Win a copy of Mesos in Action this week in the Cloud/Virtualizaton forum!
  • Post Reply
  • Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic

Euthanasia

 
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
How many here think that euthanasia, the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals, as persons or domestic animals, in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy, should be available for the asking either through Medicare and/or via private practice?
I think it should be available for humans not only for the terminally ill but for the casually bored with life.
OK, that last one was a poor intent at humor in an otherwise very serious matter but...
There are times when someone's quality of life has degraded to the point that not even they would like to go on.
Why should the state make it difficult (as in illegal) to help someone get out of their misery?
Please avoid religiously based arguments since I am asking about the laws in my country (USA) and also there is no proof that 'god' exists. Stick to facts.
 
Tim Baker
Ranch Hand
Posts: 541
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm all in favour of it, as long as some kind of judicial review is carried out on each case.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5384
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If there is no medical treatment available for that and with consent of person, I think it should be legal.
But the law has to take care of lot of things.
Dr Hawkins who had paralysis attack at very early age and Doctor declared that he wont be able to live more than age of 30 yrs. But he is still alive at the age 50+.
What if mercy death was legal at that time and Hawkins would have chosen that ???
No .. I think Govt. should encourage them to live by providing proper facilities to them and should provide a easy & painless way for them to have a natural death.
 
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am weary of considering "judicial review"... That implies that someone else but the principal in this matter would make the decision.
I forgot to state (sorry for that omission) that THE person involved would be making the final decision.
As for the example of Steven Hawking, he has always been capable of choosing life versus death.
He voluntarily chose life. Good for him, but even better good for us as humans!
My post was about DEATH FOR THE ASKING being legal.
This is important because many people who would want to terminate their lives may need the assistance of another person. For example they may not be able to take pills or anything else without assistance. They may be (for example) paralyzed, 100% dependent on other people and all they want is to cease existing.
My position is that if it can be established by a court of law, probably via a video recording that has been authenticated by competent technicians, or better still, in person, then the dying assistance should be legal and no one should be prosecuted for assisting it.
 
John Smith
Ranch Hand
Posts: 2937
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I don't think the MD contingent has changed much since the last time we've discussed it.
But the environment did change, -- the congress recently passed a law that allows the government to charge a killer with double murder if the victim happened to be pregnant. How does this tie to euthanasia? Well, if a pregnant woman attempts to commit suicide, but she survives while the fetus dies, can she be charged with murder under the new law?
 
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think euthanasia should be allowed, including the assisted kind.
Since this is supposed to be a free country, if someone wants to end their life out of their own free will, then the state has no authority to say one way or the other.
Life belongs exclusively to the holder of it and not to 'god' or much less the state.
And even for those who believe in god and claim that life is a gift from god, then if it's a gift, it belongs to the receiver of the gift and not the giver. Unless god is an "indian giver"!
And by the way, almost three year old threads don't count. Anything older than a year here is ancient history.
Except my own posts, that is...
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
Life belongs exclusively to the holder of it and not to 'god' or much less the state.

Not quite true. In the case of a pregnant woman for example, I believe the state asserts its duty to protect the unborn child over the mother's wishes in some instances.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
And how do we know if the person isn't just suffering from a temporary depression due to their condition?
Euthanasia is common in some countries in Europe where it is used as an excuse to murder those who can't speak for themselves. I would rather live in a nation that respects life than one that thinks people should be treated like an animal.
 
Tim Baker
Ranch Hand
Posts: 541
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And how do we know if the person isn't just suffering from a temporary depression due to their condition?
Euthanasia is common in some countries in Europe where it is used as an excuse to murder those who can't speak for themselves. I would rather live in a nation that respects life than one that thinks people should be treated like an animal.

Easily, you don't make a snap decision. The procedure most people would have in mind would take months to complete and temporary depression could be easily spotted.
And no murder is not widespread in Europe using Euthanasia. Even in countries where it is allowed it is not common by any stretch of the immagination.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Tim Baker:
And no murder is not widespread in Europe using Euthanasia. Even in countries where it is allowed it is not common by any stretch of the immagination.

Take a look at what is going on in Holland. At least of 1/3 of the people euthanized did not request it. In some cases, those who were euthanized had specifically stated that they did not want to be euthanized.
 
frank davis
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1479
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
Stick to facts.


Are any facts acceptable or just facts officially sanctioned by the currently reigning paradigm?
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
Since this is supposed to be a free country, if someone wants to end their life out of their own free will, then the state has no authority to say one way or the other.
I'm not sure what this "free country" is supposed to mean. it is quite obvoiuos that the US is nit a "free country". Just try to sell heroin to a police oficer and see if the US is a "free country".
As far as the rest of your statement, it sounds like you are talking about suicide, not euthanasia. If your life belogs to you then you can terminate it, is your claim. Fine, then stick your head in the oven and be done with it but don't ask someone else to end it for you.
 
Tim Baker
Ranch Hand
Posts: 541
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Take a look at what is going on in Holland. At least of 1/3 of the people euthanized did not request it. In some cases, those who were euthanized had specifically stated that they did not want to be euthanized.

It would seem to be the case that infact it is not legal Euthanasia in Holland unless it is voluntary.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Tim Baker:
It would seem to be the case that infact it is not legal Euthanasia in Holland unless it is voluntary.

And how many doctors have been prosecuted for euthanasia when it was not requested by the patient? None. Holland has slid down the slippery slope to doctors deciding whether a patient has sufficient quality of life no matter what the patient's wishes are.
 
Tim Baker
Ranch Hand
Posts: 541
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

And how many doctors have been prosecuted for euthanasia when it was not requested by the patient? None. Holland has slid down the slippery slope to doctors deciding whether a patient has sufficient quality of life no matter what the patient's wishes are.

I seriously doubt that. Infact none of my dutch friends think that is the case.
 
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5093
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I never heard of ANY case of euthanasia here against the wishes of the patient.
Had a doctor carried out euthanasia without consent he'd have been immediately arrested on murder charges and it would have made the press with huge headlines.
There have been cases where the patient wanted euthanasia but the family (next of kin) did not. Doctors have carried out the euthanasia in those cases as they should.
The 1/3 figure you mention is probably the roughly 1/3 of cases that would technically constitute euthanasia that are never reported as such.
Cases where doctors give terminal patients lethal doses of pain medication for example because any non-lethal dose would be ineffective (with permission from the patient of course) are often not reported for example.
In these cases the lethal dose makes the last hours on earth of the patient at least bearable rather than being in constant pain for the rest of their (artificially prolonged) lifes which a lower dose would cause.
 
Joe King
Ranch Hand
Posts: 820
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And how do we know if the person isn't just suffering from a temporary depression due to their condition?

This is probably the most important issue here. I suppose the ideal situation would be for there to be some kind of psychological analysis done at the point when a person declares their intention to be "euthanised".

I would rather live in a nation that respects life than one that thinks people should be treated like an animal.

Ooooh its so tempting to mention Guantanamo
 
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5093
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

I would rather live in a nation that respects life than one that thinks people should be treated like an animal.

Indeed. Therefore humans should have a right to choose life or death...
Of course if people were to behave like humans once in a while others might be reminded that they're not animals.
In fact, I've met non-human animals that were better people than many humans.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
I never heard of ANY case of euthanasia here against the wishes of the patient.
Keeping your head in the sand?
http://www.fumento.com/dutch.html
http://www.hospicecare.com/Ethics/pollard2.htm
When people can't trust that their doctor won't kill them then people will stop seeing doctors.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Joe King:
Ooooh its so tempting to mention Guantanamo
In what way are the prisoners there being treated like animals?
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I watched a documentary about a woman whose son was dying a very painful death. He begged her to kill him to stop his pain. One day she gave up and killed him. In happened in one of our Baltic respublics. She was put in jail, I don't know what happened to her later. The whole story stroke me as a manifestation of an utter absurdity. A society pretends that it can (and need!) to punish a woman who had to kill her son!
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
I watched a documentary about a woman whose son was dying a very painful death. He begged her to kill him to stop his pain. One day she gave up and killed him. In happened in one of our Baltic respublics. She was put in jail, I don't know what happened to her later. The whole story stroke me as a manifestation of an utter absurdity. A society pretends that it can (and need!) to punish a woman who had to kill her son!

How do we know that the son was actually begging her to stop the pain? And why wasn't he given medication?
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
How do we know that the son was actually begging her to stop the pain? And why wasn't he given medication?
Tom, I don't know. I watched my relative dying from cancer. Drags didn't help her. But she wanted to live. I think when people ask to kill them they are really desperate.
 
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
"Fine, then stick your head in the oven and be done with it but don't ask someone else to end it for you."
Duh!
But what if I'm like Stephen Hawking and I can't do it myself, but I can communicate to others that I want to die? (Like he communicates math formulas to others?)
THAT'S what I was arguing for; a place where you can go and have it done SINCE YOU CAN'T DO IT YOURSELF!
Paid by Medicare if you can't afford it.
More
Soylent Green!! Yess!!
 
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5093
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

When people can't trust that their doctor won't kill them then people will stop seeing doctors.

We don't need euthanasia for that...
There's so many medical errors here that people are afraid to go to the doctor because they're likely to be worse off afterwards.
I almost lost both my parents due to medical errors in 2002. My mother spent a year in hospital and lost her foot due to errors in a procedure that didn't even involve that foot after which she should have been home within 2 weeks, my father had a heart attack as a result of all that and got given the wrong medication on being released from (another) hospital.
Instead of medication to reduce his bloodpressure they gave him medication to increase it. Had he not noticed and taken the stuff prescribed his heart would have exploded.
And that's not the first time for us to see such things close up...
 
Tim Baker
Ranch Hand
Posts: 541
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
"Fine, then stick your head in the oven and be done with it but don't ask someone else to end it for you."
Duh!
But what if I'm like Stephen Hawking and I can't do it myself, but I can communicate to others that I want to die? (Like he communicates math formulas to others?)
THAT'S what I was arguing for; a place where you can go and have it done SINCE YOU CAN'T DO IT YOURSELF!
Paid by Medicare if you can't afford it.
More
Soylent Green!! Yess!!

He could still do it himself, since he can operate that speaking machine. He just needs someone to setup a machine that will administer a leathal dose to him. So he only needs assistance. If you could only communicate by blinking or something then yes it becomes a lot harder.
 
  • Post Reply
  • Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic