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Cricketer Shane Watson recently had a ghostly experience in his hotel room in England during the recent Ashes series. Most of the castles in UK are said to be haunted by ghosts. Personally, I am quite frightened of ghosts , especially the female ones . Some who claim to be brave enough still have a fear of ghosts lurking in the corner of the mind. Can there really be anyone who is 100% free of ghost fears???
They have never been duplicated in a strictly controlled scientific experiement.
If you choose to believe something, more power to you. I have never seen or read of anything other than anecdotal evidence by non-trained observers that something happened.
I'm not trying to argue faith, religion, the existance of a God or Gods. You are free to believe what you want, as am I. And i choose to not believe in something unless there is hard evidence in support of it.
So, i stand by my statement of SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. [ October 20, 2005: Message edited by: fred rosenberger ]
Joined: Jul 13, 2005
]So, i stand by my statement of SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
Not Everything can be explained by science. For example , a close friend of mine can exactly spot a location where underground water exists. He says he does it just by intuition!!! Can science explain this???
Perhaps not. But science could measure it. I'll believe in your friend's abilities if you can show me a double-blind study by an outside observer, in which a statistically significant number of spots your friend identified were all drilled, and the success rate measured, and a comparison was made to both random selections and to selections made by a randomly chosen individual. Until then, you're providing anecdotal evidence, which is pretty much worthless.
Have your friend apply at the JREF. Dowsers have been repeated tested and retested. NONE have EVER done statistically better than chance. if your friend can do what he claims, he will be $1million richer.
like Ernest said, science CAN measure things. the JREF doesn't care HOW it's done. They have NO interest in that aspect of the ability. In fact, applications are often rejected because of long, rambling essays of people trying to tell HOW this stuff works.
the JREF doesn't care. They just want to SEE it done, under mutually agreed upon protocols that meet all scientific criteria - double blind tests, baseline tests, etc. And have it be repeatable.
I am not arguing people WANT to believe, or that they DO believe in such things. The mind is VERY strong in persuading itself of things it WANTS to believe.
EVERY person who claims to have an ability who has been subjected to formal testing has shown that the ability wasn't there, on that day. They always come back with "the moon wasn't right" or "the subjects all spoke German" or "my Qi wasn't properly focused". Or my personal favorite, "I'm never wrong, so science must be".
The burden of proof lies with the person who is making such fantastic claims.
Yesterday, I opened my IE browser and along with it everytime the windows calculator pops up on the browser. I tried cleaning the browser cache using anti-spyware, rebooted my windows box several times, but still always found the calculator popping up every single time. Did a google search on "IE + calculator ..." and did not get any relevant results. So finally concluded that if google can't find it, it should be a ghost who does that. :-). Today started the browser and "hurray" no calculator, so confirmed that it was the "Microsoft windows Ghost"( Hope to get $1million from JREF :-) )
Joined: Jul 13, 2005
But science could measure it.
Dinosaurs were wiped out because their numbers increased to a massive proportion unable to handle by the planet!!! Some other species may have existed even before dinosaurs and were wiped out beacause of the same reason. Human race will also meet its end in a similar fashion , because of the increasing burden it is causing on the planet. All these are nature's ways of protecting itself from external influences causing atrocities on it and is controlled by a power greater than physics, chemistry or Maths can explain . [ October 20, 2005: Message edited by: shankar Iyer ]
Joined: Jan 26, 2002
Originally posted by R K Singh:
I think question can be rephrased as
Can there really be anyone who is 100% free of unknown???
But unknown cannot be a ghost. Can be. But no proof. No way to fear. [ October 21, 2005: Message edited by: basha khan ]
Originally posted by shankar Iyer: Dinosaurs were wiped out because their numbers increased to a massive proportion unable to handle by the planet!!!
We don't actually know why the dinosaurs got wiped out. We don't even know if they did (some people think a portion are still around in the form of crocodiles, birds etc). The best theory we have is that a lot of them became extinct. There are several theories as to how this is likely to have happened, and the two most likely appear to be some kind of external astronomical incident (asteroid, solar activity etc) or a change in the climate. I personally haven't seen any scientists support the theory that overpopulation wiped them out, but I guess its possible. Its just not, in my most humble of opinions, the most likely scenario.
Some other species may have existed even before dinosaurs and were wiped out beacause of the same reason.
Possibly. Some species do suffer from over population, but I would guess that the vast majority of extinction events have other factors contributing significantly to them, commonly environmental changes. Often global warming/cooling or changing gas make up of the atmosphere are put forwards as likely theories.
Human race will also meet its end in a similar fashion , because of the increasing burden it is causing on the planet. All these are nature's ways of protecting itself from external influences causing atrocities on it and is controlled by a power greater than physics, chemistry or Maths can explain . [ October 20, 2005: Message edited by: shankar Iyer ]
It need not necessarily be attributed to some "greater power". A common idea in chaos theory is that the more complex a system becomes, the less it takes to change it. Environments are incredibly complex systems, and its not unlikely that they can undergo some fairly dramatic changes given long enough for changes to spread through the system.
We think of our environment as being fairly stable, and because of this consider that changes to it must be very unusual. This view is a bit flawed though because of our consideration of the time scales. The human race has only been around for a very short amount of time in geological terms and already its seem at least one major environmental change (the end of the ice age). If you could fast-forward a view of the earth you would see if continuously changing between hot and cold, and between evenly and unevenly distributed temperature and moisture zones. Its actually quite an actively changing place, so its no surprise that some species can't adapt quick enough and get wiped out.
There will be glitches in my transition from being a saloon bar sage to a world statesman. - Tony Banks
Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Where's all the dinosaur ghosts then?
Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Originally posted by R K Singh: Occult activties are beyond science thats why they are supernatural.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this appears to be a view that the universe has two kinds of things in it - "scientific" stuff which scientists can understand, and "supernatural" stuff which science cannot explain.
Science isn't a class of stuff though, but a technique of measuring things.
There are a great many theories of things which exist. Some people like to see some kind of measured indication of an object's existence before they hold it likely that the object exists. Those that use scientific methods to measure the indication of the objects existence are scientists. They hold it to be a fallacy to declare that an object exists if there are not any reasonable indications to support that view.
There are other people who hold things to be true without using any measurements of proof. This act of holding something to be true without any measured indication existence is not scientific. Often however these people wish to justify their belief in the object to scientists, and declare it to be in a special subset of reality which cannot be proven and is therefore exempt from the scientific method. Could declaring an object as being "supernatural" be a way of trying to avoid scientific scrutiny of the theory?
Is it right or wrong to hold something to be true without reasonable indications of its existence? My own personal view is that it is a fallacy to do so, but at the same time everyone has a right to do so. Just don't expect any people who follow scientific methods to accept that the term "supernatural" or the phrase "my mate told me its true" can be sufficient reason to accept that its likely to exist
Joined: Mar 07, 2005
Supernatural topics are always argueable. But I feel if one agrees that god exists, they shd believe ghost also can exist. MIND is the best example of what science cant explain. It does not mean mind does not exist. There are numerous experiments conducted on human brain to see how mind operates, but scientists are not able to get even 1% breakthrough. Why and How does one dream? Why does 2 kids who may be brothers/sisters have completely differently attitudes? even though they are in a controlled environment. It boils down to perception. And why do each person percieve a single thing differently. If science cant explain these, that means science has its limitations. So if science cant explain ghosts, that does not really mean ghosts cant exist.
Dowsers have been repeated tested and retested. NONE have EVER done statistically better than chance. if your friend can do what he claims, he will be $1million richer.
Perhaps you should speak of something you have practical experience with and not just heard second hand. There would not be a water well Eastern Oregon and likely, not a well, that was not 'witched' or 'dowsed'. I have done it myself many times (I am 70 for 72).
But then I guess a 97.2% success rate could be just luck - rather be lucky than good.
But I think the real point of this thread is: I have yet heard or seen of even a 'lucky break' produce hard evidence of a ghost (or Sasquatch or UFO or...) A lucky guess at water that eventually produces 7 GPM is hard to deny - especially in eastern Oregon. [ October 21, 2005: Message edited by: Donald R. Cossitt ]
Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Originally posted by Sripathi Krishnamurthy: Supernatural topics are always argueable. But I feel if one agrees that god exists, they shd believe ghost also can exist.
Why? Isn't that like saying "I choose to believe X, therefore Y is also true"? Even if we are making an assumtion about X, I cannot see what leads to the premise X->Y.
If science cant explain these, that means science has its limitations.
Absolutely. Science isn't yet able to explain or measure an awful lot of things, but it doesn't mean that its completely useless. Its still a good tool for trying to understand the universe.... but...
So if science cant explain ghosts, that does not really mean ghosts cant exist.
... but it doesn't mean that those things it can't explain are given extra credibility because there are some other things it can't explain. True, we can't disprove ghosts, but neither can we prove them. At best we can give a noncommittal answer. Further evidence and scientific understanding of the universe could also justify a sceptical stance towards them.
Without proof either way, a definitive statement as to the existence or non-existence of ghosts is a fallacy.
Why don't you go ahead and apply for the challenge? I'm sure you could use $1 million, yes? the JREF probably wouldn't even require you to have a 97% success rate. i'd bet that even a 50% success rate would be fine, if the odds were 1-in-10. And forgive me for not taking your word as evidence of success.
if one agrees that god exists, they shd believe ghost also can exist.
but we DON'T agree that God exists. There is not even a consensus among believers in WHICH God exists... or if there is even exactly one.
Now, the OP wondered if "there really be anyone who is 100% free of ghost fears". i would say "Yes. Me. There is no evidence that ghosts exist, so i am not afraid of them."
Joined: Jul 13, 2005
but we DON'T agree that God exists
Hey, Why doesent the JREF also prove something to us!!! Why dont u disprove the existance of God??
Hey, Why doesent the JREF also prove something to us!!! Why dont u disprove the existance of God??
Given the qualities we bestow on god, it wouldn�t be too difficult to prove the non-existence of god as the absence of a particular quality is taken to be as its non-existence. I think JREF has more to do with supporting rational beliefs and fighting superstition [Fred please correct me if I am wrong, as my assumption is based on what I have read in this post.]
But all said and done, the above line of thought does have the limitation that it follows on the premise that humans know everything that exists at any given point in time. Even in basic set theory there is A and !A, where A is the set of probable events and !A is the set of all event which falls outside the boundaries of the particular equation, so when we say something doesn�t exist does it mean we are saying !A is a null set and humans know everything at the point in time.
Not questioning anyone's right of not being afraid of the unknown, it really is difficult to work up a fear about something which one has not encountered in the first place but to deny existence about things we don�t know seems kind off too arrogant about the knowledge we possess.
I am not afraid of ghosts, but I do not question anyone who believes in its existence. Maybe the person knows more than me or the person was dumb enough to be duped by a white curtain floating around in his neighbor�s balcony.
Can existence of vacuum be proved by science? Yet it is the relative environment in which most of the experiments are supposed to be carried out in.
R K Singh
Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Originally posted by Dave Lenton: Just don't expect any people who follow scientific methods to accept that the term "supernatural" or the phrase "my mate told me its true" can be sufficient reason to accept that its likely to exist
Do you believe in Black holes.
Did you say yes ??
Why ?? Because some of your scientist author told you thats why you are believing in him.
Its not proved that balck hole exist ?? From time to time you may heard of white dwarf is found or black hole has been found in so and so galaxy but nothing is sure, even who are saying that its black hole they also are just guessing.
What I am trying to say that, if there are things which can be measured and proved by science, then there are things that can not be measured and proved by science, and that is supernatural.
Supernatural is not related to ghost or God. It is related to unexplanied phenomenon.
You may find instances in science also where they cant measured things and they come up with anew word, say iota or black hole.
Ahh... BTW black hole is suppose to be area where all laws of physics supoose to not work.
Black hole cant be measured.
For me black hole if exist is supernatural.
Having said that, I am not talking about miracles, or walking on water. I am talking about supernatural things that happens in day to day life.
I have yet to meet a person who has not experienced Deja-vu. I have yet to meet a person who has not got up in night for no reason.
Just look around yourself and you would find that this world is full of supernatural things that science can not explain.
Oh no .... I am not talkign about ghosts and Gods. I am just simply talkign about supernatural things which can not be explained by science.
Why only when woman is pregnant she gets milk in her breast. Can evalution theory tell me what is the need of two genders in animal ?
A theory itself is imaginary thing and followed till it is proved wrong.
And when theory is strong enough then one instance becomes exception (though in theory that theory should not remain theory once proved wrong.)
OR we may agree that some people belive in one imaginary baseless things and other believe other imaginary baseless things. And for both of them world works fine.
Originally posted by Barry Gaunt: Where's all the dinosaur ghosts then?
The excavation work is going on to trace them and its progress is published in the Ghostly edition of National geographic.
I couldn�t subscribe, due to me not meeting the registration criteria for being an adult ghost i.e. dead for more than 18 years, but I will try to get my hands on the same in the spooky market and update you about them.