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To our Spanish speakers

Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
Bartender

Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3476

Hi all.
I want to ask our spanish speakers in the ranch..
how to pronounce "ll" ?
like Mestalla, Gallardo, Pollo, caballo ??
(something like : mestaya, gayardo ??)
thanks guys.
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by John Todd:
Hi all.
I want to ask our spanish speakers in the ranch..
how to pronounce "ll" ?
like Mestalla, Gallardo, Pollo, caballo ??
(something like : mestaya, gayardo ??)
thanks guys.


I don't speak Spanish, but I've heard a lot of it spoken by people from all parts of the americas and the pronunciation of LL varies with location. In Mexico it's usually pronounced a bit like a Y in english, in some parts of South America its pronounced more like a Z.
Chris Baron
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
It's pronounced like LLY contracted, with emphasis on the first L.
Mastullyah, Gullyahrdoh, Pollyoh, cahballyoh
cb
[ December 07, 2004: Message edited by: Chris Baron ]
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Chris - according to which Spanish (or Spanish-derived) accent? I really don't think they're alike in this respect. In Mexican (or at least, Sonoran Mexican) "ll" seems to translate as "y". I suspect there's no single answer here; it depends on dialect.


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Chris - according to which Spanish (or Spanish-derived) accent? I really don't think they're alike in this respect. In Mexican (or at least, Sonoran Mexican) "ll" seems to translate as "y". I suspect there's no single answer here; it depends on dialect.


I found this by using google:

"LL is usually pronounced like the "y" in "yellow." There are some regional variations, however. In parts of Spain it has the sound of the "ll" in "million," and in parts of Argentina it has the "zh" sound of "azure." Examples: llama, calle, Hermosillo."
Chris Baron
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Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
@Jim: spanish Spanish

Maybe the best examples is:
like the "lli" Billiard.

But apart from these subtleties, be sure not to pronouce the vowels english-style.

cb
[ December 08, 2004: Message edited by: Chris Baron ]
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
It also depends on where in the word the letter occurrs.

In Calle the entire construct lle is pronounced as a soft i, making the entire word Calle sound like caayh (more or less, think of the South African word braai for barbeque or the Dutch haai for shark).

In Llama it's pronounced as a single rather thick L, think Lh.


42
Ellen Zhao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 581
To John Todd,

How do you usually read "Paella" when you eat it? I heard people read it like the 'y' in the word 'young'.



An den Chris von Mainz,

schon lange nicht gesehen. Sehr angenehm, da� Sie wieder da sind. Wie geht es Ihnen?


ez aus kl
Chris Baron
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
Hallo Ellen
danke, mir geht es gut! Ich arbeite seit längeren in einem Projekt.
Deshalb war ich nur selten hier.
Grüße,
Christian
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Y or J == LL

For South America and Carribean (Puerto Rico, Cuba, etc), pronounce as English "Y" in yellow or as "J" in Joe. The "J" is more common in Puerto Rico, but amazingly my Cuban spanish teacher said that either is perfectly understandable and that she actually could not distinguish between the two sounds until coming to the US.

She related an amusing incident when she was a new teacher in where the children discovered she could not distinguish between the words "yellow" and "jello" since they sounded the same to her. The children would say "Ms Martinez, thats a nice jello dress" and then the entire class would burst into laughter and she couldn't understand why. Also the "b" and "v" sounds are sometimes the same, so the children also had fun with "vowels" and "bowels"
[ December 08, 2004: Message edited by: herb slocomb ]
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Never heard any spanish speaker from no matter what country pronounce ll like lh, even if word starts with ll. The "j like in Joe"-theory appears correct to me. Spelling of hardcore Argentinians might sound a bit like "tsh" or "dsh". Its simple to spell. The rr stuff is way much harder.

Axel
[ December 08, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
I speak some Spanish and know that LL is pronounced as a "Y".
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
And what region did the Spanish you speak come from, Jesse? I don't believe there is a single answer to this question - the accent depends on region. As most of the previous posts have established.
Alan Wanwierd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 624
..and dont forget that in Welsh the "Ll" is a strange sound somewhere in between the sound someone makes when trying to cough up a big lump of phlem whilst simulateously swallowing their own tongue!!!

(Unfortunately I cannot think of a single example of the same sound in any other language!)
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Well if we're bringing in Welsh :roll: , I think I can provide another example that's a bit closer to Spanish in its linguistic descent...

In Italian "gli" (as in "consigliere" for those of you who watched The Godfather) is roughly analogous to intervocalic "ll" in Spanish. It's pronounced approximately as "lyee" (i.e., like intervocalic "ll" in Castilian, which Chris calls "Spanish Spanish"), except you have to really exaggerate the 'y' and the "ee", and put them together very quickly. ("It's easy of you swallow your tongue.") If you ask an Italian whether "gli" == "l" + "y" + "ee", they will probably say no, you're not doing it right. Don't listen to them. If you run the three sounds together quickly enough, they will tell you your pronunciation is excellent. In general Italian is a fairly simple language to learn for an English-speaker. (Not to say it's easy, but it's easi[i]er[i] than any other language except maybe Spanish or something like Esperanto.) But the "gli" sound is the one bit that takes awhile to get right, unless you've got a good teacher.
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
correction: I mixed up my german spelling of joe with english spelling. Of course its y. And in spain they spell it like this, too. Only ones who spell paella like pa-el-ya are german tourists.
Its very simple sound not like the "gli"-thing Jim mentioned about italian.
Know only that Argentinians spell it more like J in Joe (dsh).
[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
And Dutch tourists
Of course there are differences between Castillian and Catalan...
Chris Baron
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
Grrr ,
Y is a good and easy replacement for english speakers. And spanish has a lot of dialects. But, call me hairsplitter, if you try to pronouce it perfectly it's:
lly but like one single sound (contracted).
pa-e-llya

cb
[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Chris Baron ]
Ellen Zhao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 581
I believe the "paella" I heard was in Catalan. Catalan is said different from the spanish Spanish,it's somehow a mixture of Latin and Italian and...I don't know...I'm curious about how is "paella" in spanish Spanish, since I'm passionate about that food.
[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Ellen Zhao ]
Ricardo Polero Baraldi
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 26
I�m native spanish spoken:

So "ll" is like "double l"
Them "paella" you�ll pronunce "pae" and sound close to "ya".
Chears
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Ellen and Christian: You should go to some local drugstore to buy those one:
hardware link
Question to Ricardo (or other authorative spanish speakers):
Is there any dialect where 'll' spelled like heart by Ellen and Christian?
pael-ya (except dialect of german or dutch tourists?)
Does 'll' even exist in Catalan? And if it exists. How is it spelled?
[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Chris Baron
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
Ok Axel,

Originally posted by Ricardo Polero Baraldi:
"ll" is like "double l"... and sound close to "ya".


looks to me like LLY

You shouldn't use Q-Tips, you just compress your earwax with them...

cb
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Originally posted by Chris Baron:
Ok Axel,

You shouldn't use Q-Tips, you just compress your earwax with them...

cb

Chris, mi o�do simplemente no es tema de la discusi�n.
Lo que nos preocupan aqu� son los de Ellen, el de Jeroen as� como el tuyo.
[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
And what region did the Spanish you speak come from, Jesse? I don't believe there is a single answer to this question - the accent depends on region. As most of the previous posts have established.


Chicago! I learned Spanish in school.
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

Chris, mi o�do simplemente no es tema de la discusi�n.
Lo que nos preocupan aqu� son los de Ellen, el de Jeroen as� como el tuyo.

[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]


�Odio hacia qui�n?
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:


Chicago! I learned Spanish in school.


Me in Cologne, Andalusia, Madrid, Barcelona, Cuba, Argentina and Chile. And in all of those places (except Argentina) they spell ll like y.
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Ellen Zhao:
I believe the "paella" I heard was in Catalan. Catalan is said different from the spanish Spanish,it's somehow a mixture of Latin and Italian and...I don't know...I'm curious about how is "paella" in spanish Spanish, since I'm passionate about that food.

[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Ellen Zhao ]


Spanish is not a mixture of Italian and Latin. Primarily, Latin is the basis for Spanish, Italian, French, and maybe Portuguese as well. As a result, Spanish sounds very similar to Italian and vice versa.
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Axel Janssen:


Me in Cologne, Andalusia, Madrid, Barcelona, Cuba, Argentina and Chile. And in all of those places (except Argentina) they spell ll like y.


In your opinion, which Spanish speaking country has the most easy to understand accent? Also, which has the most elegant? Is Castellano a type of Spanish?

Even though I like to think that I am fluent in Spanish, I need subtitles if I watch an Argentinean movie. Argentina's Spanish accent sounds much like Italian.
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
o�do not odio. How could I hate my german-west-of-rhein-river co-ranchers.
Para ti puede que sea buen idea dejar controlar tus ojos

I like chilean spanish best, because I had best time there.
Was quite hard to understand first, but one get used to it quickly. Its not only the pronunciation but also that they are introducing a lot of words of their own (in Argentina too). For example in Chile they allways use 'cabro chico' instead of 'ni�o'.
Cuban spanish is hardest to understand, I think.
In all parts of spain except the very south they do some elaborated lisp-stuff with some of the s-sounds, which is quite fancy, but I can't.
Barcelona as part of Catalunya has own language (Catal�n). This is a highly political issue. They promote it a lot.
'Castellano' is another term for 'espa�ol'. This is also political. I think the regions, which does not speak spanish but catal�n, asturian language or basque language (last one completly different) prefer the term "castellano" to show that in spain there is not only spanish but also their languages. Also latin americans prefer castellano.
[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Chris Baron
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
quizás hablas lo mucho mejor, pero pronuncio lo un pocito mejor

And you are right, in the end my tounge acrobatics sound very close to a Y
cb
[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Chris Baron ]
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
o�do not odio. How could I hate my german-west-of-rhein-river co-ranchers.
Para ti puede que sea buen idea dejar controlar tus ojos

I like chilean spanish best, because I had best time there.
Was quite hard to understand first, but one get used to it quickly. Its not only the pronunciation but also that they are introducing a lot of words of their own (in Argentina too). For example in Chile they allways use 'cabro chico' instead of 'ni�o'.
Cuban spanish is hardest to understand, I think.
In all parts of spain except the very south they do some elaborated lisp-stuff with some of the s-sounds, which is quite fancy, but I can't.
Barcelona as part of Catalunya has own language (Catal�n). This is a highly political issue. They promote it a lot.
'Castellano' is another term for 'espa�ol'. This is also political. I think the regions, which does not speak spanish but catal�n, asturian language or basque language (last one completly different) prefer the term "castellano" to show that in spain there is not only spanish but also their languages. Also latin americans prefer castellano.

[ December 09, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]


Oops, I confused Oido and Odio. OUCH! Sorry about that.
Chris Baron
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 1049
ojos...
hmm, i remember there was the danger of ambiguit  with it...
or was it ocho?

cb
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Me thinks that quite a few of our MD population are a bit overworked. This combined with the current coldness of the northern hemisphere... :roll:
Ellen, Chris and Jeroen hear things which just aren't there in the real world.
Poor Jesse see things which are not there. In Chicago it must be very, very, very cold. Saw pictures from Wisconsin (just a bit up to the north), where I have lots of relatives.

Or maybe its start of the anounced worldwide gripe epidemie.
Aliens have occupied their brains.

I am a bit worried

Axel
[ December 10, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Ellen Zhao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 581
Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

Ellen, Chris and Jeroen hear things which just aren't there in the real world.


Ach, paella is not in the real world. It's so, so hurting.

I am a bit worried



Cute Axel I'm worried about you.
[ December 10, 2004: Message edited by: Ellen Zhao ]
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
which real world?
Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
Bartender

Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3476

SOrry guys for being late, I have some problems with my modem....
any way, I have a CD for learning Spanish (spanish spanich not mexican spanish )
Pollo pronounced Polyo
Cabllo pronounced cabaylo
Gallardo pronounced gayyardo
but as I know ll pronounced ya as our rancher Ricardo Polero Baraldi said.
learning Spanich is essential as some people that Spanish is the language of God
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Originally posted by John Todd:
SOrry guys for being late, I have some problems with my modem....
any way, I have a CD for learning Spanish (spanish spanich not mexican spanish )

You don't save money if you buy cheap training material. :roll:
Perhaps its produced german tourist
Or by some folks who live in some remote, north-eastern part and don't know themselves proper spelling.
And you present us 3 different spellings:
ly, yl and yy

Or it could be that with knowing those rules you are able to impress some cientifics from Real Academia for the language.
It defitivedly fails "Head First"-test for brain-friendliness.

Use "y" and better concentrate on the "rr" which is difficult to learn and people really understand you better if you at least manage it a bit.

Axel
 
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