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Human Development Index

Jayesh Lalwani
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Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
PDF report


The human development index (HDI) is a composite
index that measures the average achievements
in a country in three basic dimensions
of human development: a long and healthy life,
as measured by life expectancy at birth; knowledge,
as measured by the adult literacy rate and
the combined gross enrolment ratio for primary,
secondary and tertiary schools; and a decent standard
of living, as measured by GDP per capita in
purchasing power parity (PPP) US dollars.


Norway is # 1. US is #10, Japan is #11, UK is #15

India is #127. We managed to beat Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh, and most of Africa.
Dave Lenton
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Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1241
While the results are a rough indicated of the "achievements" of a country, and seem to give the kind of results that we may expect (for example it is often thought that quality of life in Scandinavian countries is very good), a lot of the measurements are quite subjective. For example - a high literacy rate and high school enrolment levels do not indicate a high level of knowledge. I know a lot of people who can (just about) read and started schooling, but don't know much about the world beyond the end of their nose.

Also GDP per capita is a bit of a strange one. One problem it has is that if it is a mean measurement, a country with a few very high earners and a lot of poor people could give quite high figures. One example is the UK - in the last few years GDP per capita has increased, but at the same time the wealth gap between the rich and the poor has grown. An achievement or not? On the one hand we're better off, but on the other hand we live in a less fair society.

The report also poses an interesting question - how do we measure the "achievement" level of a country? Maybe the best thing to look at would be how happy people are, but that's impossible to measure in any meaningful way. Is this even the aim of a country/state?


There will be glitches in my transition from being a saloon bar sage to a world statesman. - Tony Banks
Chetan Parekh
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Joined: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 3636
Somewhere I read Osho saying this…

Numbers don’t have meaning by themselves. Number required knowledge to interpreter and make meaning out of them. But people who have true knowledge, never run behind numbers, they just love to experience. Numbers are for those who have not yet experienced true knowledge.
[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Chetan Parekh ]

My blood is tested +ve for Java.
Mehul Sanghvi
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Joined: Feb 04, 2002
Posts: 134
This thread has "Nationalistic Comparisions" and it has hurt my feelings!

Andrew Monkhouse
author and jackaroo
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Joined: Mar 28, 2003
Posts: 11278
    
  59

Thank you for the smiley Mehul - based on that we can leave this here for now.

But just so you know: if anyone was upset by this topic (or any other, or a particular post within any topic) they could ask for it to be removed.

Regards, Andrew


The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam with J2SE 5: paper version from Amazon, PDF from Apress, Online reference: Books 24x7 Personal blog
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
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Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
Originally posted by Mehul Sanghvi:
This thread has "Nationalistic Comparisions" and it has hurt my feelings!




I hope you recover


Java Regular Expressions
Axel Janssen
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Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
The abolute comparaision is just one perspective. Other could be relative comparision over time. Taking that focus, India does quite well (improvements are quite big).
Also living conditions of single groups of people in a country (f.ex. software developers) are not only influenced by the overall well being of the country but a group might outperform the average.
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
While the results are a rough indicated of the "achievements" of a country, and seem to give the kind of results that we may expect (for example it is often thought that quality of life in Scandinavian countries is very good), a lot of the measurements are quite subjective. For example - a high literacy rate and high school enrolment levels do not indicate a high level of knowledge. I know a lot of people who can (just about) read and started schooling, but don't know much about the world beyond the end of their nose.

Also GDP per capita is a bit of a strange one. One problem it has is that if it is a mean measurement, a country with a few very high earners and a lot of poor people could give quite high figures. One example is the UK - in the last few years GDP per capita has increased, but at the same time the wealth gap between the rich and the poor has grown. An achievement or not? On the one hand we're better off, but on the other hand we live in a less fair society.

The report also poses an interesting question - how do we measure the "achievement" level of a country? Maybe the best thing to look at would be how happy people are, but that's impossible to measure in any meaningful way. Is this even the aim of a country/state?



I agree with you that as far as "happines" and "prosperity" goes, it's hard to describe those things in quantative terms. However, as far as comparisons go, I think that measuring life span, wealth and education is the closest we can get.

After all, doesn't each country want it's citizens to be healthy, wealthy and wise
Dave Lenton
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Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1241
Originally posted by Jayesh Lalwani:

I agree with you that as far as "happines" and "prosperity" goes, it's hard to describe those things in quantative terms. However, as far as comparisons go, I think that measuring life span, wealth and education is the closest we can get.

Yeah, they're probably good ways of getting a general idea of how well a country has improved, and the progress it is making. The trouble is that the evil monster that is Statistical Analysis can still raise its confusing head.

Imagine two countries, each with a population of ten people. The people in these countries have their quality of life assessed and rated out of ten. The both start off like this:

A few years later another measurement is made and the results are:

Which one has made the best progress? On one hand Country A has made a better improvement in the average quality of life. Its also got some people rated vastly higher then in Country B, and finally the total index is higher. The people in Country B could also argue that their country has done better. They could say that in country A 30% of the population has had a reduction in quality of life, in comparison to country B where no-one is worse off. They could also point to the huge difference between the lowest and highest scores in country A and say that country B has had a much fairer increase.

After all, doesn't each country want it's citizens to be healthy, wealthy and wise

Certainly the first two, but maybe a country may not want the last one if it makes the citizens wise enough to realise if their government is doing something badly
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5370
Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
Also living conditions of single groups of people in a country (f.ex. software developers) are not only influenced by the overall well being of the country but a group might outperform the average.


We often forget that well being of one industry affect all industries.

If I take example of software industry in India, because of IT industry broadly I see that it affects auto-mobile industry, food industry, chemical industry, reat-estate industry, agriculture industry, faishon industry, entertainments industry, aviation industry, plastic inductry, education industry etc.

If I roughly guess then earning of one software professional generates employement for at least 10 other people.
I myself give salary to atleast two people, one is my cook and other is my maid which I could have not afford otherwise.


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
sunitha reghu
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Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Originally posted by R K Singh:


I myself give salary to atleast two people, one is my cook and other is my maid which I could have not afford otherwise.


Life styles of rich "sw" saabs!!!
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5370
Originally posted by Sunitha Raghu:


Life styles of rich "sw" saabs!!!


Dear Ex most of the bachelors in bangalore have cook and maid, and [un]fortunately they continue with them after marriage also

And you know in India 0.001% houses have dish washer so maid is compulsory even if cook is out ..
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by R K Singh:




If I roughly guess then earning of one software professional generates employement for at least 10 other people.
I myself give salary to atleast two people, one is my cook and other is my maid which I could have not afford otherwise.


Hopefully, your salary is enough so that your cook and maid can afford a nice apartment and feed and educate their kids atleast upto Bachelor level.
Roger Johnson
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Joined: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 311
Originally posted by R K Singh:
I myself give salary to atleast two people, one is my cook and other is my maid which I could have not afford otherwise.


cook? good idea! I know nba star T-Mac has a cook in his orlando mansion before.

by the way, who takes care of shopping then?
Ernest Friedman-Hill
author and iconoclast
Marshal

Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 24166
    
  30

Originally posted by R K Singh:

And you know in India 0.001% houses have dish washer so maid is compulsory even if cook is out ..


Things will change. In the US, an inexpensive dishwasher costs about one week's full-time salary at the legal minimum.


[Jess in Action][AskingGoodQuestions]
Axel Janssen
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Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
I even didn't call expert craftsman for the redesign of the water connection of my washing maschine. All by myself. In that special case it sometimes scares me, though. My system is a bit different from standard.
[ September 12, 2005: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Roger Johnson:


cook? good idea! I know nba star T-Mac has a cook in his orlando mansion before.

by the way, who takes care of shopping then?


Why do you think he needs a maid?
Frank Silbermann
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Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1379
Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
... a lot of the measurements are quite subjective. For example - a high literacy rate and high school enrolment levels do not indicate a high level of knowledge... Also GDP per capita is a bit of a strange one. One problem it has is that if it is a mean measurement, a country with a few very high earners and a lot of poor people could give quite high figures. One example is the UK - in the last few years GDP per capita has increased, but at the same time the wealth gap between the rich and the poor has grown. An achievement or not? On the one hand we're better off, but on the other hand we live in a less fair society.

Maybe the best thing to look at would be how happy people are, but that's impossible to measure in any meaningful way. Is this even the aim of a country/state?
I can think of additional issues that complicate such a judgement. Suppose you had two countries, each with people from both Europe and the 3rd world. In one country, both the Europeans and the 3rd worlders might be better off than their counterparts in the other country, yet because they have a higher proportion of 3rd worlders their overall statistics might appear to be lower.

I agree it's not clear whether higher average GDP is better if the distribution of wealth is really bad. But I also would not assume that a more even distribution of wealth is necessarily fairer.

If we base the index on average happiness, then the index will soon be topped by which ever country's medical researchers first learn to create happiness by stimulating the relevant brain tissue using electrodes.
Roger Johnson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 311
Originally posted by Jayesh Lalwani:


Why do you think he needs a maid?


if you hire a cook, that means you spend quite a lot on food.

in US's term, a private cook got to make at least $1,750 / month, i used minimun salary times 8 x 7 x 4 hours.

will you spend $1,000 on raw food material and $1,750 on a cook to cook them for you?

i know i won't. so you spend perhaps ~$5,000 on food each month, whoever hired to do shopping for you, he/she spends a lot of your money. so she/he has better be reliable.
Alan Wanwierd
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 624
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
If we base the index on average happiness, then the index will soon be topped by which ever country's medical researchers first learn to create happiness by stimulating the relevant brain tissue using electrodes.


Surely we can very effectively induce happiness without use of electrodes by the use of pharmacuticals. Unfortunately for us miserable lot, since happy people dont work hard, this might be seen to hamper societies "productivity" which economists seem to care so much about - and so world governments have run relentless campaigns to outlaw widespread use of these pharmacuticals.
Chetan Parekh
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Joined: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 3636
White and black Americans view Hurricane Katrina's aftermath in starkly different ways, with more blacks viewing race as a factor in problems with the federal response, according to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll released Monday.


Source

Compare this with the index that USA has.
Dave Lenton
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Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1241
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
But I also would not assume that a more even distribution of wealth is necessarily fairer.
Indeed, "fair" is extremely subjective, often depending upon if you're going to benefit or loose out by a process of making something fairer

If we base the index on average happiness, then the index will soon be topped by which ever country's medical researchers first learn to create happiness by stimulating the relevant brain tissue using electrodes.

This brings an interesting moral dilemma. If we state that the purpose of a government is to improve the level of happiness in their jurisdiction, and a scientist has invented a Happy-Machine (which can make people 100% happy), then should the government be morally obliged to hook everyone up to the machine?

Something about this seems very odd, so maybe the role of the government isn't to make us happy. Its kind of hard to say what the reason behind the role of the government really is, which is strange considering that lots of us are happy to go and vote for one every few years. Maybe the answer is 42.
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5370
Originally posted by Jayesh Lalwani:
Hopefully, your salary is enough so that your cook and maid can afford a nice apartment and feed and educate their kids atleast upto Bachelor level.


Why to educate upto Bachelor level ???

And what is the definition of nice apartment ??

Even where I am living, is not such a nice place[as per me] but I am living there cause right now I cant afford nice place even for myself.

Why cant we accept a fact that wealth can not be distributed evenly.

And basic necessity would be different for different people.
You might think education is basic necessity, for me mobile is basic necessity and for my maid, it might be food.

AW I dont think there is direct relation between education and wealth.

I think I am hijacking the thead .. :-(
[ September 13, 2005: Message edited by: R K Singh ]
 
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