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C++

ParagS Kulkarni
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Joined: Oct 04, 2004
Posts: 60
Is C++ dead?
or replaced by Java?
I think no...


Thanks, Parag
Vijay Vaddem
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Joined: Feb 13, 2004
Posts: 243
Neither of them are correct
Peter Rooke
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Joined: Oct 21, 2004
Posts: 794

I don't think so either. My view is that, while Java itself is great, my one problem is entity beans, as they added too much complexity. Of course, I do accept that there will always be complexities due to the nature of the problems they are trying to solve.

Xdoclet and IDE's help:

[Taken from www.theserverside.com; Conceived by Jason Carreira]
Hopefully EJB3 will make things simpler.

C is also still going strong, look at Linux (and other operating systems).
I cannot see SQL being replaced for while either.

My only worry: is that: 'In the background, I always hear, MicoSwipe's C#, Rushing near!'
[ November 29, 2004: Message edited by: Peter Rooke ]

Regards Pete
Gerald Davis
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 872
I don't see C++ dying anytime soon. so long as it stays faster then java.. C ,c++ is used in combination with a scripting language like VB, Python, and perl. so it is best of both worlds execution speed and rapid appliction development. The jack of all trades and the master of none,Java, will find it hard to compete.

When scripting languages like perl start using java librarys instead of c++, then maybe C++ will be on its way out.

The speed of Java is catching up to C,C++ and one day it could be the facto de standerd for low level programming.
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
C++ is alive and kicking.
Like Java its demise has been hailed many times but never come to pass.


42
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

If you read the trade rags closely you get a lot of silly forecasts. If those magazines were right even half of the time, some of the following would be true:

The last mainframe would have shut down in 1992.
The Dvorak keyboard would have overtaken QWERTY keyboards by 1995.
IBM would have acquired Sun in 1996.
Speech recognition would have replaced the keyboard by 2000.
The Compaq/DEC merger would have turned the industry upside down.
Nobody would buy a handheld that "only plays music" (iPod).

and the list goes on.

The full fact of the matter is that no technology worth talking about ever gets completely replaced -- superceded in popular use, perhaps. But the industry never seeks to fully replace anything that has a practical use. This is tantamount to standing still, which is death to new technical innovation.

COBOL, for that matter, still enjoys wide and practical application. Not until the needs that drive its use go away will you see the technology sent to the graveyard.


Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
Don Stadler
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Joined: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 451
As an old C++ hacker I must register the strongest protest! C++ is not 'Meaningless Drivel', and only a callow Java partisan barely out of the crib could possibly believe so!

I just recieved the strongest possible confirmation of the value of arcana (or old farts if you prefer). I went in for an xP contract role today and the selling point was that I know Informix. Informix! A database which was once the least of the 'Big 3' circa 1988 or so. In the days before Oracle acquired the rights to the word 'database' and before all the great free DB's of more recent times. Seems this outfit actually prefersold farts....

Isn't that strange?....
Jeff Bosch
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Joined: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 804
Not all computing is done in the IT world, a fact many colleges seem to ignore.

C++ is still very strong in special-purpose computing like point-of-sale systems because developers need very tight control over the device operations;

C is still very strong in embedded systems because it's small and is one of the few "high-level" languages that can compile to run on small 8-bit microcontrollers with as little as 256 bytes (yes, bytes!) of program memory or as much as several megabytes of memory on a 64-bit system. C is very very flexible.

COBOL is still very strong in government and business, especially where large systems of legacy code would be prohibitively expensive to replace, especially with the unstable, ever-changing language like Java. COBOL (Crappy Obsolete Boring Old Language) is extremely stable, having only undergone three revisions in 40 years, as opposed to Java, which has undergone 2 (or 5, depending on how you count it) major revisions since its inception. COBOL's babysitter, JCL (Job Control Language), is also alive and kicking. You haven't been properly bored to tears until you've written JCL.

As the old saw goes, proper tool for a proper job. Java has its place. So does C, assembly, COBOL, Ada, etc.

And, no, C does not need to interact with scripts. The two forms are unrelated.


Give a man a fish, he'll eat for one day. Teach a man to fish, he'll drink all your beer.
Cheers, Jeff (SCJP 1.4, SCJD in progress, if you can call that progress...)
peter wooster
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Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by Jeff Bosch:
... COBOL (Crappy Obsolete Boring Old Language) ...


It actually stood for "Cannot Operate Because Of Limitations".
Peter Rooke
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Joined: Oct 21, 2004
Posts: 794

Glad Informix was mentioned [by Don Stadler]. I used Informix 4GL for years; it complied down into C with embedded SQL - very fast and efficient.
Informix still is a great database engine, written in C on Unix / Linux. It never really crashed, or caused any problems. I've seen Informix database servers that that had a uptime of more than two years. Sadly, I get the feeling IBM will strip Informix technologies for there DB2 product.

Informix still lives on however, the cloudscape code is the base a new Apache project [maybe] : The Apache Derby Project

BASIC => Boring Annoying Stupid Inefficient Crud!
[ December 03, 2004: Message edited by: Peter Rooke ]
Gerald Davis
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 872
Can you dig it Peter Rooke.

I don't know anything about this Informix but I bet it is less bloatware the java is now. Is java a prime example of code reuse? I think not!
Most 4GL, use C under the hood, and they contain conciderably less bloatware then java.

Type into google bloatware, java, and a language of your choice. I bet you java gets most of the stick.
Peter Rooke
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Joined: Oct 21, 2004
Posts: 794

There are no jobs in Informix 4GL anymore, most Informix databases have been moved over to Oracle .

I've heard Informix's 4GL is similar to Oracle's database forms based language. IBM was offering evaluation of the SE product, but I think they have stopped.

Java bloatware, it just keeps getting bigger. Maybe this is an improvement but I'm not convinced yet.
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
The only reason Java appears bloated compared to other languages is because it has a lot of things as standard that in other languages has to be added afterwards.

Strip away the regexp, utils, net, swing, awt, sql, and javax packages (which are all packages containing stuff not in C for example) and you don't have a very large language left.

You'll still be able to write the same way you could in C, by building everything you need that's not in the core language yourself or by getting it from 3rd parties.
Java just happens to have a rather larger library of components that ships with it than most languages...
Gerald Davis
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 872
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
The only reason Java appears bloated compared to other languages is because it has a lot of things as standard that in other languages has to be added afterwards.

Strip away the regexp, utils, net, swing, awt, sql, and javax packages (which are all packages containing stuff not in C for example) and you don't have a very large language left.

You'll still be able to write the same way you could in C, by building everything you need that's not in the core language yourself or by getting it from 3rd parties.
Java just happens to have a rather larger library of components that ships with it than most languages...


Interesting point, Java did start of very small with it applets then as newer version came , it got bigger.

The Python language has all these features, some of its features are better then java's, if not much easier to use. On the negative side, I did look check how big my python directory and wows behold it manage to bloat up to 45mb in size. Most of it is due to the wxWidget 25mb GUI I installed. But it is vastly superiors to swing in all departments, I would be brought to tears if I had to use swing for the application I am working on even if I was using Jython.

I wonder what size java 5 is before it is uncompressed to a directory, but it seems that you have more of a point then I thought you did.

I still believe the future of application development is with a high-level language, only reverting to C, C++ or Java as reusable libraries or frameworks or servers like EJB.
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Describe "highlevel language"?

If you mean something like VB but without access to the code I seriously doubt it.

Such tools (as they're not languages, underneath they all generate code in some language like C++, Java, Pascal or basic) will never replace handwritten code.

The end of coding has been predicted too often.
15-20 years ago it was predicted that within 10 years noone would write a single line of code, everything would be just plugging components together using property editors and drag and drop.

The same has pretty much been repeated several times a year ever since, yet it hasn't come to pass (in fact the prevalence of such tools seems to be going down rather than up).

The reason is simple: these tools cannot replace code, they cannot create business logic.
And those few that can generate the sweeping overview of an application from some UML diagram can still not create the details.

And even if they could, someone still has to create those tools.

I've worked with Delphi, VB, Visual Age, and several others.
Unless you get your hands dirty on coding the applications created with them just don't scale and are impossible to create.
Nice for something built during a demonstration session to a corporate procurement manager (which is how these tools get into companies usually), useless for realworld use.
Don't get me wrong, I love Delphi and it's an extremely powerful environment, but the idea of just dragging and dropping components to get a large business application is just that, a dream.

I've seen tools meant for business analysts to create entire EJB based systems with frontend and backend by just inputting a few diagrams demoed.
Unless the requirements are extremely simplistic (like negate all losses and add the amount to the profit statement as income) there too the user will have to resort to handcoding a lot of stuff in poorly designed generated classes.
Performance of the generated code is usually poor because the code has to be generated using generic rules and therefore with no regard to optimisation for a specific environment.
Maintainability isn't better.

So IMO coding won't disappear. It WILL change, the emphasis on user interface coding will probably get less as that code is often the easiest that can be generated.
But the generators will get to be a lot better to be able to compete with a smart human, at the moment anyone with a year or two of training at highschool can do better than them with a short course in the language to use.
Gerald Davis
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 872
I agree with you that VB and various rapid application development tools are limited. They generate messes of code underneath and create bloatware very quickly. Drag and drop to create application is not as workable is was expected.

The language of the future are the scripting languages like python are Perl. Unlike VB these languages don't need an IDE to view source code. These languages bring real meaning to the word rapid application development. They can be used as prototypes in the system. When you have proof of concept then you may want to implement parts or all of it in a low level language like Java or C.

This site has much to say about highlevel languages, it will open your eyes.http://www.softpanorama.org/People/scripting_guants.shtml
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
I wouldn't consider languages like Python or Perl highlevel languages.

What is usually called highlevel are 4th generation languages (so the D&D languages) and some 3.5g languages (VB, Delphi, some C++ environments, I guess you can class Java with a visual editor among those).

The difference between a compiled and a scripted language has little to do with the way software is created using it (you're using a text editor anyway, often the same one, whether you use Python or C++).
Gerald Davis
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 872
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
I wouldn't consider languages like Python or Perl highlevel languages.

What is usually called highlevel are 4th generation languages (so the D&D languages) and some 3.5g languages (VB, Delphi, some C++ environments, I guess you can class Java with a visual editor among those).

The difference between a compiled and a scripted language has little to do with the way software is created using it (you're using a text editor anyway, often the same one, whether you use Python or C++).


The choice of language is often more important then programming methodologies(OOP or Procedural). These scripting languages speed up development time significantly, giving you more time to optimise speed, design and features.
 
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