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Changes in the Cattle Drive

Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
Effective May 1, 2001, the tuition for this course is US$200.00. This entitles you to full nitpicking on all assignments. That's $200 for our way (pain, torture, rewriting your code to satisfy us) or $2000 for your way (you always write beautiful code, and we can never find anything to pick at). Nitpicking begins when the money is received.

Students who began the course before May 1, 2001, will not be charged. Just make sure you keep posting.

If you don't want to pay the $200 then you can go on a waiting list. When there is an open spot, you will have an opportunity to join. But the wait may be long. When we have an opening, the first peron on the waiting list will get notified.

JavaBeginnersFaq
"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift; that's why they call it the present." Eleanor Roosevelt
Johannes de Jong
tumbleweed
Bartender

Joined: Jan 27, 2001
Posts: 5089
Where do you draw the line Marilyn?. Let me explain.
You guys currently have +- 100 students, of which between 30-40% are "inactive". based on what I see passing by in the forums & in the Assignment Log
What do you do with the "inactive" students. Can they indefinitely stay inactive? When they submit another attempt, do you check their number of "recent" (ie. not older than a few months) postings and then reject them if none are found or put them on the waiting list. Personally I think every person that is currently "inactive" should be mailed and told that the rules have changed & that if there are no recent posting from them, and I mean no Meaning Less Drivel they will automatically b e put on the "waiting list" (at the bottom). Off course it would be polite to warn them before that happens. Lots of admin/extra work, but don't worry I'll handle that side for you if you want.

Number of paying versus "freebies". Paying, unlimited, hey bucks are bucks. "freebies" 100?
I saw lots of people volunteering to become "nitpickers", money draws eager beavers . Maybe another option is that the "attempts" of the "freebies" get nitpicked by "un-official" nitpickers before they are allowed to submit their 1st real Attempt. This will at least assure that the really bad errors are out of the code before it reaches you, Bill & JC. A sort of "peer" code checking. This should be handled with care though. The attempts & the nitpicks must be kept, for "dope" testing by you. Heck if you get an attempt that is totally "wrong" you ask me for the history of the "nitpicks" before I passed the student on to you and then give me hell. Maybe one can have "un-official" nitpickers pair up. They both get the same attempt, "nitpick" it. Provide the student with an combined "nitpick". Maybe a new Forum "Java 1/8 nitpickers". Where "nitpickers can learn & collaborate. Off course access is restricted. Gee what I wont do to get access to an exclusive club

Just a few ideas. I have lots more or depends on which way you look at it.

[This message has been edited by Johannes de Jong (edited May 03, 2001).]
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
Originally posted by Johannes de Jong:
What do you do with the "inactive" students. Can they indefinitely stay inactive?

If they have ever been active, they are in, regardless of how long it's been. There aren't very many dropouts who come back in my experience, and I'm sure we will be able to handle the few who do.

[This message has been edited by Marilyn deQueiroz (edited May 03, 2001).]
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
Originally posted by Johannes de Jong:
Number of paying versus "freebies". Paying, unlimited, hey bucks are bucks. "freebies" 100?

It's more a matter of how many active students there are at a time.

Also, having fewer students at a time will result in better turn around times, maybe even several attempts in one day.

[This message has been edited by Marilyn deQueiroz (edited May 03, 2001).]
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
Originally posted by Johannes de Jong:
... This should be handled with care though. The attempts & the nitpicks must be kept, for "dope" testing by you. Heck if you get an attempt that is totally "wrong" you ask me for the history of the "nitpicks" before I passed the student on to you and then give me hell.

How is this different than training nitpickers?
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
Originally posted by Johannes de Jong:
I saw lots of people volunteering to become "nitpickers", money draws eager beavers . Maybe another option is that the "attempts" of the "freebies" get nitpicked by "un-official" nitpickers before they are allowed to submit their 1st real Attempt. This will at least assure that the really bad errors are out of the code before it reaches you, Bill & JC. A sort of "peer" code checking.... Maybe one can have "un-official" nitpickers pair up. They both get the same attempt, "nitpick" it. Provide the student with an combined "nitpick". Maybe a new Forum "Java 1/8 nitpickers". Where "nitpickers can learn & collaborate. Off course access is restricted.

Sort of a nitpicker training class? Maybe in the future.
Campbell Hore
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 15, 2001
Posts: 7
How do I get my name on the waiting list? I can't seem to find anything on this on Cattle Drive pages.
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
You send email to nitpick@javaranch.com (until we get another way set up) and request to be put on the waiting list.
Campbell Hore
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 15, 2001
Posts: 7
Thanks Marilyn
Don Smathers
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2001
Posts: 31
Ever since sightin' the bunk-house and comin' in for a look-see I've consistently wondered how y'all cud possibly finance the operation without taxes --- of some kind ---
As to the effect on gettin' the herd out of here and to Kansas, it's your web-site --- if no more ranch hands apply, so be it. If you make a mint, that's even better !! It's what America is all about --- ( being a successful cattle baron ) --
Two more thots --- how about 1> a cattle chute ( Johanne's idea) where the critter gets shunted to a 'feed pen' or to the next level?
2> Choice between a) fast trip to Kansas ( for experienced programmers, but with little or no Java exposure ) and b) roamin' the range ( for programming newbies ); with clear levels of difficulty between a and b ?
Would I pay $200 ( or 100 or 20 ) for a site-unseen (joke) promise of endless torture?? Not sure -- may be worth considering 1) a trial -- say the first three Assignments, free;
2) sweetening the deal with a good book[ Deitel & D, How to Program, 3rd Ed would be my choice].
Despite my lowly status as a simple cow-poke, I'd be willin' to get on the ol' steed and 'steer' a bunch of newbies towards loftier pursuits.
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
Originally posted by Don Smathers:
Two more thots --- how about 2> Choice between a) fast trip to Kansas ( for experienced programmers, but with little or no Java exposure ) and b) roamin' the range ( for programming newbies ); with clear levels of difficulty between a and b ?


In our experience, being an "experienced programmer" does not necessarily get a student through the cattle drive assignments faster. I think that making that assumption would not necessarily be advantageous.

However, as the ratio of students to nitpickers decreases, the turn-around-time will also improve, thus allowing all students to progress more rapidly.
Carol Murphy
village idiot
Bartender

Joined: Mar 15, 2001
Posts: 1195
What form of payment is preferred, and for those of us who might prefer to send a check, whose name should go on it?
Johannes de Jong
tumbleweed
Bartender

Joined: Jan 27, 2001
Posts: 5089
Originally posted by Marilyn deQueiroz:
How is this different than training nitpickers?

Part of the workload gets taken away from you. The trainee nitpickers train each, to a point off course. I know from a previous message from Bill that there is much more in nitpicking than most of us, including myself, realize though. But at least you, Bill & JC will not get total rubbish ie. an attempt that totally ignores the style guide.
[This message has been edited by Johannes de Jong (edited May 06, 2001).]
Pauline McNamara
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 4012
    
    6
A couple thoughts about the changes...
The cattle drive learning experience would cost MUCH more at any school or internet based distance learning program. It's a privilege to get this service for free, it's a real bargain at $200.
Looks like things will be getting more complicated, at least at the beginning (payment, checking on payment, waiting list administration, etc.). Wonder if there'll be less mails asking "where's my nitpick?" and more asking "where am I on the list, when can I start, do you accept diner's club, etc"...
Those of us lucky enough to have started before May 1st "pay" by continuing to post to the forum. For me, this part of the cattle drive experience has proven to add a lot to my learning: I check it out more regularly than I would if I hadn't been reminded that that's part of the deal. Consequently, discussions and questions from other students help me move to along in the exercises and maybe even to pass in assignments with a nit less to pick in them. I'm wondering if paying students would be "silent partners", and if this would change the flavor a bit of the cattle drive...
It sounds like the time involved in nitpicking couldn't possibly be compensated fairly by a $200 fee per student, so I'm guessing that the main purpose of charging $200 is to slow down the onslaught of new cattle drivers. Is it possible that this could be accomplished by setting a limit on number of students and having a waiting list, like it's now possible for those who can't pay? Or maybe I'm guessing wrong and javaranch needs the cash - in this case, I wouldn't hesitate to contribute, it's quite a deal.
just some thoughts
Pauline
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
Originally posted by Carol Murphy:
What form of payment is preferred, and for those of us who might prefer to send a check, whose name should go on it?

The answers to these quesitons are here.
Joseph Russell
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 290
Just for fun is it possible for us to recieve a "diploma." Maybe one with the famed deer head on it?
Thanks for all the work you guys do.
Johannes de Jong
tumbleweed
Bartender

Joined: Jan 27, 2001
Posts: 5089
Good idea. As the site as a whole runs on goodwill and Paul's wallet I do think that the student should pay for it though.
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
Joseph, That is A MOOSE.


"JavaRanch, where the deer and the Certified play" - David O'Meara
matthew austin
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 28, 2001
Posts: 18
Well all things change I suppose . . . I'm glad to have gotten in ahead of time!
Potential challenges for international students on US payments, no?
-m
[This message has been edited by matthew austin (edited May 16, 2001).]
Joseph Russell
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 290
And IM a ranch hand??? I meant a moose...
I'm the chef that's why I didn't catch it off hand...or I was drunk... you make the call
Johannes de Jong
tumbleweed
Bartender

Joined: Jan 27, 2001
Posts: 5089
Some moderator I am. I did not notice your error Joseph .
Thanks Cindy for defending old Moosy. Should find a name for the old fart, or has it got one already. Paul, maybe ?

[This message has been edited by Johannes de Jong (edited May 16, 2001).]
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20545
    ∞

I remember when this place first started to take off there was some debate over whether the forums should be called "The Big Moose Saloon" or "The Mangy Moose Saloon". There was also some commentary about where the eyeball went: it was agreed that it landed in somebody's beer.
I don't remember anybody trying to name the moose.
Let's see if I can answer some questions:
The purpose for the charge is so that the nitpickers don't die of exhaustion. And if you were to calculate an hourly rate for a nitpicker, it would still come out to well below minimum wage.
Anything about a waiting list is strictly in the hands of Marilyn.
Payment: send that to me. Details are on the cattle drive about page. We can take most forms of plastic. Plastic is the best way for international stuff. The only way we can take international payment through the mail is a check in US funds drawn on a US bank or a postal money order in US funds.
Diploma: This is something we thought about looooooong ago. I've actually offered it a coupla times, but nobody ever took me up on it. Oh well.

permaculture Wood Burning Stoves 2.0 - 4-DVD set
Johannes de Jong
tumbleweed
Bartender

Joined: Jan 27, 2001
Posts: 5089
I remember when this place first started to take off there was some debate over whether the forums should be called "The Big Moose Saloon" or "The Mangy Moose Saloon". There was also some commentary about where the eyeball went: it was agreed that it landed in somebody's beer.
I read the thread about an hour ago. Kinda nice to read the history. Any chance of seeing the old Moose ?
I don't remember anybody trying to name the moose.
I'll take it up in Meaningless Drivel
Diploma: This is something we thought about looooooong ago. I've actually offered it a coupla times, but nobody ever took me up on it. Oh well.
I mailed Marilyn about it this morning. When she responds I'll take it up in the forum here. The student will have to pay for your & Marilyn's signature . I though $15 or so.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Changes in the Cattle Drive