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Money and house...

Manish Hatwalne
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Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

Have been looking for a house (flat/apartment) lately, and I am surprised by the prices in my city in not-so-prime area. They are obscene, and I am sure I won't be able to afford one even with loan/finanaces anytime soon. And I thought, being a s/w professional I was drawing a good sal. I know my sal may not be in the topmost line, but it should be decent. But then the real estate prices did shock me!!!

Just wondering how to make such a huge amount of money legally? How do others do that? (if they can afford these homes, they have the money) If I work in India I don't see a fair chance of making that sort of money. How to make more money? My current Job keeps me busy most of the time and whatever little spare time I get, I need it for myself; to take care of some personal work. But there has to be some way...

- Manish
[ July 07, 2004: Message edited by: Manish Hatwalne ]
Arjun Shastry
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Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
Have been looking for a house (flat/apartment) lately, and I am surprised by the prices in my city in not-so-prime area. They are obscene, and I am sure I won't be able to afford one even with loan/finanaces anytime soon. And I thought, being a s/w professional I was drawing a good sal. I know my sal may not be in the topmost line, but it should be decent. But then the real estate prices did shock me!!!

This is the problem for years,I think!.But as per current India Today issue,average age of salaried Indian owning a house/apartment(flat) is reduced from 40 to 35.I am in same boat.I moved here thinking Bangalore is cheaper atleast in real estate.But real estate is horrible.As discussed earlier,2BHK in descent area costs around 30 lakh.In remote places,it costs around 20 lakhs.Real estate will always be a golden business.As govt is interested only in developing few parts and neglecting the rest,these problems arise as all people move towards cities for finding jobs.


Just wondering how to make such a huge amount of money legally? How do others do that? (if they can afford these homes, they have the money) If I work in India I don't see a fair chance of making that sort of money. How to make more money? My current Job keeps me busy most of the time and whatever little spare time I get, I need it for myself; to take care of some personal work. But there has to be some way...

Formula for earning money varies from country to country, I think.If you consider IT,I see ,successful people are having alot of experience before starting the business.There are many people whose salary go as 100% savings as they stay with parents.For them,purchasing a house is not that difficult.People who are in adverstsing/fashion design/small exporters are earning like anything.Average IT salary is may be 50% than their average salary.In India,if you want to earn more money,one has to start a business.Working for some IT project and sitting 12 hours a day won't lead to anything,I think.


MH
Manish Hatwalne
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Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

Very true!!!

I think S/W professionals are unnecessarily perceived as ppl with high income. That's not entirely true, as I can see ppl from finance are also drawing equally good or eve better sal. And business ppl are probably the best of the lot...

BTW, I stay with my parents, but my sal is not 100% savings. I have a family to support and there are far too many expenses.

Guess another alternative is when both are working. A typical DINK (Double Income No Kids) family might think of affording 20L+ home.

30L home, my dreams are not so big, yet!

Need to look for some other way of having another source of income...

- Manish
Joe King
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Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
I can sympathise. I currently live in London and rent a flat. I'd love to buy somewhere, but its pretty much impossible at the moment - the average deposit I'd need is about the same as I earn in a year, so there is no way I can save up enough. Eventually I'll probably have to leave London or rob a bank.

Gar why wasn't I born a few years earlier - I work in web programming, and timed my career brilliantly by leaving university just as the dot-com boom died a horrible death. Where have the days gone when you could earn �40k a year for HTML programming?
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
I think situation is similar everywhere.
Joe,how much it cost approximately for purchasing 2 Bedroom apartment in London?
In India: following is my observation about few 3 cities,
Bangalore:US $ 44444
Mumbai: varies from $40000 to $80000
Pune: $30000(not sure ,may be near Baner?)
{
I think S/W professionals are unnecessarily perceived as ppl with high income
}
Yes,people who really earn money in India(escpecially in cities) are :
1)Restaurant owners
2)Shop owners in some XYZ shopping plaza
3)Garments,diamond,leather exporters
4)Private bus owners
5)Fashion desingers,advertsing people
6)Genaral stores where you get anything from BhagwadGita to birth control pills.
[ July 07, 2004: Message edited by: Arjun Shastry ]
Manish Hatwalne
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Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

In Pune it is at least USD 36000 + (yes that's the price now even in remote areas) Otherwise it's around USD 45000 (20L+) in not so prime areas. In prime areas, it's very very high.

In last 6-8 months prices have increased like anything. My friend booked a flat in Dec 2002 and got it by Oct 2003 for around 12.5L in Kondhwa, now same area, same builder, another building similar flat costs 18.5 L+

One annoying thing is that builders are now charging around 75K+ for parking and around 75k to 1L for one-time (not LIFE TIME) maintenance in addition to other costs. And most financial institutions don't finance this part. So in addition to your contribution to flat cost and stamp duty-registration (which should be around 4-5L), you must have additional 2L for this stuff. Annoying!!

A quote I have received from one builder in one of the remote locations, with inadequate water supply -

The flat area is around 1060 Sq Ft, 2 BHK. To be completed by end of 2005 (So you pay EMI for 18 months in advance)

Basic Rate - 1450/sq ft = 1522500
Electricity, soc etc - 50,000
Parking - 85,000
One-time maintenance - 90000
Stamp Duty & registration - Actuals (around 70000 I think)

In addition he anticipates monthly maintenance charges around INR 1000 once you move in. Besides, I found flooring he provided to be substandard, so he informed me another INR 35000 to 50000 extra for better flooring!!! Didn�t have courage to ask about bath fittings, they looked so-so as well.

So that goes nearly around 20L without any furniture or anything lavish. And my bank will only finance around 85% of basic flat cost - 1522500 (plus stamp and reg. I guess)
So it will finance around 13L and flat costs me nearly 20L without any furniture!!! Basic furniture should cost around another 1.5L to 2L!!

So I need around 8-9L before I think of buying a flat, and rest of my life I pay installments. And all I own is a simple 2 BHK flat, nothing fancy! Amazing!!!

- Manish
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
In last 6-8 months prices have increased like anything.
- Manish


When I was in Pune (3 yr back), at that time it was lowest real estate compare to Mumbai and Bangalore .. but now after seeing the rates you have provided it seems that its in competition with Mumbai and Bangalore ..


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I am going mad.


Groovy
Ashok Mash
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Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
House prices are sky high here in Ireland as well. In some areas, house prices has tripled in last 12 years or so, and these days buying small 2 bedroom apartment (500 � 600 sq feet) in a new built-up (away from city) would set you back a not-so-cool 250,000 euros, that�s quarter a million euros (2.5 lakh euros � or 125 lakh rupees), or 300,000 USD!! I am just giving away half my salary to landlord as rent, because I just don�t have a choice!


[ flickr ]
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I am just giving away half my salary to landlord as rent, because I just don�t have a choice!


You are really a rich guy!
Joe King
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Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:
I think situation is similar everywhere.

Unfortunatly so. How I wish I was a landlord.......

Joe,how much it cost approximately for purchasing 2 Bedroom apartment in London?
In India: following is my observation about few 3 cities,
Bangalore:US $ 44444
Mumbai: varies from $40000 to $80000
Pune: $30000(not sure ,may be near Baner?)


It depends a lot upon what part of the London the flat is in. Generally the closer to the centre, the more expensive, although there are exceptions. The flat I am currently renting is in the not so salubrious Catford (a relatively low priced area) about 6 miles from the centre of London and would probably cost about �250,000 to buy (approx $463,000). It costs me (well, us - I share with my girlfriend) �750 a month in rent, which is approx $1,389.

In the UK there is a massive difference in the house prices between the north and south of the country. If I was to sell a 2 bedroom flat in London I could probably buy a 4 bed house in the north of England and a palace in Wales Luckily the wages are also higher in the south.....
[ July 07, 2004: Message edited by: Joe King ]
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Similar in the Netherlands. I have a relatively cheap 1 bedroom apartment costing me almost �600 a month in rent.

Buying something roughly the same in a decent part of Amsterdam would cost me half a million, buying a smallish house in the city I live would cost about �250000 which on my income is simply unaffordable (it is now understood that only couples on double income can afford to buy a house unless one has a massive income).

My income is over median, which means I get no government support to pay the rent either (for low incomes, it's now impossible to rent a house without subsidies, it's gotten that crazy).
From next year rental prices will no longer be government controlled (right now the government sets a cap to the yearly increase in rent, they're scrapping that). I wonder how long until I'm out on the street because I fully expect the owner to start raising the rent 10-20% a year...


42
Steve Wink
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Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 223
Originally posted by Joe King:
I can sympathise. I currently live in London and rent a flat. I'd love to buy somewhere, but its pretty much impossible at the moment - the average deposit I'd need is about the same as I earn in a year, so there is no way I can save up enough. Eventually I'll probably have to leave London or rob a bank.



Just wait for the property bubble to burst, then you'll be able to afford something.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Steve Wink:


Just wait for the property bubble to burst, then you'll be able to afford something.


Havent you heard the saying? "Land and Gold never lose their value.."

As population increases, land prices will definetly sky rocket.

Manish:
You may want to consider moving further south like Madras. Around April/May this year I found nice beach houses selling for 15 Lacs. Ofcourse the downside of purchasing a beach house is that your commute may be 15 mins more when compared to buying a house inside the city but its definetly more affordable.


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Amit Agrawal
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Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
A topic so close to heart...

I am the one who put in all i had plus a big loan to buy a flat here at Gurgaon, where i work. Now i am paying almost 45~50% of my salary to pay back loan. So difficult..never realized before that it is so difficult to actually pay back loan. It really pinches hard.

Only comforting factor is that the flat i bought almost 1 yrs back has registered price increment of 30%. But that hardly helps...after all whatever might be the price one can not sell the flat where he/she lives.

I think I was better off living in rented apartments.

<< IT guys are no where near to best paid guys. What we earn is peanuts for most of the ppl I see around >>
Steve Wink
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Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 223
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


Havent you heard the saying? "Land and Gold never lose their value.."

As population increases, land prices will definetly sky rocket.



By that do you mean they never ever go down? Wars cause gold prices to spike. They then go back down. Maybe the long term trend is up, but if you bought at a peak it may take 10 years to reach that level again.

Land follows similar speculative trends - I believe that in the 80's the land in Tokyo was valued at more than the entire value of the US, and have been dropping ever since. If you bought an acre of land in Tokyo then you would still be sitting on a loss for decades.

Property in the UK, especially London, has been rising at 20% per annum for a few years, and people simply cannot afford to buy houses. Worse, people have been taking out larger loans against their property values and spending it on holidays etc, so their debt is effectively higher. The best that people are expecting now is a plateau for a few years until the prices fall back towards long term trends, but people tend to behave like a pack; we chased the prices up, and we'll chase the prices down.
Helen Thomas
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Joined: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 1759
In Melbourne house prices fell 12.9 % in the first three months of th eyear and in Sydney they fell 7.5%. UK homeowners/ buyers should take note because there are uncanny similarities. Good if buying, not if selling.
Both booms began in 1996 since when Australian house prices have risen for 30 of the last 31 quarters leaving prices 2.1 times above the low.

UK prices rose 31 out of the last 33 quarters and are 2.7 times higher than before. There was no obvious trigger for the Australian dump.

Like the Brits Aussies are deeply in debt . Average debt has risen to 150% of an average income by the beginning of the year. Higher prices have pushed Australians over the edge which led to collapse in prices.

More bad news : 1970's style inflation may be on it's way back. For those still in kindergarten it meant instead of 1p for a Mars bar,dug deep for 10p.

The fear is that politicians will put pressure on central bankers to let inflation rip so as to erode the value of government debt needed to cope with an ageing population.

From articles in the Economist, The Times.
[ July 07, 2004: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

Le Cafe Mouse - Helen's musings on the web - Java Skills and Thrills
"God who creates and is nature is very difficult to understand, but he is not arbitrary or malicious." OR "God does not play dice." - Einstein
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Steve Wink:
By that do you mean they never ever go down?


I wanted to warn Paul that its an Indian saying .. but ..

Now ball is in Paul's court
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I agree with Paul that land price never comes down. This is especially true in countries like India where population is growing at an enormous rate.
The land price may remain flat for some time (For e.g. In Banaglore the land price remained flat during 2001-02) but it not decrease.
So If you have money invest in land.

The only occasion when the prices had come down was during the gulf war of 1990's when lot of Indians returned home

Gold price depend on several factors,so it may come down unlike land prices. People in India invest a lot in India. No doubt India is a largest consumer of Gold. Some one correct me If I am wrong.
Arjun Shastry
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Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
{
This is especially true in countries like India where population is growing at an enormous rate.
}
Rate of increase in population is decreased for past 3 decades.More than population,problem lies with uneven development due to wrong policies of various governments.Just visit north of Bangalore,around 100 Kms,and you will see how difficult it becomes to get daily drinking water not to speak about Gulbarga,Bellary of northen Karnataka where there is zero development .In almost every state,this is the problem.
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Rate of increase in population is decreased for past 3 decades


Rate would have decreased but the current rate is good enough to see that India runs out of land very soon.
Mani Ram
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Joined: Mar 11, 2002
Posts: 1140
Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
Just wondering how to make such a huge amount of money legally? How do others do that? (if they can afford these homes, they have the money)

Here is how my friend (a software guy like you & me) did it



Note that he was paying a rent of 7000 monthly, which he saves now.
So, actually he is spending just Rs 3000 more than what he was doing already, which is manageable.


If I work in India I don't see a fair chance of making that sort of money.

True. All you need to do is to find an onsite offer


Mani
Quaerendo Invenietis
Mani Ram
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Joined: Mar 11, 2002
Posts: 1140
Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
How to make more money?


Marry a rich girl
Mani Ram
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 11, 2002
Posts: 1140
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

You may want to consider moving further south like Madras. Around April/May this year I found nice beach houses selling for 15 Lacs.


And spend thousands of Rupees every month for water
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
there was an excellent article about just this situation in a paper here yesterday.

Clearly shows that there is a massive discrepancy between income and house prices and it's getting worse.
This is (which is at last getting acknowledged) leading to large numbers of households being unable to pay for their mortgage or rent.

People are ever more stuck in low-class housing despite having incomes which should enable them to get something better (and on incomes on which they'd not be legally entitled to bid on renting or buying the property which is often subsidised for low income households).

The reason: in the last decade income has gone up an average 20% at most while property prices and rent have gone up 250-300% in the same period.
At the same time construction of houses in the price range which people on median incomes can afford has screeched to a halt as cities and project developers build ever more highly expensive houses which can be sold and rented out at far more profit.

On my income I can get a mortgage (without ruining me) of roughly �150.000.
Problem is that a decent house (meaning something that's not in some rundown neighbourhood and needs massive work to make habitable) costs at lest �200.000 these days. A mortgage like that would cost me 75% of my income after taxes, leaving only a few hundred Euro a month for all other expenses combined (gas, electricity, food, car, property taxes, etc. etc.).
Rental prices for similar property would cost me something similar so I'm stuck in a cheap apartment in a complex originally meant for people on an income 50% of mine (but current rental prices mean those people can't afford the rent there anyway).
Sameer Jamal
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Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Originally posted by Amit Agrawal:
A topic so close to heart...

I think I was better off living in rented apartments.



The other side of the grass is always green
Arjun Shastry
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Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Living in rented house/apartment has no advantage atleast in India.AFAIK there are no concessions anywhere for people who are living on rent(except HRA).I am going to purchase flat as early as possible as money on rent is sheer waste.The same money you can use as EMI for purchasing of flat.
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I am going to purchase flat as early as possible as money on rent is sheer waste.


. Dont forget to invite us to visit your flat.
[ July 08, 2004: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

Originally posted by Mani Ram:


Note that he was paying a rent of 7000 monthly, which he saves now.
So, actually he is spending just Rs 3000 more than what he was doing already, which is manageable.

[qb]
If I work in India I don't see a fair chance of making that sort of money.

True. All you need to do is to find an onsite offer [/QB]


Agreed! Onsite opportunity would be ideal, but such offers are not coming by now. Now I understand why ppl are so desperate to get H1B, I thought I wouldn't be one of them; but now I can understand the desperation.

BTW, 10L saving on onsite seems too good. It must have ben a long term assignment. The highest amount I have heard ppl getting onsite was around 50 USD per day or 1500 USD/month from most companies.

Also, repayment 10K/month for loan of 20L sound a bit low. Is this a very log term loan (25 yers or sth)?

Actually, it is because of NRIs and S/W professionals from abroad real estate prices have gone up so much and that's why somehow these builders have strted believing that S/W guys make lots of money. If you have 25+ guy buying 30L home (sth that salaried ppl from previous generation can't afford even after working for 35 years), that sure sends such singnals.

- Manish
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

Originally posted by Mani Ram:


Marry a rich girl


But why would she marry me?

- Manish
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
there was an excellent article about just this situation in a paper here yesterday.

Clearly shows that there is a massive discrepancy between income and house prices and it's getting worse.
This is (which is at last getting acknowledged) leading to large numbers of households being unable to pay for their mortgage or rent.

People are ever more stuck in low-class housing despite having incomes which should enable them to get something better (and on incomes on which they'd not be legally entitled to bid on renting or buying the property which is often subsidised for low income households).

The reason: in the last decade income has gone up an average 20% at most while property prices and rent have gone up 250-300% in the same period.
At the same time construction of houses in the price range which people on median incomes can afford has screeched to a halt as cities and project developers build ever more highly expensive houses which can be sold and rented out at far more profit.

On my income I can get a mortgage (without ruining me) of roughly �150.000.
Problem is that a decent house (meaning something that's not in some rundown neighbourhood and needs massive work to make habitable) costs at lest �200.000 these days. A mortgage like that would cost me 75% of my income after taxes, leaving only a few hundred Euro a month for all other expenses combined (gas, electricity, food, car, property taxes, etc. etc.).
Rental prices for similar property would cost me something similar so I'm stuck in a cheap apartment in a complex originally meant for people on an income 50% of mine (but current rental prices mean those people can't afford the rent there anyway).


In India, that's not really the case. There are filthy rich ppl and there are those underpriviledged ones. Just like Mani explained, NRIs or s/w ppl with onsite placement come back with huge amount of money and for them buying a big property (30L is a reasonablly big property anywhere in India) is not a problem. And there are many such ppl in additionto ppl with business background. On the other hand, builders, real estate dealers see market clearing and ppl buying expensive homes, and they have no reason to reduce the prices though they can afford to do so.

Typical salaried middle class is getting thrown out from this market very fast. And with insane increase in educational and medical expenses; I guess India could be another Indonesia soon. I think there would be a tremendous increase in crime in India in next 10-15 years due to extreme polarization and many criminals could be middle class youths, and not slum dwlling youths.

- Manish
Joe King
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Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

At the same time construction of houses in the price range which people on median incomes can afford has screeched to a halt as cities and project developers build ever more highly expensive houses which can be sold and rented out at far more profit.


There's a similar kind of problem in the UK. The government realises that there is a lack of housing that poorer people can afford, so is causing more lower-price houses to be built. The problem is that a lot of richer people get hold of them to use for renting out, meaning that the poorer people are still stuck renting.

What's particularly frustrating is that I could afford to pay a mortgage (it would be less than I pay in rent), but I just cant afford the initial deposit. The amount more that I'm paying a month towards rent instead of a mortgage will probably add up to what I would pay in a deposit at some point as well .This leaves me with the choice of moving away, or getting a horribly huge loan at a nasty rate (i.e. 100% mortgage).
Manish Hatwalne
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Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:
Living in rented house/apartment has no advantage atleast in India.AFAIK there are no concessions anywhere for people who are living on rent(except HRA).I am going to purchase flat as early as possible as money on rent is sheer waste.The same money you can use as EMI for purchasing of flat.


Exactly! Resnt is unnecessary expenditure. But if you're single you can lways share your flat with a friends and I think you shouldn't be paying more than 2000-2500 per person for rented accomodation. Once you have family, it becomes more difficult though.

- Manish
Manish Hatwalne
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Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

Originally posted by Amit Agrawal:
A topic so close to heart...

Only comforting factor is that the flat i bought almost 1 yrs back has registered price increment of 30%.


Exactly, prices have increased a lot in last 1 year. Probably 2002 & 2003 was the best time to buy house in India. Unfortunately, I didn't have much money at that time. Guys who were in good position back then and purchased a house are the luckiest lot. As it seems, the trend for increasing prices will continue for next few years.

Last Novemeber a flat in my area was being sold at 1350/sq ft, this April they were charging 1550/sq ft.

- Manish
Axel Janssen
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Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
House prices in Germany appears to me similar at what Jeroen said about the Netherlands. Of course there are certain spots (especially in and around Munich or other bigger cities) where prices are much, much higher (same in NL I think).
Prices where much higher here than in NL and UK. So you were playing catch up in the last years (or we were playing fall back).

Rental prices appears cheaper to me. For 50-60 m2 in an overaverage spot you might pay 600 Euro in Cologne. But I have lots of friends who pay a lot less. In cities like Hannover its much cheaper (around 300 Euro). Berlin is cheap, but its quite often still with coal heating (in ex-communist part). In Munich its 1.200 and more.
Steve Wink
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Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 223
Originally posted by Joe King:


There's a similar kind of problem in the UK. The government realises that there is a lack of housing that poorer people can afford, so is causing more lower-price houses to be built. The problem is that a lot of richer people get hold of them to use for renting out, meaning that the poorer people are still stuck renting.



We used to have affordable housing for ordinary people. They were called council houses. Some bright spark got rid of them.
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2581

Anyway, flat or no flat. I have realized that it doesn't make sense to rely on single source of income, no matter how high it is. You need to multiple source of income; and in absense of real estate to rent out; the only option seems to be "do something else". I am trying to figure out what else that "something" could be? Corporate training is a lucrative option in India once again, given that lot of companies are again spending money for employee training here. I was contacted last year by one person for corporate training, may be I can ping him again. Any other ideas?

As for the home, I guess I need to postpone my plan of purchasing it for some time now. For now, I'll just get a cassette recorded titled "ghar" and listen to it; dreaming!!

Few songs I have on mind are -

(1) Logo ke gharon me raheta hoon
(2) Ek akela is shaher me..

Any other you can think of?

- Manish
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Few songs I have on mind are -

(1) Logo ke gharon me raheta hoon
(2) Ek akela is shaher me..



Why dont you try singing?

I am not even thinking about a house as I know I can't but one.
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
How many people here contribute(and EARN!!) in Open Source?Rightnow,its not a great option to earn a money but many state governments will be in the favour of opensource over propritory ones in near future.But I doubt whether they will succeed.If they succeed,training people,customizing software could be descent option ,I think.
Joe King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
Originally posted by Steve Wink:


We used to have affordable housing for ordinary people. They were called council houses. Some bright spark got rid of them.


bright sparks like Shirley Porter :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3867387.stm

[ July 08, 2004: Message edited by: Joe King ]
[ July 08, 2004: Message edited by: Joe King ]
 
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