Occasionally we have a thread in here about language and slang in different countries. One unusual word I see used a lot on JavaRanch is freshers. I gather a fresher is a novice programmer, perhaps a new graduate. Is this used anywhere outside of English-speaking India? If I weren't a regular here and someone came to me asking "How much do you pay freshers?" I'd have to say "We don't do any 'freshing' here -- whatever that is!"
Excerpt: At universities in the United Kingdom the term fresher is used to describe new students.
Maybe the IT boom in India, which saw many IT companies employing new graduates, extended the meaning of "fresher" to include them also.
To me, "Fresher" refers to new students joining college, and also people who are joining an employment for the very first time, "fresh out of college", so to speak. It does not refer to folks who are merely "novice programmers". [ August 11, 2005: Message edited by: kayal cox ]
Huh! OK. I was unaware of this. In the US, traditional names for the four classes of both high school and university students in the US are
Freshman Sophomore Junior Senior
and we do sometimes say "freshman" in some other contexts; for instance, a first-year government representative is sometimes called a "freshman Senator". You'd never say a "freshman" to mean "a new graduate", though -- it means sort of the opposite. And you'll never hear "fresher" used in any context whatsoever. But in any case, it's odd that I didn't make this association myself.
Joined: Aug 19, 2004
Personally, I prefer the term "fresher" over the politically incorrect "freshman" or politically correct "freshperson"
My wife and I both work at a midwestern university in the US, and have a lot of interaction with students, and neither of us have heard of fresher before! I am thirty, and I have been threatened with my life if I reveal my wife's age (although we were both born in the same year ).
Perhapse it is a term that is just starting to come to the US from the UK... [ August 11, 2005: Message edited by: Paul Bourdeaux ]
“Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.” - Rich Cook
I would assume it's just that "Rookie" is rather close to his own last name. Note that "peter" is already a slang term. (But, hey - it's no worse than beeing named Richard.)
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Originally posted by Jim Yingst: I would assume it's just that "Rookie" is rather close to his own last name. Note that "peter" is already a slang term. (But, hey - it's no worse than beeing named Richard.)
Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill: In the US, traditional names for the four classes of both high school and university students in the US are
Freshman Sophomore Junior Senior
Ah! This was something that had always confused me whenever I'd watch US TV programmes or films. The characters would mentions something like "Sophomore" and I'd be thinking "WTF is that?". I guessed that each year had a name, but had no idea which year was what. At least that was better then when I thought "sophomore" was something to do with standing on a hill and waving flags around.....
The other confusing thing when hearing Americans discuss education is the use of the word "school". It seems as if "school" can refer to university as well in the US, where as in the UK "school" only ever refers to pre-university education. It sounds a bit odd to hear someone in their twenties talking about having just finished school!
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Joined: Dec 14, 2004
So, in England and Wales the traditional education route is:
11-16 - School - otherwise known as Secondary school - you get exams when you are 16, normally in about ten subjects, which give you basic qualifications called GCSE's
16-18 - College - sometimes called sixth form - you get exams at the end of two years usually in three of four subjects at A-level (Advanced level)
18-21 - University - undergraduate degree usually
21-22 - University - postgraduate degree - also called masters degree (MBA. MSc etc.)
22+ - University - research / doctorate / PHD
So school is until 16, college until 18 and university 18+
How does it work in other countries. [ August 12, 2005: Message edited by: Rick Beaver ]
I heard a story about a poor solider with a surname of "who": Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM): "Name?" Recuit Who: "Who, Sir" RSM: "NAME?" Recuit Who: "Who, Sir" RSM: "YOU, NAME?" Recruit Who: "WHO, Sir" RSM (Pointing his stick): "NAME?" Recruit Who: "Recruit Who, Sir?" RSM (Waving his stick around violently): "YOU, NAME?" Recruit Who: "Recruit WHO, Sir - spelt W-H-O!"
Almost similar here.Little difference at step 3 and 4. 18-21 - University - undergraduate degree usually BSc,BCom,BA 18-22 - University - undergraduate degree usually BE/BTech in Engg. 21-23 -MSc(Math/Geology/Physics etc) after BSc 21-23-MA/MCom after BCom 22-24-MTech/ME After BE/BTech 24+ PHd etc [ August 12, 2005: Message edited by: Arjunkumar Shastry ]
Originally posted by Rick Beaver: How does it work in other countries.
Kids start in kindergarden at age 5 or 6.
5-16 : "public school", 0-9th grade. Some take 10th grade before moving on to highschool/work, while others goto straight to highschool/pick up a trade ect. 16-19: "highschool/college" (called Gymnasium in danish) 19-24: university, it's not very normal that you stop after your bachelor degree. 24-27: ph.d.
It's however not very normal that you graduate at 24. Alot take a "sabbath" year after highschool, and/or take 6 years to finish their masters.
Well here's where it gets a bit confusing. Some universities are split into colleges who have a fair degree ( ) of independence. My degree is from the University Of London, but my course was based entirely in Goldsmiths College. This meant I would say things like "I'm off to college", but I was actually referring to my university. In a similar way, King's is one of the colleges which make up the University of Cambridge.
Originally posted by Rick Beaver: So, in the UK the traditional education route is: ...
That should read "So, in England the traditional education route is:"
In Scotland Secondary education last a year longer (and the school year is around eight days longer in Scotland than it is in England). There is no such thing as a Sixth Form college in Scotland. Your undergraduate degree will last four year, not three (and, though you didn't mention it, you will not be asked to pay any tuition fees, if you are Scottish).
Grade or "primary" school: Grades 1-5 or 1-6, Ages 6-10 or 6-11
Junior high school: Grades 6-8 or 7-8, ages 11-13 or 12-13. The boundary between primary school and junior high school is often determined by local budgets and the size of the available school buildings!
High or "secondary" school: Grades 9-12 (freshman, sophomore, junior, senior), ages 14-17
There are free public schools available to everyone in grades 1-12, and usually Kindergarten as well (although I understand it's being eliminated due to budget concerns in some localities.) It's the law that you have to go to school until age 16. Then you can "drop out," which pretty much ruins your life economically. Still, an unfortunate percentage of people take this option. It's a significant problem in lower-income school districts.
Then there is "higher education" -- i.e., "college". In the U.S. you'll say someone is "in college" meaning they're at a University or College. This is 2 years for a "Junior college", leading to an Associates degree, or 4 years in a regular college leading to a Bachelor's degree (again, those same four names are used for the four years.) So you're typically 21 or 22 when you graduate. An Associate's or Bachelor's degree is never free -- even at State-sponsored colleges, you have to pay at least a nominal amount.
After you've got a Bachelor's, you can take a Masters (usually a two-year program) or a Ph.D (usually 4-5 years.) In some disciplines, a Master's is a respected goal of its own, while in many others, it's what you get if you drop out of a Ph.D. program (this is especially true in natural sciences.) In contrast to getting a Bachelor's degree, getting a Ph.D. is often free -- you work as a teaching assistant or research fellow and have your tuition waived.
Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill: Junior high school: Grades 6-8 or 7-8, ages 11-13 or 12-13. The boundary between primary school and junior high school is often determined by local budgets and the size of the available school buildings!
When I was growing up, Junior High School was grades 7, 8, and 9. My daughter went to Middle School, grades 6, 7, and 8.
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Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill: In contrast to getting a Bachelor's degree, getting a Ph.D. is often free -- you work as a teaching assistant or research fellow and have your tuition waived.
Question: Isn't it hard to be accepted into a doctorial study, or do you accept more candidates in order to increase the research done in the US? as for Denmark, your supposed to be a either an A-student or have proven to be a good researcher while making for masters thesis.
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Yes, it's generally pretty competitive, some schools more than others, of course. Only a small fraction of people are educated at this level. My understanding is that something like 85% of adults have a high-school diploma, but only 25-30% have a college degree, and well under 10% get a Ph.D.
Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill: Yes, it's generally pretty competitive, some schools more than others, of course. Only a small fraction of people are educated at this level. My understanding is that something like 85% of adults have a high-school diploma, but only 25-30% have a college degree, and well under 10% get a Ph.D.
Wow. That's an accurate understanding! The high-school diploma is closer to 75% though (as of last decade).
I think that's a very poor graph. The education levels should be listed with the highest on the bottom so that it is easier to see the cummulative percentages at each level. Of course, this assumes that everyone that has a Bachelor degree also has a high school diploma, which isn't always necessarily the case.
In Norway you usually have to complete a bachelor's degree in order to apply for a master's program, however you can apply for a full 5 year Master's program straight out of secondary education. You have to complete a master's program before you can apply to a Ph.D. program (or be considered for any serious research at all, whether or not it is in the context of a Ph.D.).
Bachelor's programs are generally 3 years, Master's are usually 2 years, and a Ph.D. depends on your research and how long it takes to write the thesis. Some people spend a very long time on it. Then you have post-doctorate studies.
In most of the US, a University is composed of multiple colleges. So say at Va Tech (which is officially named Virginia Polytechnic Institution and State University) there are colleges of Engineering, Agriculture, Science, etc.
When I was an undergrad, many decades ago, my advisor said that a MS is a terminal degree. You enter the program, get the degree and have all of the practical knowledge that you would need in the field. A Doctorate, PhD, in contrast, was just a credential to a lifetime of learning, you would enter the PhD program, study, and get the Doctorate. No Masters needed. But, if you failed, and could not get your Thesis published, you were awarded a Masters as a booby prize.
I went to graduate school more than a decade after I got my BS, and at that University, they really wanted you to formally get the MS, even though it was technically not required for the PhD. With careful course selection, you could count all of your Masters-level classes for your PhD's coursework requirements. Then, you could take just a few doctoral level classes, and do your comps, proposal and dissertation. As fate would have it, I went for the PhD, and never finished my dissertation, so I got a MS booby prize.