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Indian techies err less than US pros

Sameer Jamal
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Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/688140.cms
Warren Dew
blacksmith
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Joined: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 1332
    
    2
So is it all that error checking code that makes the second page of the article so slow to load?
Jeffrey Hunter
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Joined: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 305
Great. More propaganda.
Arjun Shastry
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Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Economic Times is under Times Of India group.This notorious group and its journalists are known for printing anything once you give them cash.Be it aspering female model or scientist or offshore company,once you give money to TOI people,your work gets done.Problem is their readership is increasing at alarming rate.Once they started one site times computing giving HTML/scripting chapters.They have not updated site since last 3 years.
[ May 25, 2004: Message edited by: Ram Abdullah D'Souza ]

MH
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

TOI sells because of sex and semi nude models.


Groovy
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
From their website:
{
The National Cyber Security Partnership (NCSP) is led by the Business Software Alliance (BSA), the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA), TechNet and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in voluntary partnership with academicians, CEOs, federal government agencies and industry experts.
}
Who is behind that article?

KR Campbell
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 124
Propaganda aside, this actually isn't so far from an article in the Observer in March( U.K. broadsheet : no tits ).

Simon Caulkin focused on the work of Watts Humphrey ( former director of programming at IBM; currently at Carnegie Mellon Software Engineering Institute ). Humphrey claims that it has something to do with software quality systems and that Indian companies are looking for an edge in this area.

Caulkin goes on to say that, ' Indian companies such as Infosys and AIS are now churning out code that is not only cheaper but better than the industry standard.' He suggests that the Indian software industry is looking to do to its competitors what the Japanese car industry did by following strict quality principles.

What do you reckon?
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
I doubt whether Indians can turn out code that's inherently better than that produced by Americans or Europeans with the same level of experience and training.

But, and that's a bit but, there's a lot of people who entered the industry without anything but "VB for dummies" in the US and Europe in the late 1990s while the average Indian codemonkey has a university degree of some sort.
So their average education level at the moment is higher...
Of course the dummies in Europe and the US are among the first to hit the streets in the big layoffs of the last few years, but it will be a while before they're completely purged by which time the boom in India will have reached the same proportions (as seems underway) of hiring everyone who can find the proper keys to punch on a computer keyboard and their level of proficiency will drop.

That said, in my personal experience the code coming out of India is usually substandard and project failure rates are far higher than those of locally run projects (100% failure for technical reasons against maybe 50% at most, and those 50% mainly for political rather than technical reasons).


42
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

That said, in my personal experience the code coming out of India is usually substandard and project failure rates are far higher than those of locally run projects (100% failure for technical reasons against maybe 50% at most, and those 50% mainly for political rather than technical reasons).


just curious, could you please elaborate on the substandard part as in what do you think is lacking and do you mean to say none of the locally run projects fail due to (political)Technical reasons ?
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
I've been involved in 3 outsourced projects on the sidelines.
1 was cancelled when several months after the deadline not a single line of code had been delivered.
1 was delivered but was of such appalling quality that we had to rewrite it from scratch.
The last was cancelled when the code that was delivered didn't meet the project specifications even closely (plus being incomplete even what was delivered) and the Indian company in question demanded more money or else they'd sue us for breach of contract.

Of course projects everywhere fail for technical reasons, or run over schedule. But the ratio I've encountered of that is far lower than what I've seen in outsourced projects as well as what I've heard from people I trust who had similar experiences.
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
This is the truth of outsourcing - it's about cost only....and the fundamental rule of economics is you get what you pay for!!!


"....bigmouth strikes again, and I've got no right to take my place with the human race...."<p>SCJP 1.4
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
I'm moving this to the Jobs Discussion forum.
Mohan Panigrahi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 142

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting

Examples of projects failed because they were offshored
--------------------------------------------------------
1 was cancelled when several months after the deadline not a single line of code had been delivered.
1 was delivered but was of such appalling quality that we had to rewrite it from scratch.
The last was cancelled when the code that was delivered didn't meet the project specifications even closely



These are all lollipop examples, only to extrude sighs ( of relief ) from unsuspecting ranchers.

The fact of the matter is that you need to put some money, more than that would buy you a pair of shoes at Payless shoe stores, for your offshore projects. Had you given these projects to Wipro,Infy or even smaller but sturdier ( and little more expensive ) offshore companies, you would have for your respective examples

1. All lines of code delivered to you before deadline..
2. All code conforming to CMM5.
3. Code nearly close to specifications.

Before you take these remarks as inflammatory, let me make clear that it is a pointless discussion where you equate the quality of code with nationality of people, except if you want to find out the count of chauvinists in and around here.
Homer Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 311
Before you take these remarks as inflammatory, let me make clear that it is a pointless discussion where you equate the quality of code with nationality of people, except if you want to find out the count of chauvinists in and around here.


I do not believe this is true. US Pros, Americans in general, take little pride in their work. In the US, people want to make a quick buck. The culture is based on this quarter's massaged numbers.

How come you Indian chest thumpers are behind the Japanese?
Marc Peabody
pie sneak
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Posts: 4727

The disclaimer last two sentences of the article:

Also Indian programmers work on not-so-modern hardware platforms and coding styles. The type of customer needs and quality and reliability standards are also on the lower end.


A good workman is known by his tools.
Kishore Dandu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
I've been involved in 3 outsourced projects on the sidelines.
1 was cancelled when several months after the deadline not a single line of code had been delivered.
1 was delivered but was of such appalling quality that we had to rewrite it from scratch.
The last was cancelled when the code that was delivered didn't meet the project specifications even closely (plus being incomplete even what was delivered) and the Indian company in question demanded more money or else they'd sue us for breach of contract.

Of course projects everywhere fail for technical reasons, or run over schedule. But the ratio I've encountered of that is far lower than what I've seen in outsourced projects as well as what I've heard from people I trust who had similar experiences.


People,

Don't worry about the above poster. He is always against outsourcing, indian programmers etc(without substantial reasoning).

I have personally seen bunch of outsourced projects that are going on successfully. It has in part to do with the management on both the sides, their commitment levels, communication approaches etc.


Kishore
SCJP, blog
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:


Don't worry about the above poster. He is always against outsourcing, indian programmers etc(without substantial reasoning).



It is inappropriate to attack other ranchers. Please only stick to attacking arguments.

--Mark
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Mohan Panigrahi:

2. All code conforming to CMM5.


AFAIK there's no such thing as CMM5 code specification. Organizations have their processes qualified at a certain level. The belief is that organizations with good prcesses produce good code. SEI does not address code standards or access code directly.

--Mark
Jeffrey Hunter
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 305
I erroneously thought this discussion had died in a previous thread, with both sides agreeing to disagree. Perhaps some of those here have not been privy to this previous discussion.

So, to the originator of this lovely thread, what exactly is your point?

Are you attempting to proffer some bogus article as evidence to the superiority of the Indian coders? Even if the article has factual support by a research study, so what? I hardly believe it is definitive proof of anything.

The simple fact of the matter is, we are all programmers (well, most of us at least), and regardless of where we call home, we equally share in the art and science of coding and in that, we enjoy some solidarity with each other. However, when garbage like this is posted, it serves little purpose other than to unsheathe the swords and call us to arms, effectively dividing us into two opposing groups.

Perhaps a thread such as this would be better posted on another board, where the moderators are not so quick to quell the firestorm.
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Originally posted by Jeffrey Hunter:
So, to the originator of this lovely thread, what exactly is your point?


same as yours
ChanSan Mehbubani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 108
Jamalgote,what do you want to say?now don't runaway from the question.Say clearly what you want to say.


I am a Papad
Jeffrey Hunter
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 305
If your point is the same as mine, then I have misinterpreted this thread. Perhaps a more appropriate title, and some explanation as opposed to an article link may have made your point a bit clearer. Certainly the article speaks for itself, but as we are all here to engage in enlightening discussion, your own words would be much more valued.
Homer Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 311
More snipes by the Indians.

The point they are trying to make is that Indians are just fundamentally smarter and better. Why they cannot answer, "Why the Japanese turn out better code?" Why they will not answer if they are so great, why the software industry did not originate in India?

When they are competing with labor forces in the US and the EU where the employees are heavily taxed; they have a great competetive advantage. They do not support social security. They do not provide their elders with medicare. They do not pay the cost of maintaining air quality in California. The produce their software in little walled enclaves surrounded by seas of poverty.

In time, they will be taxed more heavily.

In order to win business, they have to be cheaper. They have to be as good or better. Once they run the domestic competition out of business in the US and the EU, they will have to compete with themselves and their cheaper competitors. Now they will be the established providers. At this point they will decide the CMM5 designation is a costly burden they can no longer competetively provide.

The quality of their products will fall.

Enjoy your little arrogant snipes. We know what your desperation to abandon India for life in the US or the EU indicates.
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
The fact that OP originally posted this in MD shows he didn't take this too seriously himself, and if you read the comments from other Indians in the thread, you will see the general point of view is ridiculing Times Of India for publishing such article of no real value.

I don�t think Sameer, or �Indians� has any intention to boast or claim their cleverness over Westerners. Last time I checked India is still a developing country and the west, developed, in general.


[ flickr ]
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Homer Phillips:
More snipes by the Indians....


Is this Rufus under a new alias???


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Jeffrey Hunter:
Certainly the article speaks for itself, but as we are all here to engage in enlightening discussion, your own words would be much more valued.


Jeff..

The point of the people who post these articles is they want to instigate hatred between Americans and Indians. Nothing else. The same people have posted similar articles in the past for one simple reason.. instigate a furor between Americans and Indians. As you can judge from most of the remarks here, Indians dont think themselves to be superior in programming etc.

Secondly, anything from the "Times of India" should be treated as garbage. On 9/12/2001 (day after 9/11) their front page had a semi-nude model. This is how they sell papers. You can bet that if India and Pakistan launch a nuclear war, the TOI will still have a semi-nude model on its front page. Its basically a tabloid not a newspaper.

However, I would like to point out that Homer Phillips and his like are doing no good to calm the situation in this forum. I find his remarks to be particularly offensive but if that is how he feels fine! I can only express pity for him.
Jeffrey Hunter
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 305
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


You can bet that if India and Pakistan launch a nuclear war, the TOI will still have a semi-nude model on its front page.


Haha. Ignorance on my part, thanks for the tidbit. Ignorance also, since I'm a relative newbie here and haven't recognized the instigators.
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Originally posted by Homer Phillips:
More snipes by the Indians.
.. They do not support social security. They do not provide their elders with medicare. They do not pay the cost of maintaining air quality in California.

Slightly off the topic,but want to say that if life in your country would have been harder than developing countries then you would not have seen huge immigration of people from these countries to EU/US.Right?Many immigrants from Asian countries settle(even after earning good money) permanently in US,EU clearly indicates that life in developed countries is relatively easier than developing one.
Kishore Dandu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Homer Phillips:
More snipes by the Indians.

The point they are trying to make is that Indians are just fundamentally smarter and better. Why they cannot answer, "Why the Japanese turn out better code?" Why they will not answer if they are so great, why the software industry did not originate in India?

When they are competing with labor forces in the US and the EU where the employees are heavily taxed; they have a great competetive advantage. They do not support social security. They do not provide their elders with medicare. They do not pay the cost of maintaining air quality in California. The produce their software in little walled enclaves surrounded by seas of poverty.

In time, they will be taxed more heavily.

In order to win business, they have to be cheaper. They have to be as good or better. Once they run the domestic competition out of business in the US and the EU, they will have to compete with themselves and their cheaper competitors. Now they will be the established providers. At this point they will decide the CMM5 designation is a costly burden they can no longer competetively provide.

The quality of their products will fall.

Enjoy your little arrogant snipes. We know what your desperation to abandon India for life in the US or the EU indicates.


You posts look like as racist as world can get.
Maulin Vasavada
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 04, 2001
Posts: 1871
why the software industry did not originate in India?
???

-I ask "why Los Angeles doesn't have that much rain?" Because its the "weather". (Did you notice period at the end of the sentence?)
This means that not just the clouds that matters but the overall atmosphere that plays role in getting rain which allows clounds to pour down.

When we say "software industry" it doesn't mean bunch of programmers. The whole business model and the economy also plays vital role. If we ignore that fact then I would consider the argument without any vision or reason.

Thanks
Maulin
Thomas White
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 01, 2003
Posts: 32
I'm all for the semi-nude models on the front page. That something TOI should keep!
Sonny Gill
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Joined: Feb 02, 2002
Posts: 1211

SIGH!!!


The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet. - William Gibson
Consultant @ Xebia. Sonny Gill Tweets
Sriram Chandrasekaran
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 17
I dont see any purpose on the TOI article except that it does make some indians happy. I dont see any purpose of the posting of the link here
except that it makes some westeners unhappy.

Anyway the article does not say that anybody is superior or inferior..it pro
bably reflects some data collected...no body has to take it personally...we are developers...leave propoganda to politicians... ...and please for god sake never again post such controversial messages here...this is so unhealthy...except for one thing....can i get the link to that issue where there was that semi-nude model

-ram
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Sonny Gill:
SIGH!!!


Best post ever!
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Main purpose of posting the link was just to see the opinion of others, I beleive Indians are not at all victim of complacency, in the end general opinion was "TOI is for semi nude models" great.
ChanSan Mehbubani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 108
Hmmm..Next time onwards,post your valuable opinion too!!
ChanSan Mehbubani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 108
Originally posted by Homer Phillips:

In the US, people want to make a quick buck. The culture is based on this quarter's massaged numbers.

Come to Himalayas.W'll do yoga together for years.
Homer Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 311
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not understand!
I will tell you why the Indians WIN.
Because they work hard, and are determined people.
Sorry to say it but the WEST falls back in many ways to the EAST.
AND, that is why they will win.
Until things get so bad and a world war will occurr.
OK THEN QUITTERS, RUN OFF TO YOUR NEW CAREER.
Just remember your a quitter, havn't got what it takes to succeed and be the best!
(UK resident)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indians do not succeed because they work harder than UK citizens. They succeed because they are 10x cheaper.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Apart from the above points one thing I would like to highlight for Indian IT professionals that they face very tough competition in their career. If you are born in India then you have to face competition in every phase of your life, starting from your eductaion to get enter in to a good college, to take the job in the market and even in your organisation you have to compete with your colleagues, I think this refines the India IT professionals and when you get this cream in low price then surely Indians are the first choice. Like tony has given up in s/w dveleopment if he were born and brought up in India I think he would not have given up so easly.

Sameer Jamal, you posted the above here. I do not believe you were talking about TOI. You, I'm supposing you are Indian, and several other Indians believe that Indians and Indian culture are superior.

The subterfuges and the personal attacks have been entertaining, Kishore,
Paul, Ashok.
Varun Khanna
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2002
Posts: 1400
Originally posted by Homer Phillips:
Sameer Jamal, you posted the above here.


You registered on 26 May'04 and quoting a link of Feb'04. :roll:
You googled this forum pretty well .......
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Varun Khanna ]

- Varun
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Originally posted by Varun Khanna:


You registered on 26 May'04 and quoting a link of Feb'04. :roll:
You googled this forum pretty well .......

[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Varun Khanna ]


Varun,

You are great.

 
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