for me. "Searching for the truth" or benign ignorance doesn't exonerate anyone from hatred. (i.e. are misogynists or anti-gays searching for the truth? or promoting their own opinions and beliefs because it keeps them safe and secure? Recall that I've asked Paul on many occasions to come out and explain his psyche.)
I challenge you to check out the stormfront.org and the article on racism by Tommy Jackson. Make sure you also check out what they say about the 'Truth' about Martin Luther King from the page dedicated to his (uhhh... honor???) and from that page you can learn all about fraudulence of Kwanzaa???. IMHO, it's all pretty scary stuff.
Not to be one-sided , please check out this link that goes after the StormFront.org:Hate on the Internet
Check it out: On spreading LOVE: A Kwanzaa message and the responses that were sent back from various hate sites.
IMHO, if Paul was legit, he would have been ashamed to be associated with anything on that site. Yet, he defended his speech. WHY!!!??? It is not strange for him to tell whites when they should feel offended?
Sonny Gill, you bring up some understanding and compassionite points. I'd like to be so understanding, but Paul only changed his name this past year. So I think that perhaps he needs to be the one that steps up and comes clean.
Paul keep this in mind to in regards to Joe and I: If a strange doggie craps on my front lawn, I just watch it leave and then go pick up the dog doo-doo. If a person craps on my front lawn, I'll ran down the block and catch him and demand he tell me why he just did that. So, you could be rather grateful that we even question you.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Also sprach Joe Pluta:
I mean, if you follow this silly idea that you don't want to offend other religions, then why do they celebrate the Fourth of July? Doesn't that offend other countries?

Could, yeah; I was a bit surprised by this. Maybe they're seeing how thing go with counties first; if they don't get lynched, they open it up to more religious holidays too.
And Einstein's birthday - doesn't that offend other geniuses?
They can get around that one by saying they only recognize dead scientists. Who as a group are less likely to organize protests if they're passed over.
I mean really, that argument only holds water if you've got a specific religious hangup.
And if you think that one company's choice of holiday recognition need to be justified. My own position is that they can do whatever they want for whatever reason they feel like, as long as they're not promoting hate crimes or something. If it were my company, I'd probably want recogntion of a lot more holidays, including religious ones. Though I don't know how long my art budget would last. And once they look like they're trying to recognize most holidays, I think that makes them more vulnerable to complaints about favoritism. If they pick an oddball assortement and overlook many "obvious" holidays along the way, it's more obvious (IMO) that they're not trying or claiming to represent all holidays. Attempting completeness and fairness is probably a neverending and/or losing proposition; easier not to even try.
And who knows, maybe they've got marketing studies that show that the number of customers worldwide who'd be PO'ed about religious ads (for religions other than the respondant) is greater than the number who'd be PO'd by "Season's Greetings". Personally I think that the latter group is the smaller one, but of course I may be wrong, and obviously you're a member of that group. Maybe there will be enough other people who agree with you to effect a change in Google policy. If not, well, you've still got to do what you think is right for you; no further objection here.
I would mind my own business if Kevin chose to do this in the privacy of his own home
Mmmm... Kevin? I don't know my corporate leaders as well as perhaps I should, nad can't find a Kevin listed among Google's senior management. Who are we talking about here?
It's my opinion. You are free to yours, Jim! You are free to tell me to mind my own business, too!
Understood. We've both got rights to our opinions, and we're voicing our opinioins of each others' opinions. We could probably go on with that part ad infinitum, but our basic positions seem clear now. Good enough for me.
By the way, hope you had a merry Christmas. Cheers...
[ December 26, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
They can get around that one by saying they only recognize dead scientists. Who as a group are less likely to organize protests if they're passed over.
Thanks for returning this to the appropriate level of seriousness. It's not life or death.

Hmmm... Kevin?
I have NO idea how I converted "Dennis Hwang" to "Kevin". Definitely time to put this argument to bed .

By the way, hope you had a merry Christmas. Cheers...
And here's wishing you a happy and prosperous New Year.

Joe
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
http://www.google.com/holidaylogos.html
Google has had a holiday logo every year including this one. This was much less Christmasy than previous years. Perhaps they are running out of ideas?


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subject: Google Goes Goofy