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Sun Certification is not honored !?

tapeshwar sharma
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Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Posts: 245
Well,
Before elaborating on that, let me say that I am not amongst those who take Sun Certification as a means to get a job.Preparing for the certification itself is a great learning experience and it plugs out the gaps in one's knowledge.

Having said that, I was surprised to learn from one of the job-posters here that even though one may have a Sun Certification as Programmer, he/she requires to give a "Brainbench" certification for Java 2 Fundamentals as part of their pre-employment examination process.
Companies try to excuse themselves by saying that Sun Certification may not be specific to their needs, but in this particular case it was the general Java 2 Fundamentals exam from "Brainbench".
Even after getting certification, I have given at least 3 such exams/assessment prior to employment from different companies(before you scream "sour grapes" let me say that I cleared those exams, but thats not the point).
It looks like a additional burden to spend like 2-3 hours going through this exam for not so few jobs that you apply for.

Any comments?

regards,
Prashant
SCJP
tapeshwar sharma
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Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Posts: 245

...no so few jobs that you aplly for...


this s/b "every other job that you can apply for"
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
Brainbench has a strong marketing plan. However, it is better to stay away from any type of "online" skill assessment from a third-party. Simply decline the assessment and look elsewhere.

A "Web" company should not have a permanent record of your skill, knowledge and ability. This permanent record may turn out to be a burden in the future.
[ June 02, 2008: Message edited by: James Clark ]
arulk pillai
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Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
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Joined: May 26, 2003
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Prashant,
Some people cheat on exams. Having you take the Brainbench exam on their property rules out this possibility.


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tapeshwar sharma
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Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Posts: 245

...some people cheat on exams...


Well, a Sun Certification requires you to be on a 3rd party premises with no internet , paper...not even your mobile phone.There's hardly any scope for cheating.
Whereas, Brainbench can be given from the comforts of your home.
So, you can well imagine how easy "cheating" is with Brainbench as compared to Sun.

I believe something should be done about this.
If a certification matters, than Sun Certification should supersede all other Java certifications/assessments for the same knowledge area.
Nitin Nigam
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Joined: Jul 03, 2006
Posts: 129
Hi Prashant,

There are cases when people manage to cheat in Sun certification exams also. I have heard that in Chennai ([Company] centres)you can get marks of your choice by paying 1000-2000 INR. Somebody else will take test on your voucher, and your name will be on marks sheet.

This is word of mouth.I dont take any guarantee for this info. Just that i heard it from somebody, so i am telling.
[ December 23, 2008: Message edited by: David O'Meara ]

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tapeshwar sharma
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Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Posts: 245

Somebody else will take test on your voucher, and your name will be on marks sheet.


WHATT??!! I wish Sun disenfranchises all such centers.
Genuine guys suffer because of this non-sense.
Disgusting and frustrating to hear that.
Well, then I can't blame the recruiters at all.
Nicholas Jordan
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Joined: Sep 17, 2006
Posts: 1282
Well if the aforementioned third-party / fourth-party or whatever it is does not get the Sun Voucher control information, be that as it may, from the applicant .... how could any site place someone name on voucher that not the name on the voucher?

The reason I ask this is because I had one William F. G****s on my TRW for twenty or thirty years.( now known as one of several top-tier Credit Industry reporting agencies )

It would seem reasonable that with the Brand Quality and PowerHouse computer skills Sun has that the revenue from such a cross-post would justify fast powerful response from Sun. It is a screwed up situation and if one case of counterfeiting can be proveable, I am sure someone here knows someone at Sun who knows where to pass the information.


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Edvins Reisons
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Joined: Dec 11, 2006
Posts: 364
My experience is that only about 1% of interviewers have asked me to identify myself formally. Others were happy to perform their tricks on whoever showed up. So much on the reliability of employer-administered assessment.
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
How can an employer verify a candidate's claim to being "Sun Certified"? Is there a toll-free number that I can call?
tapeshwar sharma
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Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Posts: 245

How can an employer verify a candidate's claim to being "Sun Certified"? Is there a toll-free number that I can call?


I think Sun provides a service that sends e-Mails to the prospective employers upon the Certified person's request.
There is a special kind of logo also that you get from Sun that can not be scanned.
tapeshwar sharma
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Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Posts: 245
Yeah, confirmed that on the certification Tracker site provided by Sun, one can publish his/her credentials to a particular e-Mail address.
Also, in a F2F meeting, recruiters can insist upon seeing the Original Cert., Logo and Card that one gets after clearing the exam.
regards,
Prashant
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
So, in order to verify a candidate's Sun certification we have to ask the candidate to have an email sent to us from Sun which will contain the candiate's certifications.

Is there a way to verify certification directly with Sun if we don't want to inform the candiate that we are checking their credentials?

Thanks.
tapeshwar sharma
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Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Posts: 245

Is there a way to verify certification directly with Sun if we don't want to inform the candidate that we are checking their credentials?


I guess no professional organization would share information like that with a 3rd party.
What is the harm in asking the candidates to do that?
Now you certainly can't doubt the authenticity of Sun's eMail.
Otherwise, if the candidate is smart enough to hack Sun's site and send fake emails, then he's anyways worth the job.
Actually,in that case, he wouldn't even be trying with you.
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
I guess no professional organization would share information like that with a 3rd party.


We verify academic credentials directly with institutions all the time. And these are professional organizations.

Otherwise, if the candidate is smart enough to hack Sun's site and send fake emails, then he's anyways worth the job.


Sound like sneaky and fraudlent behavior to me. In my opinion he/she would certainly not be a candidate to consider. Actually, he/she would a high-level risk and a danger to the organization.
[ June 06, 2008: Message edited by: James Clark ]
tapeshwar sharma
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Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Posts: 245

We verify academic credentials directly with institutions all the time. And these are professional organizations.


I'd be pleasantly surprised if Sun does that.
I always thought that only academic institutions like Universities are more welcoming to a 3rd party inquiry than a commercial institution like Sun.
And rightly so, because the former have comparatively higher social obligation.
I doubt if Sun would have the time and/or the inclination to entertain such requests unless you pay them.
The examinees have paid them, and Sun have gone this extra mile already to share "their" credentials with others upon "their" request, not anybody else's.

The hacking thing I said was in a lighter vein...as a comment upon the nearly insane state of affairs where establishing credentials has become such a uphill task.
regards,
Prashant
Richard O'Shay
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 11, 2008
Posts: 9
Originally posted by Jeanne Boyarsky:
Prashant,
Some people cheat on exams. Having you take the Brainbench exam on their property rules out this possibility.


Funny, I've never taken an entrance exam for a class that I already have the pre-requisites for. I guess it's because I have never had an instructor dumb enough not to see the absurd circular logic in claiming "I might cheat when taking exams, therefore my previous tests cannot be trusted". Let me ask you, do you think his perspective boss should give him a test after he is hired, because he might have cheated on the Brainbench exam?


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Henry Wong
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Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18853
    
  40

Funny, I've never taken an entrance exam for a class that I already have the pre-requisites for. I guess it's because I have never had an instructor dumb enough not to see the absurd circular logic in claiming "I might cheat when taking exams, therefore my previous tests cannot be trusted". Let me ask you, do you think his perspective boss should give him a test after he is hired, because he might have cheated on the Brainbench exam?


Interesting analogy, but I don't see how this relates. This is not a class that you are paying for. This is a job that is supposed to pay you. A three hour test is nothing considering some of the guantlet like (tag team) interviews, some companies have you go though.

Furthermore, who said this is a test you have to take after you get hired? This is supposed to happen during the interview process. After you get the job, there is generally a probation period, which you can think of as a very long test -- which can get you dismissed if you fail.

Henry


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Jesus Angeles
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Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2057
It looks nice if the company does this. It shows that they are a quality company. You wont be wasting your time, and they also wouldnt be wasting their time.

This is given that the exam is appropriate for your skill level. If your resume says you have been a designer on Spring, Hibernate and Struts applications, they should not give you a Core Java exam. They should give you something along some relative respectful level of exam.
Marcel Wentink
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Joined: Sep 19, 2008
Posts: 157
Like others say, probably to recognize the cheaters, and it's quite good that they do this: It discourages people to fraude at the exam, which in the end is benificial to us all.
 
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