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Affirmative Action

HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
What does it mean ?
How can it be adopted in places like Africa where people live on 65 pence a day and 44 million children cannot attend school ?
Richard Hawkes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
What does it mean ?
How can it be adopted in places like Africa where people live on 65 pence a day and 44 million children cannot attend school ?
Now I know you're just trying to see how many threads get closed. I almost believed your story about you watching that abortion documentary

Oh its back...
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Richard Hawkes ]
gone again?
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Richard Hawkes ]
Thread fight !
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Richard Hawkes ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:

Now I know you're just trying to see how many threads get closed. I almost believed your story about you watching that abortion documentary

Don't know what yo mean ! Discussion on the documentary frame by frame in the Pro Choice thread! (Swords at dawn) Actually I'm busy today and tomorrow. The Open University looks like it's finally getting it's act together.
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Richard Hawkes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
What does it mean ?
How can it be adopted in places like Africa where people live on 65 pence a day and 44 million children cannot attend school ?
I guess they would give less fortunate people or those likely to be discriminated against more opportunities. That's the theory behind it in a nutshell.
Why do you ask anyway?
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
[qb]What does it mean ?
How can it be adopted in places like Africa where people live on 65 pence a day and 44 million children cannot attend school ?
I guess they would give less fortunate people or those likely to be discriminated against more opportunities. That's the theory behind it in a nutshell.
Why do you ask anyway?[/QB]

Well, people always refer to Affirmative Action / Equal Opportunities slightly condescendingly , and with no small amount of denigration which I am sure it does not deserve.
In the UK it's referred to as Equal Opportunities. Brazil with one of the world's most diverse societies is starting Affirmative Action at full-throttle.
With new EU immigrants into the UK there are concerns that ordinary family immigrants are a bit fearful about looking for work and will be sucked into living on benefits for ever. Not a good situation.
Tony Blair has always voiced concerns about the situation in Africa as being a blight on the consious of the world. Africa is the only continent to have got poorer in the last decade.
There's Human Rights from which stems Affirmative Action or Equal Opportunities.
Is there any world society / civilisation that can claim to have got it right ?
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Richard Hawkes
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Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
US Affirmative Action is like UK Positive Discrimination. A lot of people would argue that neither could be classed as 'equal opportunities'
They are designed to tilt the balance in favour of minorities, the idea being that sometime in the future when minority populations are represented fairly and occupy an appropriate proportion of of all walks of life (and not just the poorer sections) and we're having regular holidays on Mars, these policies can be lifted.
I don't have any info on how effective it is, I guess it depends on how its implemented. For example a university may be given a quota for eg, the student intake must match the demographics of the local population, which in turn means that some well qualified m/c white person might be refused a place. This can rightly cause resentment in the rejectee as does the fact that someone from a minority group may be assumed not to have worked as hard to get a place in university. It must be quite frustrating to get so far and then people question your ability.
However I also believe in social theories about poverty traps and poverty cycles and can't see how else these can be avoided aside from giving a few generations of people opportunities they might never have had, even at the expense of a wider population. If it works, society should be more balanced and better, maybe, for it. My gut reaction is that its far too early too condemn it or claim success.
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Richard Hawkes ]
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:

However I also believe in social theories about poverty traps and poverty cycles and can't see how else these can be avoided aside from giving a few generations of people opportunities they might never have had, even at the expense of a wider population. If it works, society should be more balanced and better, maybe, for it. My gut reaction is that its far too early too condemn it or claim success.

Could that be what off-shoring is all about ? Affirmative Action ?
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Affirmative action is discrimination against Caucasians ...
[Do you want to rephrase that so it's less likely to start up a shitstorm?
Thanks,
M -MH]
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

42
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
In Brazil, whenever the government officionados started discussions on Affirmative Action the people as a whole yelled "Racism". But now apparently they are actually sitting down to listen and the government is beginning to get somewhere with the various programmes.
Where would the West stand without public transport, school dinners,
municipal orchestras, public libraries, parking. And public toilets.
Or are issues being confused here and these aren't a product of Affirmative Action ?
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
George Custer
Greenhorn

Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 3
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Affirmative action is discrimination against Caucasians ...

[political side swipe removed-MH]
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
George Custer
Greenhorn

Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 3
[political side swipe removed-MH]
Rather than point out in any flaws in the analogy I made, I was simply censored.
Why not just completely close down the debate on certain topics. It seems that one side of the debate is being presented very unequally due to the censorship. I think we've gone way overboard on this censorship; I did not attack any person or group with my reply and it was certainly on topic without being obscene or outside the boundaries of normal discussion.
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ][/qb]
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: George Custer ]
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: George Custer ]
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
"George", this doesn't seem to be your first visit here, and so I suspect you've seen previous discussion about our display name policy. Please edit your display name to something that isn't obviously fictitious. Thanks.


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff

Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
Originally posted by George Custer:
[political side swipe removed-MH]
Rather than point out in any flaws in the analogy I made, I was simply censored.
Why not just completely close down the debate on certain topics. It seems that one side of the debate is being presented very unequally due to the censorship. I think we've gone way overboard on this censorship; I did not attack any person or group with my reply and it was certainly on topic without being obscene or outside the boundaries of normal discussion.
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: George Custer ]
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: George Custer ][/QB]
"George",
I don't really think I need to tell you what's wrong with a post that compares affirmative action to theft and murder. bottom line: Md is no longer a political forum. It tolerates political discussion, so long as they're civil, polite, and 'nice'. I felt that your post wasn't 'nice', so I deleted it.
If you want to follow up on this publicly, please take it the Javaranch forum.
Thanks,
M


Java Regular Expressions
Warren Dew
blacksmith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 1332
    
    2
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Where would the West stand without public transport, school dinners,
municipal orchestras, public libraries, parking. And public toilets.
Or are issues being confused here and these aren't a product of Affirmative Action ?

Is this question serious? In case it is, they have nothing to do with affirmative action.
I'll see if I can explain without overstepping the bounds of the current politically correct MD climate.
In the U.S., "equal opportunity employment" usually means that selection is made purely based on qualifications, without regard to unrelated factors like race or ethnic background.
In contrast, "affirmative action" means that preference is given to members of certain minority groups, even if they are less well qualified than members of other groups. Just which groups varies; at present, for example, employment programs still tend to discriminate in favor of asians, but university enrollment programs almost uniformly discriminate against them.
One of the most pernicious effects of affirmative action is that far from alleviating the underlying prejudices, it tends to exacerbate them; favorable treatment of blacks, for example, not only tends to reinforce certain whites' belief that the blacks couldn't make it on their own without the help, but has also fooled many blacks into believing that as well.
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Warren Dew ]
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Warren Dew:

Is this question serious? In case it is, they have nothing to do with affirmative action.

The question didn't start out serious but I think it is now. Affirmative Action in the Victorian era is what that list covers. The library at Alexandria, Egypt was famous in it's time. And I've come across many a British public library started in the Victorian era across the globe.
Why should Affirmative Action have anything to do with Race ? It should be structured so that those who can afford it don't get grants and those that can't, do. Of course one should hope that people do not bend the rules and by and large they don't in the UK.
Recently driving in the school rush hour which happens an hour after the normal commute I was struck by just how diverse Britain is now.
Thanks, Warren. Your response did answer my question. Affirmative Action should be a natural response from tax-payers. There may be less waste of tax money.
Bureaucracy and accountability is the other side of the coin.
[ May 05, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Richard Hawkes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
Your list HS, contains examples of positive discrimination based on economics rather than race.
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Could that be what off-shoring is all about ? Affirmative Action ?
I seriously doubt that! Off-shoring is about saving money, not helping the economically less fortunate, although it will have that effect in places like India, China etc. Interesting take though - off-shoring as a form of charity. Maybe Oxfam should outsource all its administration to poor African countries instead of old ladies and students
Marc Peabody
pie sneak
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Posts: 4727

Well, Affirmative Action is when [ May 06, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ] but then the liberalists say [ May 06, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
Personally, [ May 06, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ] but what do I know?
If I had the chance to [ May 06, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ] I wouldn't have to [ May 06, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
So, in conclusion, [ May 06, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
I hope I was able to make myself clear. Thank you for being openminded enough to hear my point of view.


A good workman is known by his tools.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
You're welcome.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
Your list HS, contains examples of positive discrimination based on economics rather than race.

Now what's wrong with that ?
The Economics of Inequality and Discrimination.
I. Income Inequality The Facts:
How do we measure income and well-being? How do we measure income inequality? What are the current income and wealth distributions for the U.S.? How has income inequality changed over time? How do income statistics vary by age, education, race/ethnicity and household composition? Economic Analysis: How are wages determined? How have immigration, minimum wage legislation, unions, international trade and technological change affected the distribution of income? What economic arguments can be made for and against the redistribution of income? Policies: What are the costs and benefits of policies designed to reduce income inequality? What policies might be used to increase demand for low-skilled workers? What would be the effect of policies designed to increase the supply of high-skilled workers?
II. Discrimination The Facts: What is labor market discrimination?
How do wages currently differ by gender, race and ethnicity? To what extent can these wage gaps be explained by factors other than discrimination? How have economists studied discrimination in various labor markets, such as those for professional athletes or musicians? Economic Analysis: What are the economic models of discrimination? What are the implications of employer, employee and customer discrimination in a competitive market? What is statistical discrimination? What are the implications of market power or search costs in models of discrimination? Policies: What are the major pieces of federal legislation addressing labor market discrimination? What is the impact of policies such as affirmative action, comparable worth, and mandatory parental leave?
III. Poverty and Welfare Programs The Facts:
How do we measure poverty? What are the liberal and conservative critiques of current U.S. poverty measures? Who is poor in the U.S.? What are the major federal welfare programs and how have they changed over time? Economic Analysis: How do welfare programs affect labor supply decisions? What economic incentives have been provided by changes in the welfare programs over time? How can ethnographic studies of welfare mothers conducted by sociologists inform economic theories? What does economic theory have to say about increases in out-of-wedlock childbearing? Policies: What were the key characteristics of the 1996 welfare reform bill? What policies have been proposed to address issues such as spatial mismatch? What are some of the current education policy proposals?
Richard Hawkes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Now what's wrong with that ?
Nothing ... I'd vote them all your money in a heartbeat
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Warren Dew:

One of the most pernicious effects of affirmative action is that far from alleviating the underlying prejudices, it tends to exacerbate them; favorable treatment of blacks, for example, not only tends to reinforce certain whites' belief that the blacks couldn't make it on their own without the help, but has also fooled many blacks into believing that as well.
[ May 04, 2004: Message edited by: Warren Dew ]


Now why was my post where I stated exactly the same censored by removing that statement?
 
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subject: Affirmative Action