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French ministers back scarf ban

Joe King
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Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3437133.stm
So, what do you think? This seems to be a fairly complex issue.
Arguments for:
* Religion has no place in the school, other than for pupils to be taught about other religions. Teachers should not encourage one religion over another
* The headscarf may go against a school's uniform, and nobody should be exempt from the rules because of their religion.
* It doesn't actually say in the Koran that women should wear a headscarf, so its just a cultural thing.
Arguments against:
* A ban on religious items goes against a person's human rights to worship.
* It will increase tensions between the muslim and french communities
Any other arguments for and against?
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
remember that this is NOT a ban on scarfs per se, but a ban on publicly showing religious affiliation in schools and the workplace.
Jews are not allowed to wear their traditional headdress either, and Christians are no longer allowed to openly wear a crucifix or rosary.
In a secular state such displays have no place in classrooms and in government offices, especially among the staff (and IMO in a secular state anything that attempts to separate out yourself based on religion should be frowned upon).
Worship is fine, but doing so openly in a classroom means forcing your religion upon others who may not want it.
Many schools and offices have places set aside where people can have privacy if they want it, be it a personal office or a dedicated room for worship.
We've seen a striking example of the reverse here last year:
A Sikh boy arrives at school carrying a 20cm (at least) long ceremonial dagger he had gotten during his coming of age ceremony (or some such) the night before.
When the school told him to hand it over (it was not only against school rules but against the law to carry such a weapon) he got violent and was expelled.
The father accused the school of racism and restricting religious freedom of Sikh people by banning their ceremonial weapons (which, I repeat, are against the law here as they exceed the legal maximum size for blades that people may carry outside the home).
Luckily a court struck down the charge, this time...


42
Frank Silbermann
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Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1386
Most Orthodox Jewish women cover their hair after marriage. Some do so by wearing wigs. Maybe Muslim schoolgirls could do that. (Jewish boys could wear toupees.)
The really difficult part will be for Jewish and Muslim boys in the shower after gym. What are they going to do about circumcision?
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff

Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:

The really difficult part will be for Jewish and Muslim boys in the shower after gym. What are they going to do about circumcision?


lol...


Java Regular Expressions
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
"This is putting a comic face on a very serious issue." French Socialist Party Deputy Julien Dray on Education Ministers Luc Ferry's remark that the proposed ban on Islamic headscarvesin state schools might also apply to beards if they were also judged to be a symbol of faith.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Individuals have a right to express themselves as long as they are not infringing on others. Nobody is infringed upon by an individual wearing a beard, crucifix, head scarf, or whatever. On the contrary, the French laws are what infringe on others. This is government going in a place it has no business to being in.
My original understanding of the French law was that its purpose was to fight the oppression faced by many Islamic women, who they felt are forced in many cases to wear the head scarf. Of course they could never point the finger at a single religion, so they take it up a notch and ban anything that might be interpreted as religious.
I can only hope that the ridiculous lengths the French are going to in the name of secularity never make much inroads in this country.
Ernest Friedman-Hill
author and iconoclast
Marshal

Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 24183
    
  34

My initial reaction to this was that some people wear such garments in the same way that other wear a pair of pants: they feel strongly, due to their upbringing, that some part or another of their body must be covered. To force them to divest themselves of these garments is to force them to partially disrobe.
Thus, my amendment to the law, which would put everyone, regardless of creed, on equal footing, would be as follows: clothing of every stripe is hereby banned in all public buildings in France. You want to see the mayor, you have to strip butt naked at the door.


[Jess in Action][AskingGoodQuestions]
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
A ban on religious items goes against a person's human rights to worship.
I think, this is foolish argument.
No one is stoping one from practising the religion you want. You practice it where it is suppose to be practice, not at the place of teaching.
Will they not remove their headscarf in front of doctor or at operation table ??? At that time where is religion ??
And I also think, banning is extreme step and should be avoided.
The law, that no school will promote any specific religion is more than enough to have proper and meaningful teaching.
Anything which will be forced, will be oppposed.
[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
There was an interesting article in the guardian recently about this which came out against it - questioned how "voluntary" the wearing of scarves etc was by young girls in France.
Something I've wondered for a long time - why do so many religions dictate in often very harsh terms what women can/can't do - and why are those doing the dictating always men? I have a young daughter myself and wonder is this really what people want for their daughters, sisters, aunts etc....


"....bigmouth strikes again, and I've got no right to take my place with the human race...."<p>SCJP 1.4
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
It's to offer a measure of protection against Big Bad Wolves. Remember the moral of Little Red Riding Hood. It wasn't the law that came to the rescue. Western women are well advised to wear scarves in certain places - it's the law of the land. Perhaps the French think scarf wearers don't think they are sufficiently protected. In the 19th century in the West women used to cover their heads - what made them stop? The law ?
Suffragettes ? To get equal voting rights ( still no equal pay though)
[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Klanswomen wore the hood to remove all feminity (and all humanity).
With more trans-sexuals obscuring gender why should scarves be singled out ?
:roll:
[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by R K Singh:
No one is stoping one from practising the religion you want. You practice it where it is suppose to be practice, not at the place of teaching.
A person practices their religion everywhere not just in Church.


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Abbu Rahman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 46
Don't know much about French Govt. issue ,
but was intrested in clearing some points here .... in best sprits

Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
...questioned how "voluntary" the wearing of scarves etc was by young girls in France.

so the problem is "voluntary" :
now...
how many young girls in France go to school "voluntary" ??
how many young girls in France stop video games and do homework "voluntary" ??
how many young girls in France refuse alcohol "voluntary" ??
my guess is not many,
the point is that the manners being taught here (by parents) are not of intrest to "the guardian" hence an " interesting article "

...... what women can/can't do - and why are those doing the dictating always men?...........

so the problem is "men dictating women" :
although this is what many (muslim) men think , but lets see who is dictating and who is being dictated :
Quran (holy book of muslims / like Bible)
Surah Nur, Ch. No. 24, Verse No. 30,
"...He should lower his gaze and guard his modesty"
"...she should lower her gaze and guard her modesty and display not her beauty, except what is that necessary of, and to draw a head covering over her bosom..."

so its clear that not men but its someone else who is "dictating" both and HE is "dictating" to only those who wish to be dictated .
the real problem with intellectual++ people is that they take BBC/CCN perception too seriously without doing any fact finding .
hope that helps
Peace be with you.
[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: Abdul Rafay Mansoor ]
[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: Abdul Rafay Mansoor ]
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Get real! The reason head scraf or burka were needed in the past for women was that MEN WERE TOO MEAN. My thinking is that covering the face was just one simple (but totally wrong) way to protect them.
Even today in most of the third world countries, life for women is tough. People have already crossed the limits eve-teasing. If you are a women and if you wear even a little bit western clothes and if you walk on the street, the whole mankind will have their eyes on you. People will start whistling. If you are on the bus, people will try to rub against you. That's what happens in these countries (unfortunately India is also one of them). It is a fact.
The solution is NOT head scraf. The solution is to fix attitudes. Unfortunately when something gets into a religious book, nobody thinks rationally. Just think about if from a woman's point of view. Why the hell should she have to cover her face???
I am not saying there should be a law NOT to cover the face but there should be NO law in this matter at all. Instead, there should be law (and strict enforcement of the law) to protect the freedom of women. Once you fix it, over the period of time the whole scraf issue will be moot.
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
If you read my post carefully you will see I am making the point that almost all religions dictate a list of things that women should/shouldn't do - and the authority figures in those religions seem to always be men.

Coincidence? You tell me.....
Abbu Rahman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 46
Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
Get real!.....MEN WERE TOO MEAN.....
Even today in most of the third world countries, life for women is tough. People have already crossed the limits eve-teasing. If you are a women and if you wear even a little bit western clothes and if you walk on the street, the whole mankind will have their eyes on you. People will start whistling. If you are on the bus, people will try to rub against you. That's what happens in these countries (unfortunately India

INDIA
leave my India alone, an instant example in the non-3rd world

Just think about if from a woman's point of view. Why the hell should she have to cover her face???

when you see women protesting on streets for scarf you say "voluntary" ???
when you see men arguing for scarf you say "women's point of view"???
Peace be with you.
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Abdul Rafay Mansoor:

when you see women protesting on streets for scarf you say "voluntary" ???
when you see men arguing for scarf you say "women's point of view"???
Peace be with you.

What are you trying to say? can you be more clear please?
Abbu Rahman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 46
Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

What are you trying to say? can you be more clear please?

I am very clear ,
Read Post # 9 then
Read Post # 13 then
Read Post # 14 then
Read Post # 16
Hope that helps
Rafay.
Abbu Rahman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 46
Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
If you read my post carefully you will see I am making the point that almost all religions dictate a list of things that women should/shouldn't do - and the authority figures in those religions seem to always be men
Coincidence? You tell me.....

Yes, I was talking about what I know .. rest I have not read .
and i think the context here was muslim_women/scarf.
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Abdul Rafay Mansoor:

I am very clear ,
Read Post # 9 then
Read Post # 13 then
Read Post # 14 then
Read Post # 16
Hope that helps
Rafay.

I don't understand what is your point. If you want to wear scraf, wear it. If you want to force your daughter/sister/wife to wear scraf then force them. It is your personal choice.
My point is that there is no need for any law on it. The law should curb the problem because of which the scraf was required in the first place.
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Abdul Rafay Mansoor:

I am very clear ,
Read Post # 9 then
Read Post # 13 then
Read Post # 14 then
Read Post # 16
Hope that helps
Rafay.

Please do not "justify" the practice by giving illogical arguments. There are tons of religiious practices for which there is no logic. But people still practice them. Scraf is one such idiotic thing.
There might have been a need for it once upon a time and there might even be a need for it now but it is a wrong solution to the problem.
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
I said almost all religions. I am just asking why the authority figures are always male, telling women what they ought to do.
I suspect many religions do not like or respect women and even fear them.
Once again I am referring to almost all organised religions.
"Women is born free, but everywhere she is in chains"
I repeat - is this what we want for our mothers, daughters, sisters?
Abbu Rahman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 46
Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

.... force your daughter/sister/wife to wear scraf then force them.......

Thanks for the advice.
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
I said almost all religions. I am just asking why the authority figures are always male, telling women what they ought to do.
I suspect many religions do not like or respect women and even fear them.
Once again I am referring to almost all organised religions.
"Women is born free, but everywhere she is in chains"
I repeat - is this what we want for our mothers, daughters, sisters?

Your observation is correct. It has always been men who have decided what women should do or not do. It has to change.
In fact, not "almost all" religions but ALL religions. Show me one religion which has a women as its head. Show me one religion that was started by a women. Show me one religion that allows a woman to dictate to men.
You will not find a single one.
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
I can't speak for budhism which I know nothing about, but definitely all of the common and most well known religions seem to fear women at some deep level.
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
Guardian article:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1128476,00.html
Abbu Rahman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 46
Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

Please do not "justify" the practice by giving illogical arguments....

Dear Mr.Tojay,
in almost every post here I have give explanation, Text, Link and logic.. now if you think this is some Yahoo forum where you can gangup and bash , then fine .
I thought Ranchers are thinking people.
Peace be with you.
Falana Dhimkana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 38
I have to say that French are really going down a very slippery road with this logic. What if a student decided wearing a yellow shirt is part of his/her religion? Are they going to ban that? What are they going to do next? Make every student wear a silver jumpsuit?
Have the french lost all common sense? I wonder if there are any french ranchers who can contribute here.
Damien Howard
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 01, 2003
Posts: 456
I am just asking why the authority figures are always male, telling women what they ought to do.

The answer to this is so simple (no offense intended).
Men have always made up these religions, hence men always make the rules and subjugate women. If a woman had ever been allowed to make up a religion it might be different. Why are men always making up the religions? Well because usually they are stronger than most women.
Richard Hawkes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
Originally posted by Damien Howard:
Why are men always making up the religions?
Because God made man first!
Damien Howard
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 01, 2003
Posts: 456
Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
Originally posted by Damien Howard:
[qb]Why are men always making up the religions?
Because God made man first![/QB]

You see, another example of a man making things up
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by R K Singh:
A ban on religious items goes against a person's human rights to worship.
I think, this is foolish argument.
No one is stoping one from practising the religion you want. You practice it where it is suppose to be practice, not at the place of teaching.
Will they not remove their headscarf in front of doctor or at operation table ??? At that time where is religion ??

Check the footage shot in Iran after the latest earthquake.
Women patients were wearing scarves while in hospital beds, even foreigners.
It's LAW there that women MUST cover their heads at all times when they can be seen by men (which includes remotely such as on television or photographs).
Yes, they would likely wear a scarve on the operating table (unless probably when it's for brainsurgery, which would present an interesting problem with medical necessity conflicting with the law).
Joe King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
I've never quite understood why people think that they should wear something for religious reasons. Do they think that something that created the entire universe is going to condem them to hell for not wearing a hat/scarf/cross etc?
The reason why women are oppressed by many religions is because the religious books were written by men in an era when it was commanly thought that women were inferior beings. Like someone said above, once people start treating what some farmer wrote in a book thousands of years ago as being a list of instructions from above on how to live our life, all logic has flown out of the window. Mind you, you have to be fairly illogical to be religious in the first place
Abbu Rahman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 46
Originally posted by Joe King:
I've never quite understood why people think that they should wear something for religious reasons. Do they think that something that created the entire universe is going to condem them to hell for not wearing a hat/scarf/cross etc?


again, its your perception about the religion
("scarf" religion to be specific ) that is wrong and you have developed it not by research or reading but by sitting before the idiotbox with remote in right hand and popcorn in left (vice versa also possible).
"something that created the entire universe" has given these simple guide lines to uphold modesty/diginity/trust among us and people of I/me/myself
cult have unknowing benefited from this setup.
Thinking / Debating / Reasoning has always been boring ,
mockery & slandering is always enjoyable

.......women are oppressed by many religions.......

club them all and bash!

......... written by men in an era....

make assumptions and then proclamations.

..... some farmer wrote in a book thousands of years ago....

"sex Up" things and bang bang bang !!!

Peace be with you.
[ January 29, 2004: Message edited by: Abdul Rafay Mansoor ]
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Abdul Rafay Mansoor:
something that created the entire universe" has given these simple guide lines to uphold modesty/diginity/trust among us and people of I/me/myself
cult have unknowing benefited from this setup.

Wearing a scarf upholds modesty , dignity and trust??? Ok!! That makes a lot of sense. :roll:
again, its your perception about the religion
("scarf" religion to be specific ) that is wrong and you have developed it not by research or reading but by sitting before the idiotbox with remote in right hand and popcorn in left (vice versa also possible).

What if I were to tell you that I have formed an opinion about the scarf religion not by watching TV, listening to radio or concocted dreams but by interacting with people of that religion and by reading material that forms the basis of that religion and by question those who practise the very religion?? Would you then agree that I have made a fair judgement???


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Joe King:
I've never quite understood why people think that they should wear something for religious reasons. Do they think that something that created the entire universe is going to condem them to hell for not wearing a hat/scarf/cross etc?
Do you think that the only way mankind should interact with their creator is through fear? Haven't you ever done anything for your parents because you knew it would please them?
Abbu Rahman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 46
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Wearing a scarf upholds modesty , dignity and trust??? Ok!! That makes a lot of sense.

clothes/covering = sign of diginity/modesty for me
clothes/covering = unnecessary burden/rituals for :roll:
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

What if I were to tell you that I have formed an opinion about the scarf religion not by watching TV, listening to radio or concocted dreams but by
interacting with people of that religion and by reading material that forms the basis of that religion and by question those who practise the very religion?? Would you then agree that I have made a fair judgement???

IF someone has interacted with people/Read book/..
then he would not post some of the rubbish you see above.
Peace be with you.
[ January 29, 2004: Message edited by: Abdul Rafay Mansoor ]
[ January 29, 2004: Message edited by: Abdul Rafay Mansoor ]
Falana Dhimkana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 38
Guys,
Aren't we all missing the big picture? I don't think this is about religion/headscarf. I think it really reflects on the stupidity of french govt! The whole west gets mad at middle-eastern regimes for enforcing dress codes. Now, isn't the french govt ban on religious items as fanatic as the Iranian enforcement of scarf?
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Falana Dhimkana:
Now, isn't the french govt ban on religious items as fanatic as the Iranian enforcement of scarf?

Well, I don't think the French are at the point yet where they're going to beat people for wearing religious garb of any type, but otherwise it's probably not a stretch to view it as a similar comparison.
Eleison Zeitgeist
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 115
secularism and religion is incompatible w/ some or most religions. I say get rid of the scarf or stayhome and become uneducated (but keep your religion); it's up to the individual.
Amish people have tried to "keep" there religion. Many other groups of people have tried to keep their religion. Most of these people have suffered. As a matter of fact, the number of Amish people have been dimensing (sic).
Truth be told, there are some stupid ideas in the world... some of it has to do with religion. If one value one's religion so much, then so be it. Don't expect people to bend over backwards to accomidate.
Having symbols that refect division (esp religions division) is dangerous. Throughout history, mankind has suffered greatly due to this type of division....
If muslims do not like how the majority of the French people react to scarfs. They should move to where other people will appreciate their wearing of scarfs. It seems to me, French society was built on secularism. If you don't like the society don't move there (most muslims are recent imigrants). Don't get me wrong... if there is something that needs to be changed, change it. However, secularism (a major component of French society)has brought France soo far -- it's intrinsic to the society..
YMMV
-Eleison
 
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