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Legal online music store

Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
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Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Hi,
http://www.mac.com doesn't allow europe credit card holders to download online mp3 songs, they expect me to enter US billing address.
Doesn't anyone know any other GOOD site where i can download legal mp3 songs who have song collections like MAC ??

Thank you.
Balaji


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Richard Hawkes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
Do you mean iTunes? :
http://www.apple.com/itunes/

iTunes is available in UK, France and Germany. The music catalogues are smaller than the US ones though because they haven't managed to secure as many independent labels' support in Europe. [Removal of illegal suggestion]
[ July 14, 2004: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]
Ashok Mash
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Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
A Russian site, www.allofmp3.com lets you buy and download albums for almost throwaway prices, something like 1 GB download ~ $10!! They insist its legal and in fact its very popular as well! But the logic behind such low prices beats me!


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Helen Thomas
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Joined: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 1759
The price of the music in Russia must be really cheap when converted to dollars ?


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Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
I believe there is no law in Russia which prohibits music piracy so it would indeed be legal for them to offer pirated music for sale.

Of course it would NOT be legal for people in countries where music piracy IS illegal to purchase from them.


42
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
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Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Of course it would NOT be legal for people in countries where music piracy IS illegal to purchase from them.


Good Point Jeroen.

Thanks for the link Ashok.
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
Bartender

Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
A Russian site, www.allofmp3.com lets you buy and download albums for almost throwaway prices, something like 1 GB download ~ $10!! They insist its legal and in fact its very popular as well! But the logic behind such low prices beats me!


Ashok!.. Did you ever bought songs from this site ? I'm worried about security.
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
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Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
Do you mean iTunes? :
http://www.apple.com/itunes/
iTunes is available in UK, France and Germany.

Thanks Richard, but its expecting me to have an CCard billing address either at uk, france or germany.
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Balaji Loganathan:


Ashok!.. Did you ever bought songs from this site ? I'm worried about security.


Nope! I never bought any music off that site, but that�s not because of any concerns over security, but because my darker-side (sharing/copying from others for free) still prevails! But I know at least half a dozen people who have been using allofmp3.com for a good while now, some more than a year or so!

Giving your credit card details to someone who offers �almost free legal music downloads� is of course a huge concern, but most of the allofmp3 users that I know have a work around for this � Pay them using PayPal, which is reasonably secure.
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Paypal secure? don't make me laugh.
Sending cash through the mail to Russia is more secure than Paypal.
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
Bartender

Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Paypal secure? don't make me laugh.
Sending cash through the mail to Russia is more secure than Paypal.

Is it ??
Eventhough i used it for few times, i found it safe (atleast feel like).
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Paypal is relatively secure and its much secure than giving your credit card to a restaurant waiter who goes away with the card and does god-knows-what, and returns it after 10 minutes, whcih we all do time to time!
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
If you spent a year working on a program that you intended to sell and which people were more than willing to pay for, and then you found out that the program was being given out on some website in Russia, how would you feel after all that hard work? But we think nothing of stealing other people's music. If you really want it then go buy the CD.


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Dan Maples
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Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 153
Not to encourage piracy or anything, but I don't see the difference between downloading a song, and hitting record off the radio. Either way, you end up with a recording of the song, one way is perfectly legal, the other way is slightly illeagal. Any thoughts?


-Dan
Ashok Mash
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Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
If you really want it then go buy the CD.


Just to clarify, you are not saying buying music off the net is illegal or stealing, are you?
Warren Dew
blacksmith
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Joined: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 1332
    
    2
Thomas Paul:

But we think nothing of stealing other people's music. If you really want it then go buy the CD.

Or wait for the iTunes store to become available in your area. In other parts of western Europe and some parts of Asia (specifically Japan), that's likely to happen soon; India might be waiting a few years, I'm afraid.
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Warren Dew:
Or wait for the iTunes store to become available in your area.[/QB]


No need IMO, there are many other websites that sells music, legally. Eircom for example, but its just as expensive as buying it in CDs though!
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
Just to clarify, you are not saying buying music off the net is illegal or stealing, are you?


It depends on whether the site is allowed to sell the music or not. iTunes is obviously not illegal. I don't know about any others.
P. Sagdeo
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 13, 2003
Posts: 67
From what I know, it's legal as long as there's a drawback. Radios have ads, and CD have costs. Same with thing with those streaming clip things on yahoo, launch.yahoo.com or something (they have banner ads)...

That also explains how you're allowed to tape a movie on TV, but not do into the theatre...I think.
Warren Dew
blacksmith
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Joined: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 1332
    
    2
In the U.S., the legality of taping from the television for personal use was decided in Sony v Universal Studios. It's not exactly the clearest set of opinions from which to extract a "why", but it's an interesting read nonetheless.
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
The idea in this is personal use which explicitly excludes public performance.
Putting the file online via filesharing services like Kazaa or (previously) Napster counts as public performance and is therefore illegal.
Giving someone else a copy of the ripped CD is also not personal use (just as giving someone a copy of the taped TV show is not personal use).

Taping a movie in a theater is not allowed because it intrudes on the income stream of that theater (and the potential sales of videos/DVDs of the movie afterwards).
Making a copy of the tape you buy for safekeeping IS allowed under current law but you can keep it only as long as you keep the original as well (and the copy is regulated by the same terms as the original meaning you cannot legally lend, sell or give away the copy without supplying the original at the same time).

Resellers of online music like iTunes pay the producer of that music a fee for every track sold.
Radio stations and TV stations as well as discos, bars and restaurants pay a fee for every track played (or more frequently a flat fee per month).

Kazaa and Napster never paid a cent for their transmitting music and video, therefore were and are (in case of Kazaa) in violation of the law.
In the case of Kazaa where the company themselves are not directly involved in the transmission it is their individual users who are the only ones that can be prosecuted under copyright infringement laws (though Kazaa is being prosecuted in many countries for delivering the means to commit a crime which is in itself a criminal offense if those means were distributed with the knowledge the main or only use they were to be used for is crime as is clearly the case with Kazaa who themselves advertise their product as allowing people to share their CD collection and download unlimited music from others).
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
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Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
If you spent a year working on a program that you intended to sell and which people were more than willing to pay for...


Actually Tom, I want to download only the legal songs!..
Even Ashok also mentioned the same when i asked about downloading the songs from the Russsian site...
Well!.. trying to be good!..
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
I did some more research into allofMp3's business model to find out how they are legally selling tracks at such inexpensive rate. Here is a link to an interesting read. Interview with CIO of allOfMp3.com

The situation is that, ROMS, the Russian equivalent of RIAA does not really care what RIAA thinks. It has its own rules, which is in the interest of Russian public and revenue generation for themselves, they have issues a one hundred percent legal license to allOfMp3.com to sell music after paying the track loyalty as per the ROMS rules. Now, RIAA want to sue allOfMp3�s a*se, but they can�t, because ROMS don�t care what RIAA thinks. AllOfMP3 says they are set-up legally under for Russian law to provide world music to Russian users. International users use them, and they have nothing to do with that.

I guess its now down to individual�s conscience � From RIAA�s pov its illegal, from ROMS point of view, its perfectly legal, and from ordinary users point of view RIAA is a rip-off, so why respect them!?

I guess it's entirely up to you Balaji!
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
like I said, Russia has legalised music piracy.
Their service is legal inside Russia but posession of goods sold by them is likely ILlegal in most other countries.

It's like posession of artifacts made from endangered animals. In the countries those artifacts are produced they're legal but if you bring them home from your trip they're likely to be confiscated by customs and you will face a fine and/or jailtime for having them in your posession.
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Well, not its ebay's turn - here's a newsweek article. link
Warren Dew
blacksmith
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Joined: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 1332
    
    2
Ashok Mash:

Now, RIAA want to sue allOfMp3�s a*se, but they can�t, because ROMS don�t care what RIAA thinks.

They couldn't sue Kazaa successfully either. What they do do is sue the thieves who are actually downloading the music illegally. That would include users of allOfMp3 who aren't in Russia (though RIAA would probably only work with the ones in the U.S.)

By the way, does your .sig get the user's IP address server side or client side? If the former, it looks like JavaRanch has a significant security hole....
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Warren Dew:
By the way, does your .sig get the user's IP address server side or client side? If the former, it looks like JavaRanch has a significant security hole....


I was politely asked to remove that .sig, but its here link.

I think it displays users own IP, like your IP when you view the page and mine when I view it; I don�t think its JR server IP. Its pretty harmless really, but I guess it meets its purpose well � to make web users aware that they are never be too careful on the net!

PS: Sorry, I think I didn�t completely understand your there. My answer is, I don't know. I would imagine it gets it at the client-side, because similar signatures (from danasoft) seem to be working in thousands of BB's (their claim)!
[ July 16, 2004: Message edited by: Ashok Mash ]
Jeff Langr
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2003
Posts: 762
Originally posted by Balaji Loganathan:
Eventhough i used it [paypal] for few times, i found it safe (atleast feel like).


A number of paypal "horror story" sites exist (paypalwarning.com, paypalsucks.com, ...). I have no idea if the stories are true, but some of the material was disturbing enough. Buying through paypal is likely as safe as using a credit card anywhere else (they apparently have had problems with employees). Selling through paypal is another matter entirely.


Books: Agile Java, Modern C++ Programming with TDD, Essential Java Style, Agile in a Flash. Contributor, Clean Code.
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Ashok, that thing simply takes the IP address and browser info from the HTTP request which requests the image and generates the image on the fly.

That info is included in the request as standard. If there is no IP address in the request the server can't know where to send its answer to, it's exactly the same as needing to give someone your address if you want a reply from them to your letter you send them using the mail.

Why that would be a warning for people to be careful I don't know, it's just a scare tactic by conspiracy theorists aimed squarely at people who don't know how networks used aimed at making them think the server sending that image magically is able to get onto their computers and find out whatever it wants.

It's no different from the old iframe which loads c:\ to show the content of your computer's main harddisk embedded in a page which is a trick that used to be used by some companies selling software to "protect" people from snooping.

Jeff, I've met several people who reported having bad experiences with Paypal themselves including cleaned out accounts and even cleaned out bank accounts.
Their terms of service appoint themselves as prosecution, defense, judge and jury in any disputes without possibility of appeal to the decision. As those are a legally binding contract they can do whatever they wish with your money and you have no way to effectively complain...
For example, they reserve the right to lock your account and take funds out of it if they have reason to believe that funds you received were transferred from a suspect source. Unlike a credit card company you have no protection whatsoever in case you're defrauded (while they do charge you a percentage which is higher than creditcard services charge which do include such protection).
[ July 20, 2004: Message edited by: Jeroen Wenting ]
Jeff Langr
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2003
Posts: 762
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Jeff, I've met several people who reported having bad experiences with Paypal themselves including cleaned out accounts and even cleaned out bank accounts.
Their terms of service appoint themselves as prosecution, defense, judge and jury in any disputes without possibility of appeal to the decision. As those are a legally binding contract they can do whatever they wish with your money and you have no way to effectively complain...


Jeroen--

That's exactly the sort of story you'll find on the sites I listed above. Note that these stories mostly apply to those accepting money through Paypal, not to people sending money (purchasing items) with it.

This very morning I received an email that invites me to be a plaintiff in a class action lawsuit against Paypal. If you opened a Paypal account from 1999 through 2004, you may be eligible. I haven't read it yet, so I'm not sure what the charge is. I doubt that I'll bother. See http://www.paypal.com/settlement.

I closed my account shortly after reading many of the horror stories. I was particularly unnerved since I had backed the account with a check card directly to my main account, which had a good amount of cash in it. I'm disappointed, since I'm trying to sell some junk on eBay which heavily promotes the use of PayPal. I'm trying Western Union's Auction Payments as an alternative.

-Jeff-
[ July 29, 2004: Message edited by: Jeff Langr ]
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

Ashok Mash wrote:Paypal is relatively secure and its much secure than giving your credit card to a restaurant waiter who goes away with the card and does god-knows-what, and returns it after 10 minutes, whcih we all do time to time!


Relative to giving it to a waiter, yes, its more secure.

Long ago, in an Internet far away, I worked at CyberCash, we invented Internet commerce. We used serious cryptography and protocols and it was far more secure than SSL or other things in common usage today.

We offered serious security with so-so user experiences.
PayPal offered so-so security with much better user experiences.

PayPal was sold for billions of dollars, CyberCash went bankrupt.

Which leads to the CyberCash law: users want convenience, not security. They will not trade convenience for security, even when we are dealing with real money.
Martin Vajsar
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 22, 2010
Posts: 3606
    
  60

Regarding PayPal security: I do use PayPal, but I haven't given it my CC number - I send some money using wire transfer to my account at PayPal and use that to pay (small sums admittedly, but it would be enough for music - if some legal music site accepted PayPal, that is). So I risk only the amount I've sent there, which is acceptable to me.

My bank has recently started a service which requires SMS authorization for any online CC payment. I'm still not decided, but I would consider using CC on internet with such authorization - after all, I use the same authorization for my internet banking.
Jesper de Jong
Java Cowboy
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Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 14074
    
  16

Note that this is a very old thread (started in 2004).


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Pat Farrell
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Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

Opps, I didn't mean to wake the dead.
Perhaps a mod should close it.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Legal online music store
 
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