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14th and 15th Centuries - not the Darkest Ages

HS Thomas
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Ever wonder why nothing much appears to have happened in the 14th and 15th centuries ?
[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Ever wonder why nothing appears to have happened in the 14th and 15th centuries ?

Never heard of the Rennaisance, huh? And didn't Columbus discover America in the 15th century? The Hundred Years War. The Black Death. The Printing Press. Seems to me that a few things did happen.


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Ernest Friedman-Hill
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  34

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And didn't Columbus discover America in the 15th century?

Damn straight. The greatest country in the world!


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Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill:
Damn straight. The greatest country in the world!
I thought France was?
Jim Yingst
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The greatest country in the world!
Well now you've done it.


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HS Thomas
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About a 1000 years before, the Germanic peoples brought low the Roman Empire and eastern emperors kept the flames of Pax Romana flickering.
Why were these years 5th Century to 7th Century called the Dark Ages ?
Who brought civilisation to / back to Europe. Not an Arnold Schwarzenneger throwback!
Jim Yingst
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Will there be any followup on the alleged subject of this thread (e.g. explaining what you're talking about), or are you already abandoning that topic?
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Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill:
Damn straight. The greatest country in the world!


Wrong thread!
There are two great book about Middle Ages:
"Civilization and Capitalism 15th-18th Century" by Fernand Braudel
(this is mostly about economics)
and "The Autumn of the Middle Ages" By J. Huizinga -- this is mostly about culture.
Hey, I've even read the latter!
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HS Thomas
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Just looking for a recorded time when nothing much happened. I'm sure you have seen too many threads titled "Nothing much happened".
10 centuries is a long time before the Renaissance.
I5th Century - America was discovered.
Now try and go back into the Abyss of time.
Tim Baker
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In the 15th century I managed to take back Hamburg from the Indians(led by Ghandi) and I ceded it back to Germany because I didn't want to fight a battle on two fronts.


Kim Jong II (North Korea's Dear Leader) said:Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people.
Tonny Tssagovic
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Well these were the DARK ages.. where ignorance ruled in here.. and science and knowledge in the rest of the world.. These were the times where arabs introduced Algebra and Chemistry and translated phylo. books and "invented the zero" (and by the way, after that they stayed there Just kidding, I don't wanna offend anyone) and Europeans biggest wish, was to go study in Andalucia (spain) and India .. (and there were probably outsourcing of cheap /untrained european man power to the East..).. But things have changed now so these are probably the dark ages in India and the rest of the world
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by HS Thomas:
I5th Century - America was discovered.
Now try and go back into the Abyss of time.

I often wonder if you banged your head a lot when you were a kid.
Is there a point to any of this?
By the way, a really good book on the 14th century:
A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Tonny Tssagovic:
Well these were the DARK ages..
The 14th and 15th centuries were not the DARK Ages. The 15th century was actually the time of the Renaissance. The 14th Century was a pretty tough time in Europe because half the population died from the Black Death.
Tonny Tssagovic
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The 14th and 15th centuries were not the DARK Ages. .

Thanks for mentioning that Thomas... Well I know but I though he was talking about post 5.th century..not in the subject but in one of his messages..

Why were these years 5th Century to 7th Century called the Dark Ages ?
Who brought civilisation to / back to Europe. Not an Arnold Schwarzenneger throwback!

[ January 27, 2004: Message edited by: Tonny Tssagovic ]
Jim Yingst
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Well you know, since nothing much was happening back then, one centruy is pretty much like another. They're practically interchangeable.
HS Thomas
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

I often wonder if you banged your head a lot when you were a kid.
I often wonder myself. That makes me logically sane.
Is there a point to any of this?
Well , it looks as though nothing much happened in the 5-7 Century onwards.
Everyone homes in on the 14th-15th Century.
Everyone thanks for all the book references.
Jim, centuries that just interweaved is a bit sad.
Were the Dark Ages truly that dark ?
HS Thomas
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Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Will there be any followup on the alleged subject of this thread (e.g. explaining what you're talking about), or are you already abandoning that topic?

I'll amend the title to include the Dark Ages.
HS Thomas
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Is there a point to any of this?
Could be ! What's the point of an education when it's taxi drivers, bus attendants and people who wait on other people with gaps to fill who win Mastermind. Time and Time again. I assume it's the same in the US with the equivalent. Do you also get to see our host Magnus Magnusson ? ( I think it's someone else who hosts the show in the UK. Unless they cancelled the show. Too many of the under-educated were winning the show which threw doubt on the system of education.Against Professors at Cambridge and Oxford.
Asked questions like "what is the painting "La Gioconda" better known?" "Upon which city is the original game of Monopoly based?" "Whose portrait is on the reverse side of current Bank of England #50 notes?" From Magnus Magnusson, presenter of BBC's "Mastermind" for 25 years. Echoing the television show's classic twin formula of specialist subjects and general knowledge :-
Name three great things to come out of the Dark Ages .It could be an invention, a political event or a social event.
I am not saying there were any, BTW. But next time you get into a taxi ask the driver and you may be surprised.
[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Jeroen Wenting
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I thought France was?

That's what the French want you to believe... They're certainly the greatest bullies in the world.


42
Richard Hawkes
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Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
That's what the French want you to believe... They're certainly the greatest bullies in the world.
Do they give the world wedgies?
Steve Wink
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

And didn't Columbus discover America in the 15th century?

The Vikings had discovered it centuries earlier, and European fishermen had been fishing off Newfoundland for ages. They just didn't have such good PR!
HS Thomas
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In todays terms it would be like saying Bill Gates discovered Asia.
Joe Pluta
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I thought he did. Wasn't that Microsoft New World Explorer?
Joe
Mark Fletcher
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Originally posted by Tim Baker:
In the 15th century I managed to take back Hamburg from the Indians(led by Ghandi) and I ceded it back to Germany because I didn't want to fight a battle on two fronts.

Ah 15th Century "Civilization" style? I never cede territories unless the invaders start taking my territory back at which point I have to, to sue for peace.
Last time I was on Civ III, I wiped out the Germans and the Egyptians, I had full control of at least half the world by 2100.... I was working on wiping out the Americans when the Russians and French were about to jump in.
And then Civ III crashed and wiped my save.
Bah. Anyways its uninstalled and gone from my PC, soon to appear on Ebay.


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Mark Fletcher
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Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

That's what the French want you to believe... They're certainly the greatest bullies in the world.

Yeah I dont like France either, stole my lunch money once.
Sadanand Murthy
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Originally posted by Tonny Tssagovic:
These were the times where arabs introduced Algebra and Chemistry and translated phylo. books and "invented the zero" ...

Just to set the record straight - India introduced zero (Aryabhatta was the mathematician)


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Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

Just to set the record straight - India introduced zero (Aryabhatta was the mathematician)

So then is it fair to say that India gave us nothing?
Thomas Paul
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Here are some highlights of the 5th through 10th centuries. Since we are talking about Europe, the list is heavily Europe-centric.
5th Century
- Romans leave Britian
- Attila the Hun conquers large parts of Europe
- Alchemy developed
- Venice founded
- Western Roman Empire falls
- Rome sacked by the Visigoths
6th Century
- official beginning of the Dark Ages
- first animal powered paddle wheel boats
- Arthur, king of the Britons
- the plague strikes Europe
- Justinian smuggles silk worms from China
- Christianity spreads among barbarians
7th Century
- Barbarian invasions in Europe end
- First Bible picture books for illiterate
- Arles Cathedral built
- Saint Augustine writes his great works
- London founded
8th Century
- water wheels used to mill grain
- Spain conquered by the Arabs
- Charles Martel defeats Arab army invading France
- "Book of Kells" written
- Charlamagne unifies western Europe
- "Beowulf" is composed
9th Century
- Europe divided after death of Charlamagne
- Iceland settled
- Vikings attack Britian and Western Europe
- Hamburg destroyed by Vikings
- Rose trees in Europe
- "Iconclasts" persecute "image worshipers"
- Arabs conquer Sicily
- Crossbow invented
- polyphonic music developed
- Yiddish developed
- Orthodox/Roman Catholic split
- Greenland discovered
- Castles become seat of authority in Europe
10th Century
- Arabs expelled from Italy
- Vikings settle in France (Normans)
- medieval warm period begins (ends in 14th century)
- Vikings continue attacks on Ireland and England
- official end of the "Dark Ages"
- manufacturing of linens and woolens in Flanders
- Hospice of St. Bernard founded
- St. Mark's, Venice built
- musical notation developed
- St. Martin, Tours built
[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
HS Thomas
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I feel we are in the presence of Mastermind - probably part-time Taxi Driver
See, hardly the Dark Ages.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by HS Thomas:
See, hardly the Dark Ages.
This was a tough time for Europe. First the barbarians invaded. Then just when they stop, the Arabs invade. Then the Vikings invade. A lot of people talk about how Europe was so far behind the rest of the world. Well, who could blame the poor Europeans! They were constantly at war fighting off invaders.
To paraphrase the original question:
Ever wonder why nothing much appears to have happened in the Dark Ages?
Actually lots of things happened. It just wasn't many pleasant things.
Of course our lack of knowledge of history is the real culprit. Here's a quick quiz. Without looking it up, name 3 things that happened between 200 and 400 AD.
John Smith
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HS: Just looking for a recorded time when nothing much happened. I'm sure you have seen too many threads titled "Nothing much happened".
Reminds me of a typical small talk:
"Hey, what's up?"
"Nothing much. What's up?"
"Nothing much."
"Good."
"Yeah, it's good."
HS Thomas
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, Eugene.
Jeroen Wenting
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7th Century
- First Bible picture books for illiterate
- London founded

So the comic strip is one of the great achievements of the 7th century?
b.t.w. London was founded by the Romans as a city in or around the 1st century, and even they did not choose the site which was settled when they arrived.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Without looking it up, name 3 things that happened between 200 and 400 AD.

Too hard? I'll give you one... Emperor Constantine is baptized a Christian.
Chris Baron
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
- first animal powered paddle wheel boats
huh? first? how did it develop?
In the 15th century the most important invention of (at least) the last millenium was made.
Btw. <super-proud>In my hometown. See my sig </super-proud>.
cb
[ January 29, 2004: Message edited by: Chris Baron ]
HS Thomas
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Frankfurt.
The sausage ?
Mmm, between 200 and 400 AD ? Without looking it up, a timepiece, an improvement on wheel design, a weapon of mass destruction most likely would have been invented.
Looking it up, this was invented in 200 AD.

Astrolabe: Invented 200 AD

"The astrolabe, or "star grasper," was a very early handheld analog computer, a great advance in the ability to find and measure time. An astrolabe contains two models of the celestial sphere, the rete and the tympan, which can be used together to solve various problems of location and distance, as well as time. The astrolabe is based on the ingenious map made by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus about 150 BC. Hipparchus constructed his map by imagining a perpendicular line connecting each star to a point on a plane corresponding to the plane of the Earth's equator. The map preserved the angular relationships among the stars and made it possible to build celestial models like the rete and tympan. For centuries, though it had no timekeeping capacity of its own, the astrolabe helped in the construction of accurate time-measuring devices, such as sundials. The astrolabe itself never caught on as a popular timepiece, owing in part to the disapproval of Christian theologians who saw it as an instrument of the devil. An astrolabe is a set of movable plates that includes the rete, an openwork map showing the ecliptic, or path of the sun, and the brightest stars, and the tympan, an engraving of the principal coordinates of the celestial sphere, such as the horizon and the meridian. Measurements made in different latitudes required the use of different tympans. The alidade and rule were used to mark the altitudes of stars and to make readings from the scales engraved on the mater (backplate). First, a bright star's altitude is measured using the alidade and the altitude scale engraved on the back rim of the mater. Then, the rete is rotated until the mapped star lines up with the correct altitude marker on the tympan. If the star used is the Sun, the rete is rotated until the correct date on the ecliptic is aligned with the altitude marker. The rule is then used to read the time from the rim of the mater."
Wheels were invented in Sumeria around 4000-3500 BC and independently in China 2800BC.
The wheelbarrow was invented in China 100AD but made it into Europe in the
13th Century with a leap of improvement in design.
[ January 30, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Mani Ram
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Originally posted by Chris Baron:

Mainz? Printing Press??


Mani
Quaerendo Invenietis
HS Thomas
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Interesting and around the period 200 AD - 400 AD.
"a Roman odometer, to measure the distance travelled along a road. Each time the four-foot wheel turned, it engaged once with a cogwheel carrying 400 teeth. This meant that the big cogwheel rotated exactly once every Roman mile, and at this point a small stone - a calculus - dropped into a box. So at the end of the trip count the calculi and you know how many miles you have covered!
I am amazed at how efficient the Romans were as engineers and organisers. They were not brilliant innovators, and in the 400 years that they occupied Britain they failed to make many technological advances. However, the might of the Roman empire stemmed from the brilliant use they made of the technology they brought with them. And for me, pride of place among the technology must go to that waterwheel at Dolaucothi and those latrines on Hadrian's Wall."
The last must be the WMD - why else have them along Hadrians Wall to keep the Picts out.
The Roman waterwheel at Dolaucothi in Wales
[ January 30, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Chris Baron
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Originally posted by Mani Ram:

Mainz? Printing Press??

Yip
The chinese invented it first, but each book you read was made with an technique that can be directly linked to Johannes Gutenberg from Mainz.
cb
HS Thomas
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Biochemical Weapons

2002-2000 | 1999-1980 | 1979-1920 | 1919-200 BC
1916
UK sets up secret chemical weapons testing centre at Porton Down, Wiltshire
During the 1910s
Chlorine, phosgene and mustard gas used during WWI
1767
French-Indian War, America: British troops are said to give smallpox-infected blankets to American Indians fighting for the French
1346
Tartars dump plague-infested bodies over the city walls of Kaffa; fleeing inhabitants spread the Black Death to Europe
200 BC - 200 AD (approx)
Roman soldiers use animal carcasses to poison their enemies' water supply

There you have it , WMDs in the 200's.
 
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subject: 14th and 15th Centuries - not the Darkest Ages